Breeding techniques

Well I am sorry to have to tell you that but I don't like this kind of informations.
It is way too much hypothetical for me...

Same thing for S.Weinstein.
I used to have long private chat with NomdeFluer.
He wasn't a bad guy but a lot of his informations were definitively wrong.

Peace.

K.
 
i need to go back and reread the ortega thread jesse, see if there is a source for my recall? sounds like i made a misstatement or so already in that nev said ortega came to him in seed form and could well be nl#2 if i am reading correctly? or is it an afghan cultivar crossed to a nl? and for some reason it is the nl#1 i remember. i defer to the more knowledgable here while i do a bit of research. peace-biteme
 
I did get another Afghan from him that was unrelated to A#1. It a was coarse large seeded variety with big calyxes, but lacking potency. I used that in the Black Domina (25%).
All the NL lines were from seed not cuttings, as was the Kush4.

ok so 25per cent is Afghan, I have the rest as 2 types of Ortega? the Canadian one and the NLxHP(or Straight OrtxHP??) one..

Used to be a seed bank called Terra Cava that had Ort 1 to 3, they stated No 2 was the 3 Kush type cross, the others were crosses to NL and HP.

but someone told me it was a number 6 used in the BD? and the same was used in the Hash plant? ie NLxHP so I'd go with a NL1 type as Ortega but thats just IMO. (All evidence says original Ortega was a IBL Afghan)

can someone please link me to JessEs thread. thx

Added: for clarity a great post from Jim Dankness

I've spoken with Ed Rosenthal at length about Ortega on a couple of occasions. Slightly less than a decade ago, Ed was providing clones for local dispensaries, allegedly approved by of the city of Oakland. I'll spare everyone the details of his subsequent bust & trial, as that information is readily available on the internet.

Ed was growing a significant number of plants-- several warehouses worth-- from his large stash of seeds given to him over the years by Neville, Wernard Bruining, the Dronkers (as well as from his own collections), and eventually distributed the clones around the area. While most of what came out of that warehouse were unique specimens (crosses usually-- though not always-- designated by a letter & a number; A-10 was one of the more popular examples in the area), some of them were introductions of older genetics, like Ortega.

I got very attached to Ortega and grew her for several seasons. In the years after she slipped from my grasp I've had a couple of chances to talk with Ed about the Ortega. He told me much of the same story as you see repeated elsewhere:

Ortega came from a local Oakland grower known as "Maple Leaf" Wilson, the nickname coming from the Afghani plants he was known to grow . "Maple Leaf" was a friend/associate of Mel Frank, and eventually Neville & others purchased a significant amount of Wilson's stock, perhaps through Ed (he never said it himself, but seemed to imply it... it's no stretch to think of Ed providing seeds for Nev-- see the "PEHT" listing in the Seed Bank '87 Revised catalog as proof of these sorts of exchanges). (One wonders if Sandy Weinstein is involved somewhere in here, but Ed never mentioned Sandy's name in our discussions and I never thought to prod him to make or deny the connection.)

Early references to Wilson's stock can be found in the Seed Bank 1990 catalog ("Original Afghan Mix: This seedline comes from the collection of the late 'Maple Leaf' Wilson, reputedly once of the first collectors of Afghan seeds...") and the Super Sativa Seed Club ('87?) catalog, where Ortega is known as the "Oakland Indica" (there is no reference in the catalog as such to Ortega = O.Indica, that clarification recently came from Ed himself, who explained it as a NL5 = "Basic 5" sort of thing). There may be other references to this 'collection' in early Dutch canna-seed catalogs, but my collection is incomplete. There's certainly no indication of these genetics in the '87 Revised catalog. Did the Seed Bank ever sell pure Ortega?

If you really want to pin down the Ortega Indica as being part of the "Maple Leaf Collection", a pretty simple connect-the-dots using some relatively recent Sensi Seeds introductions should do the trick.

