Breeding techniques

coop said:
was this due to calyx size on the mother? or is seed size unrelated in that regard. Can you get different size/shape seeds from one plant? I could have sworn my nev's mango seeds where all different sizes and i noticed each one was unique compared to its sibling.
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I have noticed significant variation in seed size with my haze hybrids, in fact I have always been careful to choose my seeds randomly by just pouring them out the seedpack and taking the first ones, because I have a tendency to choose the biggest fattest seeds, and who knows what traits I may inadvertently be selecting out, by choosing the largest seeds. I always have to select out a couple fat ones, and a couple with exotic colors, and throw them on top, just to be safe. But I make sure the majority are random selected from the seedpack. My hybrids are so diverse at this point...

The smallest seeds I have ever seen, came from sensi seeds afghan #1 which actually had fairly large(but not huge) calyxes.

I know you despise this strain Nevil, What year was the one you tried that was so bad? The one I had, wasn't so great, it had very good bag appeal, whitish hairs even when dry(I don't like this so much but everyone in Cali seemed to love it) and frosty, it had a sour lemon hashy kind of smell, and the thing I didn't like about it, was its very harsh smoke, and the fact that it got you really high when you first started smoking it, but you built a tolerance to it very quickly, after a few days of smoking it, it barely got you high. I hate that. A friend of mine went to Amsterdam, and smuggled them back, he sold me six seeds for $300. two of them were afghan #1 and that was the only female I got out of those seeds. In the end it wound up being a waste of time and money.
 
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Nevil said:
Plants with superior genotypes come in both sexes. An argument could be made that certain traits expressed in female flowers are sex linked or even pedominantly carried on the sex chromosome. The male only has one X. It could be that males are more homozygous when it comes to passing on traits expressed in its daughters. The stamp they put on them is unmistakeable. Both Haze males A and C were crossed with NL5. Let the boys in Holland who have cuts from both tell how different they are. Another male plant that stamped all over anything I crossed with it was Ort15. It might pay to inbreed to that male. It was an indica powerhouse. You can because I did 1:1 matings.
IBLs will do the same thing.
N.
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I would like to pursue this a little further. I have heard that a breeder may give you a cut of his prized female but you'll never get a cut of his prized male. I'm wondering if a different breeding strategy might be to mass hunt for good males. Use clones of fast flowering females to check the offspring. When you find the best male , tested with the fast flower. Cross that best male to your intended target then repeat. The reason for the fast female and not the target would be speed. You've mentioned the Holy Grail. Would the male be more important in a strain of such quality. Is it a good assumption in general that the greatest gains will come not from the best Females but the best Males? Sorry for the repetitiveness but I wish in my own garbled way to be clear.
 
Generally you need to test males to discover their worth. It's not that they are better. They are just harder to find. Even reversing the males sex will only give you so much info. Yield is the hardest to determine without testing. Using a group of males is often the best ppl can do when there is no time or space to test them.
N.
 
Thanks. That gives me a great deal of insight in to how to proceed. Hearing this makes me wonder why breeding females alone would not be quicker to get whatever trait you're looking for. Baring the"Breeding Just Females Is Evil and Leads to Satan" argument.
 
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genetic diversity too ?

Nevil said:
Generally you need to test males to discover their worth. It's not that they are better. They are just harder to find. Even reversing the males sex will only give you so much info. Yield is the hardest to determine without testing. Using a group of males is often the best ppl can do when there is no time or space to test them.
N.
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a group of males will provide a wider profile of plants when used with only the best few females it would seem and eventually the line will improve towards those females genotypes. i am right on this?

interesting also: to pick a male that looks like the favorite female strategy. i have practiced this, or something similar on occasions and it seems to work.

of course, as everyone knows, if selections can be made while the plants are seedlings, then our small spaces could be used for rudimentary breeding. with this idea, does any linkage to desirable plants exist with the "sticky seed coat" (where the outer shell sticks to the cotyledons) that we often see with sprouts?
 
Hearing this makes me wonder why breeding females alone would not be quicker to get whatever trait you're looking for. Baring the"Breeding Just Females Is Evil and Leads to Satan" argument.
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It's a fair question. There's a whole fem thread and the question is still not answered to my satisfaction. I'm planning to do a couple of test fem matings, to see what happens myself. I couldn't get NL5 to produce pollen, I'll try a daughter. I think I'll ask Cabron for help with the tek. He seems to be getting it right.
N.
 
a group of males will provide a wider profile of plants when used with only the best few females it would seem and eventually the line will improve towards those females genotypes. i am right on this?
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More often than not it doesn't. An individual male can shape a line's destiny as much as a female. One or two random wrong choices and it's over. It happens with 1:1 matings too, but if you know where the defect crept in, you can go back and start again avoiding that plant. The reverse is also true, if you know which plant was responsible for a leap forward, you can double up on it.
N.
 
