Breeding techniques

[bonbolos]

hi all

I don't think inbreeding introduces defects in cannabis, all the highly inbred things I've grown were pretty free of defects

cannabis being strictly allogamous and so heterozygote, to have an accumulation of deleterious recessive alleles you'll have to cross sinblings for a long time. You can always use revers techs and you'll see some nice loss of vigor after some time.


Nevil did you ever tried crosses in both sens (female A x male B and male A x female B) to see the traits linked to sex ?
also I was wondering if you used linkage maps for the important phenotypique traits

cheers

bonbolos

 

[joshuahazen]

The Nepalese I collected was also very strong, but strong is not the same as nice. What was the Malawi like and do you still have it?
N.

Hi Nevil,

The initial rush that was produced from the Malawi Gold has been compared by some of my friends to freebase. I have never tried freebase so I wouldn't know, but it is very intense. After the initial rush, once it starts to set in, I would compare it to Mescaline. It is very different from what I would normally consider a weed high. Much more intense. It lasts around 6 or 8 hours, and there will be no sleep, so, unless you want to stay up all night, it should be smoked in the afternoon, or before. Unlike most weed, particularly haze, which tends to make me self reflective, self aware, and self critical, the Malawi had a tendency to make me feel elated and invincible. As a daily smoke, I would say it was detrimental, but as an occasional smoke, I would say it was my favorite.

I do not have it pure, but I still have seed of it in the form of haze hybrids, it crossed quite well with with my Nl5hz hybrids, and the stonyness characteristics seem to be highly recessive, although because it is so strong there will always seem to be some bleedover. This bleedover is enough to completely alter the characteristic haze high; And the rare plant that breeds true, is truly something spectacular, and even more potent than the original malawi.

The original Malawi Gold that I grew from seed, acquired in Northern South Africa near the border of Botswana in a town called Mafeking, was not like anything I have ever seen, it had around a 14 week budding cycle indoors and had long stringy buds with long strings of single alternating calyxes, it started to bleach out and turn yellow towards the end of its budding cycle, and no amount of fertilizer could remedy this, so when you harvested, it truly was "gold", actually it was kind of the color of straw.

The purest form of it I have is 50%, and 25% NL5Hz, and 12.5% each of 2 unrelated strains of N. Cali oldschool giant Indica. I have these in F1,F2, and F3 seed.

 

[Skunkha]

hey Josh, howzit

Hi Nevil,

The initial rush that was produced from the Malawi Gold has been compared by some of my friends to freebase. I have never tried freebase so I wouldn't know, but it is very intense. After the initial rush, once it starts to set in, I would compare it to Mescaline. It is very different from what I would normally consider a weed high. Much more intense. It lasts around 6 or 8 hours, and there will be no sleep, so, unless you want to stay up all night, it should be smoked in the afternoon, or before. Unlike most weed, particularly haze, which tends to make me self reflective, self aware, and self critical, the Malawi had a tendency to make me feel elated and invincible. As a daily smoke, I would say it was detrimental, but as an occasional smoke, I would say it was my favorite.

I do not have it pure, but I still have seed of it in the form of haze hybrids, it crossed quite well with with my Nl5hz hybrids, and the stonyness characteristics seem to be highly recessive, although because it is so strong there will always seem to be some bleedover. This bleedover is enough to completely alter the characteristic haze high; And the rare plant that breeds true, is truly something spectacular, and even more potent than the original malawi.

The original Malawi Gold that I grew from seed, acquired in Northern South Africa near the border of Botswana in a town called Mafeking, was not like anything I have ever seen, it had around a 14 week budding cycle indoors and had long stringy buds with long strings of single alternating calyxes, it started to bleach out and turn yellow towards the end of its budding cycle, and no amount of fertilizer could remedy this, so when you harvested, it truly was "gold", actually it was kind of the color of straw.

The purest form of it I have is 50%, and 25% NL5Hz, and 12.5% each of 2 unrelated strains of N. Cali oldschool giant Indica. I have these in F1,F2, and F3 seed.

interesting results with the Malawi.

i worked with the two commercial varieties of Malawi (African Seeds, Afropips) and both were similar with Afropips slightly better yielding(one pack seeds each).

the first time i smoked pure Malawi it was a bizarre and disconcerting onset as well, but, the subsequent times, just clear, "trucking-type" high. overall though, the high was interesting but not as long-lasting or potent as Haze-dominating hybrids.

i used an African Seeds male Malawi with a female SSH and the offspring exhibited an extra clarity in effects but with slight loss of potency. hybrid vigor was very good and i enjoyed every plant of this cross, not killer, but nice none-the-less.

the 5hz X Malawi sounds interesting, how did they turn out?

