Breeding techniques

[brock1]

Yes a percent will be selfed (3%)...and a majority will be outcrossed. Go read up on corn. A QUICK GOOGLE WILL DO IT. THANKS FOR THE CAPS!

wow that precise 3% then? maybe you should stop asking google and try doing some practical. yes your right a big percent will be out crossed but dependant on the amount of plants you grow. on a small hobby scale this 3% would be a lot higher if you do the maths. at the same time there will be natural bottlenecking from your so called 3% google said you get.

cannabis isn't like most plant corn included. it can have every sexual expression know in the same plant. so every type of breeding population has some relevance to it. whether its a hermaphrodite breeding or monoecious, dioecious, subdioecious, polygamy, declinous ect.

most people have already come to the conclusion that numbers effect the diversity of genes in a population (the more plant used the more traits past on) i thought we were past that now and moving on to weather bottlenecking is a bad thing for the future of the population or not was the discussion.

different strain lock in different traits or genes. what ever you want to call them. the discussion was weather there is any reason why we need to keep all then or only a few. as you should no with all your google help. cannabis has evolved around man like farm animals ect because off the same breeding practices being used as would on animal. we didn't know any other way to breed but the time tested way of selection for desirable traits (bottle necking) culling the weak with undesirable traits and breeding from the best. now if you think animals have no relevance to cannabis breeding why has it evolved so well through these breeding practises? ever before any off us here or even hower great great grandparents were even thought off?

all breeding has relevance to cannabis because it's so diverse in it sexual expressions. who knows whats the best way be breed it? i don't know anyone that knows for sure and haven't found info even on google to show whats best because of this. cannabis could evolve in so meany way because of its diversity which i think man kind took a little part in imoa through breeding by selection not out crossing to keep everything the same but bottlenecking to improve.

this is how i see breeding with cannabis now. we can breed for undesirable traits and have a shit plant we don't want through bad breeders. we could breed for every trait and try conserving what we have now but we will undoubtedly lose some diversity of genes over time anyway because that's how breeding work. everything as to evolve sooner or later through the expression on geno or pheno type expression. we can breed for desirable traits and lose undesirable one's like home aphrodite's bad taste ect and improve on what we have keeping back ups in seed form on ice as we go. just like we have since cannabis was first breed by man.

ho yes and as for you question on ethylene Nevil answered that weeks ago i think in the fem seed thread. so now you can use google try using the mns search its great. failing that try going to his profile and read post made by Nevil its nearly as easy to use as google. he done it on haze to make pure haze seeds. he never offered the pure haze seeds though i wonder why.

 

[brock1]

Hi, this is a subject I personally like, and something I want to do is breed male populations.. I have some posts saved that might interest you..


From Suzy cremecheese




and the thread were chimera mentions reversing males etc, i think he's been doing it for a few years now....

Male clones transformed to Female to judge male smoking quality - International Cannagraphic Magazine Forums

i personally think the expression of sex has more to do with the genes that are past on that make or don't make hormones in cannabis. that would explain why its easy to reverse a plant using them. this is just my opinion on it based on the info i have read and experience of reversing plant's. unfortunately i haven't made seeds from a reversed male yet but i have reversed a male using hormones. its something i plan on doing in the future to help with male selection.

 

[Nevil]

I'm just wondering what google has to say about how many brother to sister 1:1 matings can be done before what ever calamity we are supposed to fear occurs.
N.

 

[Unclepeter]

I'm just wondering what google has to say about how many brother to sister 1:1 matings can be done before what ever calamity we are supposed to fear occurs.
N.

ask the royal family on close inbreeding 1:1 matings.. or those in wigan/scunthorpe.

 

[brock1]

sorry but your post is really hard to understand for me fellow, dont take it wrong, i assume english is not your native language and iam like you

Robert Clarke wrote : " It must be remembered, however, that many useful traits that breed true are recessive. "

i hope it will help you a little...

thanks Azra'eil that makes sense now i think.lol i am English just a dislexic englishman lol. i have to go over everything i wright other wise it looks like iths in place's lol sorry. i get what your saying now though.

so you want to know how Nevil breed for recessive desirable traits then if i am right? so would i. back crossing is a way of doing it but not the best. anyone else have any good ways of doing it?