I see the Logic in that

Thats good info. Im doing exactly that this run. Ended up with 2 NH males. Both look great, but we will see.
 
GreenintheThumb said:
You should always put less selection pressure on males IMO.
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Why would you not?

If your not scrutinizing every bit of your potential cross than you won't have the best. Males are not easy to pick and the wrong one can ruin a cross. There is an unknown about males because many do not even flower out. Very little info compared to the info on females. All the more reason to spend time testing and observing males.
 
I can grow out 100 and find the best 5 or 10 females pretty easily and know all about the expression of all the traits that interest us drug pool fans.

If you want to spend your time progeny testing all the 50 males individually that's your business but it doesn't sound like the best course of action for anything that interests me. Or really anything that makes sense long term in any way shape or form...
 
Nevil said:
It's a fair question. There's a whole fem thread and the question is still not answered to my satisfaction. I'm planning to do a couple of test fem matings, to see what happens myself. I couldn't get NL5 to produce pollen, I'll try a daughter. I think I'll ask Cabron for help with the tek. He seems to be getting it right.
N.
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greeninthethumb can correct me if im wrong ,

but the reason im reading for reversing your chosen female stock is to see if it breeds true to the traits you desire ...
to see if they are homozygous?
 
From my perspective, the biggest potential problem with fems is intersex traits being amplified. I want to see if this is true. One of the biggest advantages would be the possible increase in yield, as until now, the selective pressure in this regard has only come from the females. Making fem hybrids is still a 1:1 mating and this is the fastest way forward IMO. Without an open mind, we learn nothing new. I want to know.
N.
 
oscar the rotund said:
Thanks. That gives me a great deal of insight in to how to proceed. Hearing this makes me wonder why breeding females alone would not be quicker to get whatever trait you're looking for. Baring the"Breeding Just Females Is Evil and Leads to Satan" argument.
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The short answer to this question: You need to induce hermaphrodites to breed females, and hermaphrodites are not conducive to sensimilla.

Essentially, you are openning a pandora's box, and once opened...
 
Nevil said:
From my perspective, the biggest potential problem with fems is intersex traits being amplified. I want to see if this is true. One of the biggest advantages would be the possible increase in yield, as until now, the selective pressure in this regard has only come from the females. Making fem hybrids is still a 1:1 mating and this is the fastest way forward IMO. Without an open mind, we learn nothing new. I want to know.
N.
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i should think amplifying the problem is exactly what we want to do ,,
if its there it will rear its ugly head and therefore avoid one going down futher lines to only find that out ... ??

oops edit ,,
and i should say amplifying the attribute also . as you have put it nevil .
we will also find the faults doubling up as well at the attibutes ??
 
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Donald Mallard said:
i should think amplifying the problem is exactly what we want to do ,,
if its there it will rear its ugly head and therefore avoid one going down futher lines to only find that out ... ??

oops edit ,,
and i should say amplifying the attribute also . as you have put it nevil .
we will also find the faults doubling up as well at the attibutes ??
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My concern is that pollen can only be obtained from intersex females. This may mean that if you can make fems, you shouldn't. But I don't know.
N.
 
Nevil said:
My concern is that pollen can only be obtained from intersex females. This may mean that if you can make fems, you shouldn't. But I don't know.
N.
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its my concern also ,,
but if you or i just use it to see if we have a worthy female rather than having to introduce a male ,
if it doesnt reverse no matter what we throw at it ,, well we also have found something worthy ..
 
No doubt you're taking a risk by breeding with females. If it's just for yourself no big deal. If you're selling the seeds your going to have to stress test the resultant. The decision. Is it it worth the extra effort in one area to get gains, assuming there are any, in another area.
Nevil have you looked at :
The Bonsai Sultan Method: Typological Breeding for the Non Breeder, Beginner, or Pro with Little Space.
http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/4-talk-s...ng-non-breeder-beginner-pro-little-space.html
This to me looks to be a vastly superior method to any I've seen. One of the great advantages is the large numbers you could work with to select in pitifully small spaces. Also you're actually testing for the desired outcome, mainly, does it get you high properly. Instead of, hollow stems, not hollow stems, smell good, smell bad etc...What do you think about it?
 
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