Breeding techniques

[Azra'eil]

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[coxnox]

It's ironic that Chimera should come with the criticism.

i've got the sensation that you got a problem with chimera since the begining of this thread you trash him about fem, polyhybrid...i can't find any fem on his catalogue, do i miss something

 

[Kangativa]

i've got the sensation that you got a problem with chimera since the begining of this thread you trash him about fem, polyhybrid...i can't find any fem on his catalogue, do i miss something

Yes coxnox you did miss something......But in all honesty what has this got to do about breeding techniques
Please mate lets keep it to the subject......nobody is going to learn anything from your question.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

perhaps you Nevil...could lay out a framework for how you'd go about several different schemes? working polys for best results, working Landraces for stability, preserving IBLs? something like that? then let folks ask questions pertaining to a set of defined goals?

this sounds good

 

[brock1]

i dont know, i asked you because i have read a few times ago that one of your technique in breeding cannabis is to use certain males who are recessive but i dont know more and it reminds me a thing shanti said one day, that he used some males for sex linked traits so im wondering if there is a corelation between the two ? it reminds me i have read that some traits in cannabis are only expressed at the recessive state, is that true ?

i am finding this hard to follow could you quote were you read this please Azra'eil. when you say your read [traits in cannabis are only expressed at the recessive state] do you mean were paired genes both make different proteins to express a trait? for example were a plant makes pink flowers because a ancestor had a gene that made red and one that made white showing a none dominant expression and a dominant? or where a expression your breeding like this if you understand. A and a and want to show the expression of the a gene in future generations by selection? (a expressive none dominant gene becoming the only expressive gene or dominant) there more than one way a none dominant gene can be expressed. your question point to my first example i give imoa but i am not 100% certain. i only based my first example on the [only expressed at the recessive state] as i read it. meaning it cant be the second example i give because if it was it would be a dominant gene in that plant. its the expressed gene only that makes it dominant if that makes sense? i would like to hear Nevil thought on the my second example if he could. how he makes a none dominant gene dominant through selection?

 

[brock1]

This just in: corn is an outcrosser. And it's a great plant to look towards when thinking about cannabis breeding.

were did that just come in from then? if you have ever seen a corn plant grow on its own you would no that it shots a male flower cluster on the top. you still get corn from it although not as much as if you hade lots growing in a small space. simply because theres more polen to do the job. but one plant will still make corn. hence corn is a self polinater and a % will be selfed if you dont chop the male flower cluster fron the top of the plant.

this just in if you see it with your own eyes in your own garden then its real. i have seen 1 corn plant grown in a greenhouse more than once and make corn so it must self pollinate greeninthethumb. SO THIS JUST IN CORN DOSE SELF POLINATE AND MAKE SEEDS. SO IT IS A SELF POLINATER LIKE IT OR NOT. TRY SEEING IF SOMETHING WORKS BEFORE YOU CALL PEOPLE LIERS NEXT TIME. I WILL PUT A SINGLE CORN PLANT IN THIS SUMMER IF YOU WANT PROFF.

 

[krk]

Also, I've noticed a growing trend the last couple of years of people starting to adopt seed company names like they actually run a seed co when they are just one guy hacking in a closet, you see guys with a couple of years of growing under their belts adopting avatars they have designed themselves that are a seed co logo with a name emblazoned on it like 'Shit-Hot Seeds' or 'Flash Genetics'. They all want to be breeders and I guess that's why they criticise real, established breeders.

.

Man thats so not fare to a whole lot of good growers/breeders. What you think Nevil started with some massive amount of genetics? And a massive warehouse? How would anyone become established? Without starting somewhere. The best genetics today come from small breeders who take already great genes from "established breeders" and work them in micro directions.

Fools brag,bash and criticise. A breeders sucess comes in the offspring being grown by others.

Here is an example....Nevil and Shanti didnt have anything to do with the origin of SK#1 nor Early Pearl... But they use them even today for Early Skunk. How is this any different than any other breeder doing exactly the same? With a good selection, and good genetics. Any good "grower/breeder" could make Early Skunk just as good as Mr.Nice, with some plain old good hard work. Plus I dont think even Shanti & Nevil are breeding outdoors, maybe in a greenhouse...But thats far from the same as outside in the elements far from civilization. All "big breeding houses" experince small amounts of unknown pollen contamination. How can you breed for mold resistance, pest resistance, branch strenght, frost resistance... none of which can be worked inside...at all.

The last thing I need to say is good guys like Nevil and Shanti....want you to breed...want you to make seeds....want you to use Mr.Nice gene pool. And for that...thanks Nevil and Shanti

 

[british_hempire]

I avoided naming names but take a look at some of the big forums and how many wannabe seed breeders there are now, and I'm not referring to the few guys doing good work, I'm referring to the guys with no clue who think they are going to make a big name for themselves and those come and go with saddening regularity, I could reel off names and exmaples but it would upset people.