Marley's Collie
From Sensi's website:
Quote:
After dozens of experimental crossings, the best Jamaican lady was pollinated with a pure Afghani cultivar from the syrup-sweet Maple Leaf Indica family, producing extraordinary results.
From Ed's 'Big Book of Buds':
Quote:
Jam[aican]2 (female) x Ort[ega]15t7 (male)
First Lady, Black Domina and Maple Leaf Indica are other Sensi varieties that make use of the Ortega. MLI is at least 25% Ortega (a female used in this one), as is BD (an Ortega male used here). If Ed's versions of the Sensi 'recipes' are to be believed (he swore up and down that they're correct, no matter what Sensi has said otherwise), Sensi Seeds has used at least three distinct Ortegas (two males, one female) in their breeding programs over the years.
 
Last edited:
Ortega and NL lines are unrelated.
To be honest, I can't remember exactly which father was used in the bulk of the seeds.
NL2x Sams Afghan was one, Ortega x Sams Afg was another, both were later substituted with a son of Garlic bud for better yield (NL2xGarlic?).
I'll give you the tip that the quality came from the mother.
N.
 
Ortega and NL lines are unrelated.
To be honest, I can't remember exactly which father was used in the bulk of the seeds.
NL2x Sams Afghan was one, Ortega x Sams Afg was another, both were later substituted with a son of Garlic bud for better yield (NL2xGarlic?).
I'll give you the tip that the quality came from the mother.
N.

thx for the info.

this means DP et al sell an outcross doesn't it, though its description matches something in the early catalogue ie a fast dwarf like plant....
 
Last edited:
Ortega and NL lines are unrelated.

That's a point of clarification I've been looking for. Thank you, Nevil! I'm still not sure what to make of some of what Ed told me on this subject (some of which seems true, some of which seems like total hooey).

Since it's been confirmed that the Ortega/Maple Leaf lines came from Jim Ortega, one lingering question is: who was Maple Leaf Wilson, and where was he from?

Unclepeter, Ortega 1-3 are post-Seed Bank/post-Green Merchant continuations of Nevil's work by another dutch seed company (Dutch Passion, I believe?). I'm guessing they would have appeared in the '91 catalog, if not for unforeseen circumstances.
 
Ok so I got another question regarding males....

I have read alot about breeders selecting males that produce resin. So when a male is maturing, at what point do they begin to produce resin?

Or to put it another way, when selecting for for high resin production what would be some pointers or general guidelines to follow when looking for this trait?

Thanks,
sp
 
I'm still not sure what to make of some of what Ed told me on this subject (some of which seems true, some of which seems like total hooey).
If he told you that bag of seeds he had represented the last legal batch of seeds that I made and he pretty much had them all, then that was true. He wouldn't be the person to talk to when it came to the breeding of those seeds, he's a writer/photographer. Otherwise, I don't know what he told you so I can't comment. I can tell you that from what I hear he has been saying, it's a lot of hooey. I look forward to my next discussion with Ed.
N.
 
Ok so I got another question regarding males....

I have read alot about breeders selecting males that produce resin. So when a male is maturing, at what point do they begin to produce resin?

Or to put it another way, when selecting for for high resin production what would be some pointers or general guidelines to follow when looking for this trait?

Thanks,
sp

In my albeit limited experience males are like females in that the resin comes not long after the flowers have started forming. I wish I still had the pic but I have had a male that had as much resin as any female I've seen and it was all over not just the male flower but the stem as well. It was a Tres Dawg by JJ-NYC, I lost it when I pulled that grow down due to a security problem. That male never even got as far as dropping pollen and it was already plastered in resin. But that was unusual, I've seen a lot of males that had very little resin.
 
Every day I wake up to a bunch of PMs from people wanting to know how I bred this, asking for help with their projects, seeking clarification on that, wanting a definition of certain terms and generally answers to questions that will require an hour of my time each to answer, not to mention the follow up questions. A lot of them even show annoyance that I haven't responded quick enough to their demands.