 

[Azra'eil]

............................................

 

[brock1]

I'm just wondering what google has to say about how many brother to sister 1:1 matings can be done before what ever calamity we are supposed to fear occurs.
N.

i don't think it no's. it appears to think you wont get seeds from corn if you only have 1 plant because it's not a self pollinator because its a out crosser. which is pure rubbish in my experience of bad judgement of frost's early in the year in my garden. but i suppose i am wrong google cant be. even though it says corn is a precise 3% self pollinator as well now that makes no sense ever. google not making sense imposable. maybe we should all select a number and put them together and say it takes that meany generations before cannabis is doomed by bottlenecking. should i start i pick 8. come on folk the more number the longer we have to save cannabis from bottlenecking lol.

 

[Unclepeter]

i don't think it no's. it appears to think you wont get seeds from corn if you only have 1 plant because it's not a self pollinator because its a out crosser. which is pure rubbish in my experience of bad judgement of frost's early in the year in my garden. but i suppose i am wrong google cant be. even though it says corn is a precise 3% self pollinator as well now that makes no sense ever. google not making sense imposable. maybe we should all select a number and put them together and say it takes that meany generations before cannabis is doomed by bottlenecking. should i start i pick 8. come on folk the more number the longer we have to save cannabis from bottlenecking lol.

it is an outcrosing species but monoecious.

come on folk the more number the longer we have to save cannabis from bottlenecking lol

to me its not funny, if you just like to see a few bright colours and no full spectrum thats upto you.

 

[british_hempire]

ask the royal family on close inbreeding 1:1 matings.. or those in wigan/scunthorpe.

The example you're looking for is the Habsburgs who had haemophilia and congenital deformities, if Queen Victoria hadn't been the bastard child of an unknown father it would have been a lot worse, half her grandchildren were deformed, for example, Kaiser Wilhelm of Germany had a deformed arm, large part of why he was a megalomaniac, he had a lifelong inferiority complex. George V and Czar Nicholas II, two other granchildren of Old Vic (and cousins who were near identical) wore beards their entire adults lives to hide their weak chins and overbites, more congenital defects. The modern royal family doesn't suffer these issues as they were careful after George V to ensure marriages were not between relations, Prince Philip has largely Danish ancestry and isn't related to the major royal houses that QEII descends from, and the Queen mother was also from outside the royal lines so plenty of fresh DNA in the last century for the royals, they did that deliberately as it was obvious in the early 20th century there were huge problems genetically among the royals of europe.

That's a lowshot about wigan and scunthorpe, but I'll let ya off as I expect you were joking! lol

If you really want to see inbreeding, go to Pakistan and India, it's a colossal problem there, particularly in the Moslem population due to the tradition of arranged marriages, often between cousins. The health authorities in some places in the UK like Bradford have been seeing huge numbers of deformed children in the last 20 years because of this arranged marriage problem, it's getting so bad that in Pakistan they are talking about introducing new marriage laws, they reckon some villages are reaching endemic rates of birth defects because of marriages between a small number of families that are closely related.

I hope that didn't sound racist, I just picked it because it's the salient example and there was a documentary on tv about it that I watched a few months back.

I don't think inbreeding introduces defects in cannabis, all the highly inbred things I've grown were pretty free of defects, but conversely, a lot of unselected, unworked landraces I've grown were a mess and littered with mutants, freaks and retards.

 

[Unclepeter]

I don't think inbreeding introduces defects in cannabis, all the highly inbred things I've grown were pretty free of defects, but conversely, a lot of unselected, unworked landraces I've grown were a mess and littered with mutants, freaks and retards.

Djs lines tell me otherwise though. sometimes landraces when collected in one spot have become highly inbred bit of an island effect perhaps.