Ask yourself this - how many plants did Nev and Shanti grow in order to make the selections from? How many matings did they do and then progeny test before deciding on the mating that was best? The numbers and selection pressure far surpass what most people could even dream of.

I'm all for people making their own seeds and doing breeding projects but there are way too many people who aren't doing this with sensible motives which would be to have fun, learn about our plant, have more seeds to grow and share with friends and preserve the genes so you have them in future. They do it for ego reasons, to make names for themselves, to make themselves feel like big shots.

I find it hard to make the point I'm trying to make without giving examples and I won't do that as it's muck-raking. There is one guy I am always arguing with who truly thinks he is a great breeder and spends half his time criticising established breeders, calling them liars, thieves etc. Thing is, this guy doesn't have a grow space he just grows 3-4 plants on a windowsill (or 'natural lighting conditions' as he would put it) and does more harm than good because he acts like he's grown crops of tens of thousands and sprouted seeds by the thousand. The internet has produced a whole generation of saddos like this guy and we would be a lot better off without em, honesty is valuable.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

were did that just come in from then? if you have ever seen a corn plant grow on its own you would no that it shots a male flower cluster on the top. you still get corn from it although not as much as if you hade lots growing in a small space. simply because theres more polen to do the job. but one plant will still make corn. hence corn is a self polinater and a % will be selfed if you dont chop the male flower cluster fron the top of the plant.

this just in if you see it with your own eyes in your own garden then its real. i have seen 1 corn plant grown in a greenhouse more than once and make corn so it must self pollinate greeninthethumb. SO THIS JUST IN CORN DOSE SELF POLINATE AND MAKE SEEDS. SO IT IS A SELF POLINATER LIKE IT OR NOT. TRY SEEING IF SOMETHING WORKS BEFORE YOU CALL PEOPLE LIERS NEXT TIME. I WILL PUT A SINGLE CORN PLANT IN THIS SUMMER IF YOU WANT PROFF.

Yes a percent will be selfed (3%)...and a majority will be outcrossed. Go read up on corn. A QUICK GOOGLE WILL DO IT. THANKS FOR THE CAPS!

 

[Nevil]

My purpose with this thread is to help people with their breeding. IMO the best way to increase quality and diversity is to have lots of people breeding their own variants of the best lines available. We all have our own way of doing things. I'm not suggesting that my way is the only way. It's the end product that counts. One plant can change the world.

As far as I'm concerned, any tool that gets me where I want to go is a valid tool. I've found that intensive inbreeding followed by line breeding to be very effective. A study of pedigrees of other species where pedigrees are kept, also proves this to be the case. Many people choose the route of endless outcrossing and also have their successes.
All matings are 1:1 matings, the difference is that with deliberate 1:1 matings you know who the father is.
Selfing is a possible exception, but is also a valid tool for fixing a trait. I would have loved to selfed NL5 to try and exaggerate the resin production. It didn't work with that plant, but it still may work for others. Feminisation as a breeding strategy seems to work for some. Cabron showed us some heavy yielding plants, bred in this way. The only moral arguments I have against fems is that it may cause hermies, but if you've tested the mating and it doesn't, well it doesn't. The other argument is that it stops people from breeding without using specialised teks. You could fix that by including an extra packet of seeds from a M to F mating that would even act as a suitable mate for the best fems.
I'm about empowering people, IMO thats the best way to save the genepool.

All this talk about open pollinated landraces, is wasted on me, I haven't got any. How many are in the MN catalogue? Mostly the people waffling on about it don't have or sell any either. That and saving the genepool is mostly noble sounding horseshit. The genepool doesn't need saving. Cannabis will out last us. What needs saving is good genes. I thought the best way to do that was to spread the genetics of the best individual plants. I seem to have had some success.
If Chimera or Gitt want to explain how what they are doing is better, I'm willing to listen. Start with what you are growing and how it was bred. Then tell us how you are saving the genepool. If you don't want to do that, stop giving me a hard time.

I'm not here to answer every question people have. People keep sending me PMs complaining that they want answers to this and that. I read all the PMs and I try at some point to fit things in that are relevant to what I want to tell.
Maybe I should set up a phone line where people can grill me for 5 bucks a minute. Otherwise, I'm starting my life over again from scratch and I have to try and make a living. I'm sorry if that interferes with your plans.
I'm volunteering my time and I can only give you so much. I hate writing and I'm quite a slow typist. Just this post has taken me more than an hour. I can't devote hours to PMs daily. I've got other stuff I have to do and like more. All this typing interrupts my smoking too.
N.

