Breeding techniques

Has anyone looked at staffordshire bull terrier breeding
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Do you see how type is maintained by inbreeding to the best blood in the pedigree? Note that Jolsons Blueboy is is line bred 4x3x3 to Sparstaff Dominator through a son and two daughters. It is significant that SD is on the sireline and it picks up a daughter in the dam line ( the X from SD is unbroken). This is a pedigree designed to produce a superior male in SD's image. http://www.stamtavler.com/dogarchive/details.php?id=20514
N.
 
I'd be willing to have a crack at such a database of Nev's work.
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This is where we need to go and I need help. But it's not only my work but all pedigrees that can be trusted need to be recorded. If I know how someone elses best cutting is bred, I can be clever in how I use it. Dubious pedigrees like the Imaculate Conception of Cheese wouldn't be of much use, while the Cheese itself might be if one could be sure of it's parents.
N.
 
Nevil said:
This is where we need to go and I need help. But it's not only my work but all pedigrees that can be trusted need to be recorded. If I know how someone elses best cutting is bred, I can be clever in how I use it. Dubious pedigrees like the Imaculate Conception of Cheese wouldn't be of much use, while the Cheese itself might be if one could be sure of it's parents.
N.
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The way to do it would be to have a database linked to a website, you would have various search fields and drop-down selection menus to search the database, for example, you could bring up a list of all strains with NL5HzC as a parent or all strains with Garlic Bud in their lineage.

First step would be to draw up a list of the fields you would want in a database, something like this:

Name
Female parent
Male parent
Breeder
Year Created
Otherwise Known As
Characteristics
Notes

On the Cheese thing, there was little confusion about it until about 2005, it just wasn't that widely known or discussed, then Big Buddha released his Cheese Seeds and wrote a magazine article about Cheese and the hype took off and the Cheese cuts proliferated, there are at least 5 of them now:

Exodus Cheese - the original, definitely skunk #1
Suicide Cheese - been known in Birmingham for over a decade, very similar smell, taste and high to the Exodus but beefier plant with bigger, more dense buds and slightly more potent, no idea what it is but I strongly suspect it's Super Skunk
Berry/Sweet Cheese - more indica than the Exodus, smells like wild berries, I am pretty sure this one has a lot of NL in it, maybe NL x Big Bud/Skunk or NL x Skunk
Frosty Cheese - I named it that, no idea what it is but it's a lot more resinous than the Exodus and yields more with a different, more dense bud structure, doobz is growing this cut, I've seen it around other friend's gardens too, I think this one is a newcomer as I've only seen it in the last year to 18 months.
Jah Hoover's Cheese - god knows what this one is, it could be the Suicide Cut, also claimed to be from the Exodus Collective and has stirred up some controversy

Reason I bring this Cheese thing up is to illustrate the difficulty with cuttings, how do we approach this issue? Do we just exclude any cuttings with uncertain lineages? That would mean we included cuts of known provenance such as A5, C5 and Sour Diesel but excluded things like OG Kush, Bubba Kush, Chemdawg, Indiana Bubblegum etc.

Before we start work on this there needs to be a discussion phase where we iron out how we want to do things and establish a set of rules we follow.

Maybe Nev should start a thread for this project so we can thrash out how we are going to approach it?
 
The Bullmastiff program has most of the functions you would need. The American thoroughbred studbook had the same problem with unregistered mares, they were included without pedigree. With time the disappear toward the back of the pedigree. Plants of unknown parentage could come with footnotes/descriptions.

I was alluding to Dr Rockster's story of how his cheese was created.

how we want to do things and establish a set of rules we follow.
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Kennel clubs etc, already have a constitution. It would be worth seeing how applicable it is. Sad to say that where prestige is involved as it is in breeding anything, people do all sorts of sleazy and crazy things. They make rules about that stuff out of necessity.
N.
 
Ah, I didn't get the allusion to Immaculate Conception! lol

I don't know anything about pedigrees and how they regulate such things, I expect we could just copy how they do it in other areas of breeding.

Nev, can you suggest a good model I should study? The Bull Mastiff thing I will go take a look at now, this is going to take a little thinking and planning methinks.
 
Nevil said:
Whether people like it or not, the standard practice for improving a breed, is to do close inbreeding to families that have outstanding and often extreme characteristics. Once these characteristics become fixed, usually after several generations, the best members of the line are outcrossed. Of all the outcrosses, often one will stand out (often the reason is because of a common ancestor further back in the pedigree). This is called a "nick".
Further matings are inbred to the nick and line bred to the best ancestor.

N.
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cheers nev, what you said above just sorted out my understanding of this a fair bit, ive been reading the thread since the beginning an' its been a little over my head at times.

cheese is from pack of sensi seeds skunk #1 baught in 89, well thats what most think. when were you working there? is it from your selections ect.
ive thaught about this for a while an' you mentioning it made me think it's a good time to ask.

G- force is another one come to think about it.
quite a big one round my way a while ago
i think it's a G-13 x northern lights x skunk cross, from your hands?

BH might be able to shed some light on that cut.

coop said:
i think i finally get it :p
there is some amazing stuff in this thread.

if you get a chance can you explain more about poly-hybrids.