 

[joshuahazen]

interesting results with the Malawi.

i worked with the two commercial varieties of Malawi (African Seeds, Afropips) and both were similar with Afropips slightly better yielding(one pack seeds each).

the first time i smoked pure Malawi it was a bizarre and disconcerting onset as well, but, the subsequent times, just clear, "trucking-type" high. overall though, the high was interesting but not as long-lasting or potent as Haze-dominating hybrids.

i used an African Seeds male Malawi with a female SSH and the offspring exhibited an extra clarity in effects but with slight loss of potency. hybrid vigor was very good and i enjoyed every plant of this cross, not killer, but nice none-the-less.

the 5hz X Malawi sounds interesting, how did they turn out?

They were very nice, but if you smoke them regularly you will build up a tolerance, which I do not like. In their own way they are the most potent plants I have ever grown, however, for me they were more like a novelty.
Like King Crab is my favorite food but I am sure if I ate it every day I would get sick of it fast.

My bread and butter will always be Haze. The thing I have always loved about haze is, you smoke in the morning, you get high, you smoke in the afternoon, you get high all over again, then when you smoke in the evening, hey guess what, you still get high, then you can wake up the next morning and do it all over again. The NL5hz that I started with still sets the bar in my opinion, even though some of those Malawi haze hybrids are much stronger. And by the way Malawi, and resulting hybrids are the only thing I have ever tried that I would say was stronger than my original NL5hz. In fact I have never smoked anything outside my own stock that comes even close to my original NL5hz clone. Fortunately for me many of my hybrids are very close.

What you say about the SSH cross makes sense, I experienced something similar, as I was saying that trait is highly recessive, if you were to grow out 20-30 females from the F2 and fastidiously test each one(you can't tell by looking at them which will be dominant for that malawi punch) I bet you would find one or two that were mind bending.

I have heard good things about afropips from some other folks on this forum. I was wondering, what does the plant of Malawi Gold from Afropips, that you grew look like? Did they turn completely yellow at the end(I mean completely yellow)? How long was the flowering period?

 

[Kangativa]

What is it with you guys that just dont want to listen to what Nevil has to say, I mean all he is doing is telling you his idea's and methods, exactly what people here asked him to do.
You also sit there and argue not just with him but with people that are trying to learn something as well and dont bring any facts to the table with you to justify what you are saying.
Ok to you people that want to argue, you can tell me what is wrong with these plants after inbreeding, linebreeding and 1:1 matings since the 80's and 90's. Have they lost any traits.....not in my books they havent, still pretty much the same from when I aquired them or bred them.
Now if the same people think that this is just a one off, then go look at Bushweeds thread and you will see that the plants he is growing are no different and they are from fresh seed.
Contrary to popular belief that plants will lose vigour with out outcrossing....here is some proof for you that if selection is spot on with the parents.....it doesnt.

As Nevil said you dont have to be a scientist to get it right, just a good eye and lots of experiance will do it.

This is a pic of my 4 main strains.

 

[british_hempire]

I've never seen a Malawi turn yellow. Mafeking is a hell of a long way from Malawi so how do you know your strain is actually a variety of Malawi Gold, wouldn't it be far more likely that it was something from the Mafeking area?

 

[joshuahazen]

I've never seen a Malawi turn yellow. Mafeking is a hell of a long way from Malawi so how do you know your strain is actually a variety of Malawi Gold, wouldn't it be far more likely that it was something from the Mafeking area?

I don't know for sure. Mafeking is a hotspot for imports and I was told it was Malawi Gold.

 

[GUANOIZDASHIZNIT]

Is reversing a male a good breeding trick? Could i produce a good strain if i reversed and inbred or outcrossed males with each other. Would the offsprings be hermies or reg seeds. Can breeding with just reversed males produce a super stud? and ? if x to its best sister. Can cannabis produce a yy spieces. Soz for all the q`s jst find it interesting and i`m a nwebie to breeding

 

[Nevil]

Is reversing a male a good breeding trick? Could i produce a good strain if i reversed and inbred or outcrossed males with each other. Would the offsprings be hermies or reg seeds. Can breeding with just reversed males produce a super stud? and ? if x to its best sister. Can cannabis produce a yy spieces. Soz for all the q`s jst find it interesting and i`m a nwebie to breeding

It would be doing it the hard way, but if all you had were two brothers, it could be done. I don't expect that it would be better or that YYs are viable.
N.