I thought the best way to be of service would be to start this thread on breeding. I can't answer all your questions privately and many of you have similar questions. First I get Chimera with his hit and run. He doesn't seem to like people asking him questions. The same could be said of GreenintheThumb. Self proclaimed scientific authorities who won't allow their practices to be put up for scrutiny. The occasional useful question is usually accompanied with the sneering scorn of someone who feels he is elevated above the under-educated masses.
Japfreek with his handy style of supporting detractors starts demanding answers and hurling abuse. A reminder;
You probably didn't answer my question because your opinion hasn't changed of me

But i'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, I think you're just trying to act your version of "cool" by talking like a big man but deep down don't actually believe you are doing any damage to the gene pool, but if you really think you are doing damage than you are a wanker. So which is it?

Fucking sad that somebody would say that and people would applaud it but the sad reality is that people are selfish and cheap. Maybe if seeds prices were dropped to like $10 people wouldn't mind going through 10 seeds to find a keeper, I certainly don't mind.
Shame on any of you that support this guy in any way and there are a few on record.
And the bullshit just seems to go on and on.

Another demand that is often made to me by PM, is why don't I do something about this or that person who is attacking THEM in one thread or another. Do you really think I can do something about disruptive and uncouth people?

As Shanti said, it's his forum and he decides policy. He's been at this for years now and I joined in Aug 2010. I don't claim to know anything about running forums. It seems an unenviable task and I think you owe him a lot for providing this service. At times, when I see the thanks he gets from people trumpeting their own ego, or worse, their own products, I'm not surprised he's had enough, I'm getting close to that point myself.

What does encourage me is the good people out there who have offered to help me in various ways. I thank you for that. Now and again someone shows an act of kindness that restores my faith in humanity.

I don't really know where to go from here. Maybe I should write a book instead.
N,
 
I have had a male that had as much resin as any female I've seen and it was all over not just the male flower but the stem as well.
That's what I look for as well as the smell which is usually just as apparent. Had you done a couple of 1:1 matings with this male, it might have been interesting to reinforce this male through doubling up on it in future matings. It really sucks to loose things we had hopes for, most of us know about that.
N.
 
I'm really sorry you had to write that Nev.

Come on folks, try to get a little perspective here for a second.

Nevil is one of our elders, we should respect our elders.

Like a lot of folk of the elder generation Nev isn't great with computers and he isn't a fast typist so it's very time consuming for him to type responses, people need to remember that, he's not one of us electronic generation types who grew up with computers so it's not second nature to him at all, he's new to the whole concept of internet forums and already he's getting jaded of them due to boorish behaviour.

In short, cut him a fucking break, he can't type 150 words a fucking minute!

Nev, maybe you should start a premium rate phone line then people can pay 4.99 a minute to call you names over the phone! lol

Maybe some people who actually want to listen might ring as well?

It's getting very tiresome that the people who want to listen are getting drowned out by those who just wish to shout abuse. It makes me suspicious that a lot of the people who are giving Nev grief are newcomers and you have to questions their real motivations for coming here and acting like their mommy never loved them and the world owes em a favour. If I was feeling cynical I might point the finger at a certain expat Californian but I'll rise above any premature accusations as it won't achieve anything.

I know Shanti and Nev are loathe to do it but maybe it's time to start banning some people permanently, give em a warning, then a really final warning then a fine, you didn't listen, goodbye. That would seem fair to me, 3 strikes then your ass is gone.

Alternatively, create a 'kindergarten' area and restrict troublesome tots to being able to post there and nowhere else. That way they can mess up the place all they want within their own little area and the adults can remain blissfully ignorant.

Ultimately there is no way to keep things 100% peaceful but I can see something is going to have to be done, sadly the days of a totally free and ungoverned forum seems to have passed.
 