Does a cross of 2 poly hybrids create another f1 cross, or are you just making more of a mess for yourself making a mutt?
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say you have a pack of seeds with quite a variety of pheno's. It parent's,
grand parents and so on are of high quality, many chances of somthing nice coming up. what would be the next step once you found a trait you really liked and wanted to lock it down so it's past on to later generations?

bare in mind its taken me 30+ mins to just write this post
it might not be the most clear of Q's:D

thanks again for yours and other's contributions to this thread an well most of what ive smoked an will smoke in the future.
 
in the midwest usa chrysanthemums are commonly called just mums, maybe cause most dont want to learn the spelling? lol. corn and mums are grown everywhere outdoors but the flower i was most interested in growing required specialized indoor equipment to sustain life and my temptation was to find mj strains compatible to this same environ. the orchid is this flower though i am fairly certain breeding practises are dissimilar from mums? orchids thrive in a humid jungle and known to grow year round, this lengthy season being the most appealing factor for me. peace-biteme
 
Yup, a random female out of a 1988 pack of Sensi Seeds Skunk #1 is where Cheese came from. It wasn't selected, the guys didn't know a lot back then and they thought all the females would be the same so they only took a cutting of one of them, they grew it outside in the border of the back garden and took a cutting off that plant, a friend grew it indoors and that was when they realised how much it stank.

G-Force was given that name by Big Buddha or one of Big Buddha's crew, according to what I was told, it was brought to the Birmingham area in the late 80s or early 90s by a fella called Gordon and it was just known as 'G' until BB's lot got hold of it. It's supposed to be a huge yielder, incredibly smelly (worse than Cheese) and incredibly potent with a knockout stone. It's definitely heavily Afghan leaning so it could well be a G13 hybrid. I think it was quite closely held until BB got it, maybe it's more widespread now, I don't think anyone I know has the cut it's not one you see discussed online much. Big Buddha has done a seed version of it, maybe some people have cuts from those seeds and have passed em round?

With all the old UK cuts you can say one thing - they all came from Holland as seeds originally. There are some exceptions like the OT1 ES and ESB but the rest will all be from seeds people went to Amsterdam and bought, I remember being sent to Amsterdam on the ferry in 1997 to buy seeds, several people gave me a couple of hundred quid to buy seed for em, the reason for my trip being they wanted White Widow seeds because they had seen an been impressed by Widow buds and they were fetching a higher price than the NL they already had because the Widow had more bag appeal and back then people judged things like that on the amount of resin, that was why there were so many white strains, people associated resin with quality and potency.
 
biteme said:
in the midwest usa chrysanthemums are commonly called just mums, maybe cause most dont want to learn the spelling? lol. corn and mums are grown everywhere outdoors but the flower i was most interested in growing required specialized indoor equipment to sustain life and my temptation was to find mj strains compatible to this same environ. the orchid is this flower though i am fairly certain breeding practises are dissimilar from mums? orchids thrive in a humid jungle and known to grow year round, this lengthy season being the most appealing factor for me. peace-biteme
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Orchids are far more diverse than that, they are found all over the world, not just hot, humid places. Where I live (56.5N) we have some very rare endangered orchids such as the Lady's Slipper Orchid and Bee Orchid, they are tiny plants with tiny flowers. There's another one that I particularly like that grows wild here that is about 6-9 inches tall and looks like a purple penis. Don't know the name of that one but it's a very pretty flower and a very deep reddish purple.

If you get into orchid growing and breeding I would be happy to find specimens of these wild English species and send em to ya, I'd be breaking the law to uproot them and take them home to be potted out as they are protected species, but I don't think I agree with that stance, I would prefer to spread the genes to preserve them.

Maybe I could colelct seeds from wild plants laet in season or tissue culture them?

There are farms here that used to grow hemp (one is called hemplands) and I spent many a summer afternoon in my youth searching for feral hemp but never found any, that's how I learnt about the rare orchids we have here.
 
all i know is its on par with cheese for the stench, very earthy, somtimes no green left to the buds, almost creame colour
one batch got me an a couple of mate's polightly kicked out of two pubs.

it was a friends older brother an people he new who had the cutting in their collection from what i gathered, but mushrooms got the better of him and he stopped growing, one of the other two i kno had the cut died not long ago:(

may well be from BB seeds but i think they had it a good while.

anyway cheers mate
 
If you get into orchid growing and breeding I would be happy to find specimens of these wild English species and send em to ya, I'd be breaking the law to uproot them and take them home to be potted out as they are protected species, but I don't think I agree with that stance, I would prefer to spread the genes to preserve them.
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the best preservation would be to leave them or send pics of them to Professor Richard Bateman. odd one but orchid means testicle from latin orchis
 
Yeas, some orchids do indeed look like a purple testicle. lol
 
On the subject of hybrids and stabilising lines, I'd like to say a few words. From the perspective of an experienced and critical smoker, the blending of types can only be done genetically. What I mean to say is that mixing pure Haze weed and pure NL together and smoking it, will not give you the same effect as the hybrid would. The hybrid is better! Inbreeding the hybrid and making F2s and so on will not give you a product that is the equal of the original F1. You may get a different version that is very good, but it won't have that perfect blend of the F1. Subtleties that come from the exact 50-50 blend of the F1 get lost under a layer of more dominant traits that are expressed more and more as you continue to inbreed brothers to sisters.
It's not that I'm against this tek to create an IBL. I know it to be effective, it's just that if you have a F1 hybrid that excels be cause it's a blend of polar opposites, you won't hold on to that by inbreeding to siblings. This method of creating IBLs is more suited to hybrids that are put together because of their similarity of type.
N.
 
about your example haze x NL, is this because the F2 will show a greater diversity than an F2 from P1 hybrids and so a a lot more of phenotypes ?
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The F2 will show more diversity but few will be the blend that the parents were. Nevertheless, despite or because of the lack of uniformity extreme examples can sill be found. From the F3 onward, things start to homogenise in a less favourable way. Usually, the smell and taste suffer the most.
N.
 
if you select F2 plants showing taste and aroma you like, it will be difficult to maintain these genes ? i suppose you cant true bred a line for aroma in this case...
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We were discussing aromas based on the blending of opposites and then inbreeding siblings. There are other ways.
N.
 
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