 

[Nevil]

If I was asked which flower has had the most work done on it and could be used to compare successful breeding practises to those I apply to cannabis, I would suggest the Chrysanthemum. It represents the pinnacle of extreme breeding. I joined a club to get to the bottom of things and tracked down one of the few living Grand Masters, Ron Seaton.
Some of you may be shocked to discover that he is not a scientist but he has been given awards or knighthoods by the government.
How do you think these extreme chrysanthemum varieties are developed? It might be worth googling.

Image Seaton's Galaxy

Purple Inspiration

Shirley Primrose

Louisa Pockett

Mount Fuji

Honeycombe

 

[joshuahazen]

Ron Seaton? That guy is a detriment to flowers all over the world, he is endangering the chrysanthemum population with inbreeding! Who does he think he is?
For Shame, Forrrrrrrrrrrrrr Shame!
Give me a break!

These idiots think they are so smart with their Enviro-Nazism.

If Gangreneinthethumb's idiotic reductionist interpretations of genetics were true, this wonderful, beautiful Morass of Humanity, and all the other lifeforms on this planet would still be little more than a bunch of pathetically inbred pre-bacterial lifeforms swimming around in some Precambrian muck. Thank God our Creator has a better imagination than he does.

Ron Seaton is a genius. Luther Burbank was raised on a farm and never had a college education, what do you think about that Gangrene? All the degrees in the world won't help a fool. In fact an educated fool is far more of a liability to himself and those around him than an uneducated one, as you have proven with your redundant recalcitrant drivel.

 

[joshuahazen]

GDay fellas , one thing thats always interested me about modern cannabis " breeding" is the use of so called " elite " clones as mothers . Not being a botanist I don't know if plant breeding has much in common with greyhound breeding but the latter is full of champion racing animals that failed at stud ( e.g elite clones) . Also certain breeding lines only work when crossed with specific lines while are useless when crossed to others . I also wonder whether close linebreeding to star plants is done . For example a selected plant with a pedigree of say a male with a pedigree of Skunk#I male x NL#5 female bred with a female plant who had the same NL#5 as a grandparent. This is known in dog breeding as a 2-3 gen X to NL# 5 . A cross which ensures that 37% of a plants pedigree is NL#5 . The resulting progeny can then be inbred to themselves or even outcrossed to say the Haze star mother to impart some hybrid vigor . I realise that plant breeding is done at a far accelerated rate compared to dogs due to the ability of breeders to breed 4 generations a year compared to one every 2 years for dogs . Thanks Everyone .

Hi BucketBong,
you make a valid point, and if you read the whole thread you will see that one of the first things Nevil discusses is the use of what he calls Progeny Tested Males. Simplicity is brilliant sometimes isn't it? I would suggest you read the whole thread if you haven't done so already, especially if you are a dog breeder, because Nevil's techniques will make it very easy for you to translate your knowledge of dogbreeding to weedbreeding. It is well worth sifting through all the trash, there are plenty of nuggets of pure gold in here, and Nevil is building up to it, so read everything chronologically, it will help.

 

[hempy]

What is it with you guys that just dont want to listen to what Nevil has to say, I mean all he is doing is telling you his idea's and methods, exactly what people here asked him to do.
You also sit there and argue not just with him but with people that are trying to learn something as well and dont bring any facts to the table with you to justify what you are saying.
Ok to you people that want to argue, you can tell me what is wrong with these plants after inbreeding, linebreeding and 1:1 matings since the 80's and 90's. Have they lost any traits.....not in my books they havent, still pretty much the same from when I aquired them or bred them.
Now if the same people think that this is just a one off, then go look at Bushweeds thread and you will see that the plants he is growing are no different and they are from fresh seed.
Contrary to popular belief that plants will lose vigour with out outcrossing....here is some proof for you that if selection is spot on with the parents.....it doesnt.

As Nevil said you dont have to be a scientist to get it right, just a good eye and lots of experiance will do it.

This is a pic of my 4 main strains.

hiya mate no point trying to tell them i have for years and im called a fool reality is many growers in the past selected the best fem and best male of a given line inbreed it 1:1 and made seed and did that for years and years and some are still working there lines the same way 30 years later.