Last edited:
That's what I look for as well as the smell which is usually just as apparent. Had you done a couple of 1:1 matings with this male, it might have been interesting to reinforce this male through doubling up on it in future matings. It really sucks to loose things we had hopes for, most of us know about that.
N.

Yeah, I was gutted, Tres Dawg is the Chemdawg D cutting crossed to an indica (Afghani #1? I forget) then backcrossed three times to the Chemdawg D hence Tres Dawg. It's a pretty stable line that would appear to be good in outcrosses judging by the work I've seen others do with it. I called him the Dawg and had big plans for him but you know how life has a way of pissing on our plans.

To double up, would you do something like this?

(Haze x Dawg) x (Skunk x Dawg)

Also, would a backcross also be worth trying to see if the high resin trait could be made truebreeding? e.g.:

(Skunk x Dawg) x Dawg

Shame we don't still have the Dawg around because it would be extremely interesting to cross him to the NL5, not only because the offspring would be likely to have a ton of resin but we might find out if there is any NL5 in Chemdawg and I have a feeling there may well be.
 
I like the idea of a two tiered system where someone has to earn their right to post in certain threads. If a newbie had a valid question, he could always ask a senior member to post it for him. It would sort the wheat from the chaff.
N.
 
I like the idea of a two tiered system where someone has to earn their right to post in certain threads. If a newbie had a valid question, he could always ask a senior member to post it for him. It would sort the wheat from the chaff.
N.

Although the idea has its limitations, it can also provide greater security. Subforums that are hidden until you reach a certain point allow people to be more open, especially with photos.
 
Last edited:
To double up, would you do something like this?

(Haze x Dawg) x (Skunk x Dawg)

Also, would a backcross also be worth trying to see if the high resin trait could be made truebreeding? e.g.:

(Skunk x Dawg) x Dawg
When ever a highly desirable characteristic pops up, it pays to back cross it to both parents to determine which one passed on the genes or whether it was the combination that produced the effect. In order to reinforce a certain trait from an individual female plant, I would try various combinations within the family as well as outcrossing it to different males of the same type outside the family. The crossing of opposite types is more appealing when looking for a blend of characteristics in order to create something different than both parents.
N.
 
hi all
hi Nevil,

I would like to propose an idea why not just try the good old way..Let the trolls starve, if we don't post and react they will not go on. Simple. This is a well proven method but it will require the collaboration of all including the newer members in order to work.Whenever you spot a troll do not even reply , put him on ignore if you need to , let his threads die.

As for the too much pm work I suggest people make threads to ask their questions , this way everyone gets his opinion and ideas to be heard , and we all learn. I m sure a lot of stuff asked can be answered by other members here too.
We also need to work on the FAQ system. Adimini created a button, lets use it and create a proper Grow FAQ . We can collect links to useful threads , categorized depending on subject. For example there are few different threads on germination or growroom setup threads , we call collect these links from the threads here at the forums and put them together in the FAQs. All the info is easily accessible from all and retrieving information will be piece of cake .This is what makes a solid info database. Thats why OG website forums back in the day were so succesful , the OG FAQs were full of any info one would need to grow and even experiment. Whenever someone asked something already answered/covered , people replied "check the FAQs.." Done.Just makes it easier for everyone..
 
Last edited:
Thanks Nev, that makes sense. I'm learning slowly, thanks for taking the time to teach.

outcrossing it to different males of the same type outside the family

Do you mean a male with similar traits that is not related?

The crossing of opposite types is more appealing when looking for a blend of characteristics in order to create something different than both parents.

By opposite types do you mean, for example, a Haze and NL5 - indica and sativa?

Sorry if I'm being a bit pedantic, just want to be sure I'm understanding ya right.

If that male had been truebreeding for his resin coverage then I would have had something worth working with I think. I still have some of those seeds, might be worth growing them. Still upset I never got to make seed with that male.

Isn't it nice (and novel!) to be talking breeding in a breeding thread!
 
Back
Top