If you really want to see inbreeding, go to Pakistan and India, it's a colossal problem there, particularly in the Moslem population due to the tradition of arranged marriages, often between cousins. The health authorities in some places in the UK like Bradford have been seeing huge numbers of deformed children in the last 20 years because of this arranged marriage problem, it's getting so bad that in Pakistan they are talking about introducing new marriage laws, they reckon some villages are reaching endemic rates of birth defects because of marriages between a small number of families that are closely related.

I think Nev met a chap like that with a throbbing vein out in Afghan or Pakistan.....

 

[brock1]

no problem brock
and yes i wanted to talk about the use of recessive males in Nevil and Shantibaba works as i heard there is a secret trick about that and shantibaba talked of some sex linked trait in males one day....but i think Nevil dont want to share all his breeding secrets and i can totally understand and respect that. i will try to dig the subject anyhow...

i think it has to do with male reversal mate. my guess would be that by reversing a male you get a female expression of the males genes to try.

for example you could flower him as a female and get a sample of what he would smoke and smell like by smoking the ripe female flowers from him. this will give you a idea of what he will pass on in regards to recessive female traits that don't show in the male population. kind of like saying bulls don't produce milk but have tits and finding out how a bulls female offspring will produced by making him produce it. so you test it before you breed from him with hormones.

i hope this is what your thinking of mate and help

 

[british_hempire]

Djs lines tell me otherwise though. sometimes landraces when collected in one spot have become highly inbred bit of an island effect perhaps.

I don't think the deformities in DJ's line are to do with inbreeding, one of the original P1s he started with had the deformities already present and he tried his best to get rid of them. Juiy Fruit Thai, the p1, was a cross of Highland Oaxacan Gold and Oregon Purple Thai, it is the Purple Thai that is the source of the defects. I think the main reason why DJ failed to completely eliminate the defects in Flo and Blueberry is because the OPT was the source of several of the olfactory and psychoactive traits he was trying to lock down and he couldn't select for those traits without inadvertently emphasising the genes that were the source of the defects.

 

[Azra'eil]

..................................................

 

[Nevil]

Grade 9 Biology.
There are four main inheritance patterns observed in genetics.
1 Dominant Recessive
If even one copy of the dominant trait is present, it is expressed.
2 Intermediate Inheritance
Offspring express a trait midway between the two parents.
3 Multiple Allels
Three or four allels code for the same trait.
4 Polygenic Inheritance
Multiple different gene locations code for the same trait.

Most of the traits we are looking for like resin production, gland type yield etc are not a result of Dominant Recessive traits.
Good breeders are keen observers who are capable of recognising quality and trends within populations. Scientists are not responsible for most of the breeds of plants and animals. Passionate individuals are and most top breeders are not particularly well educated. I've been hanging around breeders and clubs all my life and most of the advances in breeding I've seen have come from fanatics working with small populations.
Over the years I've learned a few tricks that seem to tilt the odds a little more in my favour, but I'm not inclined to share these tricks as anything not found in text books will set me up for days of unproductive debate with pompous self styled scientists whose main contribution to discussion seems to be ridicule and derision, without offering to share their own practises and techniques.
N.

 

[british_hempire]

Grade 9 Biology.
There are four main inheritance patterns observed in genetics.
1 Dominant Recessive
If even one copy of the dominant trait is present, it is expressed.
2 Intermediate Inheritance
Offspring express a trait midway between the two parents.
3 Multiple Allels
Three or four allels code for the same trait.
4 Polygenic Inheritance
Multiple different gene locations code for the same trait.

Most of the traits we are looking for like resin production, gland type yield etc are not a result of Dominant Recessive traits.
Good breeders are keen observers who are capable of recognising quality and trends within populations. Scientists are not responsible for most of the breeds of plants and animals. Passionate individuals are and most top breeders are not particularly well educated. I've been hanging around breeders and clubs all my life and most of the advances in breeding I've seen have come from fanatics working with small populations.
Over the years I've learned a few tricks that seem to tilt the odds a little more in my favour, but I'm not inclined to share these tricks as anything not found in text books will set me up for days of unproductive debate with pompous self styled scientists whose main contribution to discussion seems to be ridicule and derision, without offering to share their own practises and techniques.
N.

Great post Nev.