I did it with many pure lines and saw only strong healthy plants each generation like there parents.

 

[Kangativa]

hiya mate no point trying to tell them i have for years and im called a fool reality is many growers in the past selected the best fem and best male of a given line inbreed it 1:1 and made seed and did that for years and years and some are still working there lines the same way 30 years later.

I did it with many pure lines and saw only strong healthy plants each generation like there parents.

Thats all right mate, I dont mind I have pics from the 80's to the present to back me up......the ones that dont want to listen to what Nevil is trying to teach have nothing to back them up and as Josh said the best is still to come

 

[Ouchie]

If I was asked which flower has had the most work done on it and could be used to compare successful breeding practises to those I apply to cannabis, I would suggest the Chrysanthemum. It represents the pinnacle of extreme breeding. I joined a club to get to the bottom of things and tracked down one of the few living Grand Masters, Ron Seaton.
Some of you may be shocked to discover that he is not a scientist but he has been given awards or knighthoods by the government.
How do you think these extreme chrysanthemum varieties are developed? It might be worth googling.

Image Seaton's Galaxy

Purple Inspiration

Shirley Primrose

Louisa Pockett

Mount Fuji

Honeycombe

This is fucking awesome, busting out the research material.

 

[hempy]

Thats all right mate, I dont mind I have pics from the 80's to the present to back me up......the ones that dont want to listen to what Nevil is trying to teach have nothing to back them up and as Josh said the best is still to come

I relised a long time ago people for the most part are like sheep they will read something and believe it even if its wrong.

I knew a guy that is an aircraft engineer you would think he would posses some common sense right ? Well i thort so to i went over one day found him going off his nut i asked him what was wrong he sed his head bolts keepet snapping as he was torquing them up i asked what was he torquing them at he sed 350 ft lbs or 450 was high any way i sed they should be around 70 to 90 ft lbs he sed no the book says it i sed its a miss print common sense should of told him this he keepet braking bolts untill i went got a work shop manual and showed him lol yea scary.

Point to this story is most claiming this or that have done what ? have they inbreed a pure line or any line for years to even know what there talking about.

Have they used created there own lines from scratch i dont mean grown out other peoples lines and threw pollen about ether.

Have any of you ran lines you grew years ago with out naming company's to find the lines are nothing like the line you grew years ago and ask your selfs why that is.

Neville breed most of the lines these people are using proof of his method has been around decades.

 

[Donald Mallard]

Thats all right mate, I dont mind I have pics from the 80's to the present to back me up......the ones that dont want to listen to what Nevil is trying to teach have nothing to back them up and as Josh said the best is still to come

heres a bit of info on inbreeding depression , though you guys dont believe it can happen , have a read and see for yourselves , no one is making anything up ...

Inbreeding depression - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Greezzy Guy]

I would agree hempy. When i finally post my pic of my super sativa haze i got in 1994
Ill be it probably has some of his haze in it,

Hey Nev where were you in 1994, and was any of your stuff back then floating around cali/nevada, and did you ever hear or have anything called (super sativa haze)?That was from your genetics?

 

[Kangativa]

heres a bit of info on inbreeding depression , though you guys dont believe it can happen , have a read and see for yourselves , no one is making anything up ...

Inbreeding depression - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hey mate I never said I dont believe it can happen. I am just backing Nevils theory on inbreeding, linebreeding and 1:1, proving that with good selection you will get rid of bad traits and retain the good ones without any loss of vigour, health and potency and on top of that improve the line.
I just put up proof that with old lines it is possible to have no Inbreeding Depression......What was Nevil chasing in his search for the grail.....old lines hidden in peoples vaults, because he belives that is where the answer is.

The hermie thing is interesting.....But I am not even going to go there with that one

 

[GreenintheThumb]

These idiots think they are so smart with their Enviro-Nazism.

If Gangreneinthethumb's idiotic reductionist interpretations of genetics were true, this wonderful, beautiful Morass of Humanity, and all the other lifeforms on this planet would still be little more than a bunch of pathetically inbred pre-bacterial lifeforms swimming around in some Precambrian muck. Thank God our Creator has a better imagination than he does.

Gosh I get so confused around these parts. Am I GreenintheThumb, GangreneintheThumb, GreenwiththethumbinhisBum, or Sam the Skunkman. This community is so hard to pin down.

So is your whole argument that some people's 1:1's haven't completely run themselves into the ground yet? Is that all you got?