I'm not inclined to share these tricks as anything not found in text books will set me up for days of unproductive debate with pompous self styled scientists whose main contribution to discussion seems to be ridicule and derision, without offering to share their own practises and techniques.

I don't blame you. Shame on the self-styled scientists. I'd love to know the tricks but understand why you feel reticent about it, I would too.

 

[Unclepeter]

I don't think the deformities in DJ's line are to do with inbreeding, one of the original P1s he started with had the deformities already present and he tried his best to get rid of them. Juiy Fruit Thai, the p1, was a cross of Highland Oaxacan Gold and Oregon Purple Thai, it is the Purple Thai that is the source of the defects. I think the main reason why DJ failed to completely eliminate the defects in Flo and Blueberry is because the OPT was the source of several of the olfactory and psychoactive traits he was trying to lock down and he couldn't select for those traits without inadvertently emphasising the genes that were the source of the defects.

I thought this at first until I did some work with OPT related lines, I have now changed my view to an extent, I still feel the mutants with OPT are either a result of chems/radiation or severe inbreeding. and then when you think Dj did more 1:1 mating it adds up to me... guess it all depends on weather the OPT was colched or not.

 

[british_hempire]

I have grown OPT from reeferman and it was a freakshow, I suspect whoever bred that variety did it outdoors and selected purely for quality of high and taste and neglected all other considerations. OPT produces amazing quality product but is terrible to grow, only way I could see it being worthwhile is outdoors grown as a big bush. No idea if colchicine was used on it or not, maybe.

I think if DJ had wanted to get rid of the freak traits fully he could have, Texada Timewarp is an OPT hybrid and doesn't have the freakishness. I think the reason DJ didn't get rid of all the freakiness is because that would have taken him too far away from the olfactory and psychoactive traits he desired.

Perhaps DJ should have linebred the Juicy Fruit line to lock down the desirable traits but remove the freaks before he began breeding with Juicy Fruit? It could well be that DJ just didn't work with large enough populations for selection to accomplish the goals he had which were ambitous. Personally, I wouldn't have chosen to work with Juicy Fruit Thai unless I had the resources to be confident I could grow enough plants to have a fair chance of being able to clean up the line of it's undesirables without losing the desirables. If I lacked the resources for that I'd have chosen a less problematic P1 line to work with.

 

[brock1]

it is an outcrosing species but monoecious.



to me its not funny, if you just like to see a few bright colours and no full spectrum thats upto you.

i agree 100% in part its a outcrosser because you have to grow a large population of plant close together to get enough pollen to fill cobs from them. but its only the fact that you what full cobs from you corn to make it worth while. if it were wild it wouldn't be a outcrosser and wouldn't make full cobs and there for wouldn't be worth growing in such a way for us. corn imoa isn't a natural outcrosser. its only a outcrosser because of the way we grow the plant. but its not a outcrossing plant by its nature. unlike a plant that only has female or male flowers would be. having no choice but to find a plant of the opposite sex to breed. dioecious is the term used for them i believe. this is a true outcrosser. mostly found in trees to my knowledge.

i think you will find that i don't want to make brown if you want to put it that way. i don't want to be stuck with only primary colours ether because how your putting it is you would only see the colours red blue yellow. i want to see greens and orange and purple ect something done by mixing. i do like see the importance off conserving old strain. i think like said (most are now lost for good) so if you want red now you would have to settle with brownish red ect. its not my fault or Nevil's or anyone else here for that mater. the only people to blame are the ones that started the war on drugs ect. that's why we don't see good Thia's ect anymore. that's why we cant make bright red anymore as you put it. it doesn't mean we shouldn't make purple and greens ect.

it just means we need back ups something Nevil as said he's done in the past. most people cant select from 100's or even 1000's of plants to conserve genes. its just not possible. what we can do is sheer seeds and distribute them so more selection's can be made for keepers for breeding by more individuals. something Nevil is a pioneer off. starting selling seed all over the world so thousands of people can make selection's and make more seeds. we cant save everything its just not possible with every generation there is a slight bottlenecking effect. it cant be helped that's how thing evolve to there environment to survive. if we don't cause it then mutation's do. because if you conserving all the genes you conserve these to. some times for good sometimes for bad that's just how nature works. with time things change. in thousands of years we wont look the same as we do now. just like everything else has evolved. even crocodiles aren't exactly the same as that they were when dinosaurs roamed the plant. its something we just cant change only slow down or speed up. i think getting more people to make seeds is the only practical way we can slow it down now imoa. the more hobby breeders the better the gene pool saved if there were more growers growing Thia's there would be better ones around now. however there wouldn't be exactly the same because environmental factors can cause mutation ect that change they way a plant look ect like the saying goes it you don't use it you lose it ect. so if a plant doesn't have to make as much THC to help cope with the sun then you will have a strain that needs to make less THC ect. end result is a plant that makes less THC but can put that energy it used into something else. that's why afghans make more resin then ruderalis ect environmental factors causing genetic change not just bottlenecking.

 

[british_hempire]

It's spurious to discuss the natural state of corn as corn is not natural, it is man-made. The natural ancestor is Teosinte so if you are going to discuss how corn would grow without the hand of man you have to discuss Teosinte as corn has never grown without man's hand involved.

Also, I think you're incorrect about why Afghans make a lot of resin. The classic Afghan hashplant type that is short, squat and highly resinous is not natural, it is man-mande like corn, bred from the indigenous wild landraces and imports down the silk road from China. The short, squat, broad-leaved plant we think of when we think of Afghans is not Afghan at all, but introduced from China. The indigenous landraces of Afghanistan which are to be found at higher elevations above the cultivated fields but below the snow line as written about by Clarke and Vavilov are not at all like the lowland hash cultivars, they are not short or squat, not highly resinous and are sativas, I have grown a few of these types and they are very different to a lowland hash cultivar, they are quite tall, intermediate length nodes, quite thin leaf blades, often turn purple as an adaptation to the cold at altitude.

The classic hash cultivars as exemplified by things like Deep Chunk and Bubba Kush are the result of a lot of selection by man over a long time, probably centuries, they selected for the traits they needed - high resin production and drought tolerance primarily. If left to their own devices to turn feral, those cultivars would soon revert to being like the indigenous highland plants and be taller, less compact, less resinous.

If you look at old pictures of Afghani crops the plants weren't tall and were wide-bladed, look at pics from the last few years and you will see tall plants with intermediate width leaves, this is because the Soviet invasion messed things up and the farmers weren't able to so studiously maintain their varieties, in many cases they lost their seedstock and found replacements by harvesting them from wild plants. The net result has been a blending of the old hashish cultivars with the wild blood and an overall reduction in the quality of the crops, it will take the Afghans a long time to return their genes to the state they were in in the 70s and that is very sad, so much work over so many years ruined.

Think about it, you have a field of hashplants surrounded by a feral cannabis population. Pollen from the feral plants is going to get into your field. In order to maintain your hashplant line you would maintain some basic selection criteria each year when choosing your seed to plant. In most places, this was done by having one farmer grow just for seed then he could provide the seed for the rest of the farmers, the seed famer would grow a much smaller crop and carry out cullings of the undesirable males and females. They would place the seed crop wehre it would suffer the least feral pollen contamination, this ensured that the vbast majority of the seeds produced were the result of pollen from the males in your field and this keeps the line clean. If this seed crop is lost just once, say some Russians burnt your crop, you have to use seed from one of the hash fields. If they have been pulling the males from these fields then any seed found will be the result of feral pollen or hermaphroditic females, growing those seeds results in a poorer crop.

This is why the crops in Afghanistan now show so much influence from their feral relatives.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Why would you see any males at all?
N.

X Y

X XX XY

Y XY YY

Really Nevil? You don't know why you would see males in a selfed male population?

edit: hard to make a punnett square on here...sorry. But if the YY are viable you'd see 50% males, 25% females and 25% ummm well I don't know what a YY would look like. Maybe some people do.

If the YY don't germinate or wouldn't set seed you'd find 33% females and 66% males in the selfed progeny.