 

[british_hempire]

We appreciate every word Nev, even more so when it took you an hour! I'm lucky, I'm a child of the IT age so I type like the wind without thiking about it.

ll this talk about open pollinated landraces, is wasted on me, I haven't got any. How many are in the MN catalogue? Mostly the people waffling on about it don't have or sell any either. That and saving the genepool is mostly noble sounding horseshit. The genepool doesn't need saving. Cannabis will out last us. What needs saving is good genes. I thought the best way to do that was to spread the genetics of the best individual plants. I seem to have had some success.

You have stated this extremely well I think and I am in complete agreement with you.

I do have a small collection of unselected landraces and I only grow one or two of them in tiny numbers each year, the other 90-odd percnt of what I grow is selected, worked to be productive. Yes, landraces are fun to grow and explore the variation but often you have to grow a lot of plants to find anything worthwhile, I have grown so many plants from landrace seeds that were a total waste of time and effort. These days I have one small space to grow in so I don't have room for landraces, i need productive plants. I have managed to find time and space for some Colombian Golds but that is a highly worked derivation and quite productive.

I'm starting my life over again from scratch and I have to try and make a living. I'm sorry if that interferes with your plans.

I think a lot of people lose sight of the fact you've had your life burn down more than once and had a lot of legal problems, if they took time out to think about it, I think they would be less critical and demanding. I'm just glad you're back on the scene and even if you weren't able to do any actual work with plants again your experience and knowledge alone make having you available to talk to a very valuable thing. I just hope people listen when you take the time to speak otherwise I fear you will grow tired of interrupting your smoking to do something you don't find enjoyable or easy and then we will have lost a highly valuable resource. Chin up Nev, some of us really appreciate you taking the time to answer our often tiresome questions!

 

[oscar the rotund]

...Hard core haze smokers aren't pussies. I personally think that it elevates your testosterone levels...
N.

Do you believe this? Not trolling. I'm genuinely curious. I wonder if it's not the reverse,"People with elevated testosterone are hard core haze smokers". I know a lot of the things you've done in your life I didn't and don't have the guts(testosterone) to do. Thanks for all the great posts.

...The genepool doesn't need saving. Cannabis will out last us. What needs saving is good genes...

This seems to me to be the whole point. The good genes.

 

[JessE]

Yes a percent will be selfed (3%)...and a majority will be outcrossed. Go read up on corn. A QUICK GOOGLE WILL DO IT. THANKS FOR THE CAPS!

Nearly all the corn now grown in the United States is of hybrid varieties. Seed is obtained by crossing inbred lines which are obtained by self pollination through several generations. This results in reduced vigor and yield but increased uniformity in the inbreds. To produce hybrid seed, two inbreds are planted together and the tassels removed from one before any pollen is shed. Thus kernels on the detasselled variety are from pollen produced on the other inbred line. This restores and increases vigor and is known as a single cross. Two single crosses may be similarly crossed producing what is termed double cross seed. Properly selected and adapted hybrid corn varieties produce higher yields and more uniform plants and ears than the open pollinated varieties formerly used.

Corn

Corn is a self pollinating plant. This means that the corn plant has both male and female parts.

Source
aged.ces.uga.edu/Browseable_Folders/.../Sex_in_the_cornfield.doc

Corn plants usually self-pollinate (one plant fertilizes its ovules/eggs with its own pollen/sperm to produce seeds).

Source
General Biology

Typically, a grower plants one or two corn hybrids in a field. During flowering, most plants self-pollinate or are pollinated by another plant of the same hybrid, which is called sib-pollination. "Self- and sib-pollination create a slight inbreeding problem, which can result in smaller corn kernels containing less oil and protein," says Westgate.

Source
Growers Support Research That Supports Farming

 

[british_hempire]

Testosterone and guts don't go together imho. Guts comes from an inner strength of character, Testosterone is a hormone and too much of it is a bad thing.

I do think this - Haze and other sativas are often not enjoyed by people who are more physical than mental, they are most enjoyed by people who enjoy thinking and are open-minded. Meatheads and less sensitive testosterone driven types prefer indicas as the effects are less subtle and esoteric, more of a bludgeon than a rapier.

I used to play rugby and my rugby playing mates all smoked indicas, they didn't appreciate sativas at all, they wanted the obvious stone. I also went to art college and my arty firends all smoked sativas, they wante the less obvious more esoteric and subtle high.

Then again, back in the 90s we didn't have the variety but we did have a lot of import hash and weed, the weed was always Jamaican or African, always uppy and sativa, the hash was mostly Afghan/Paki, Moroccan and Lebanese, it was almost always heavy and indica.

 

[oscar the rotund]

Testosterone and guts don't go together imho. Guts comes from an inner strength of character, Testosterone is a hormone and too much of it is a bad thing...

I probably used the wrong word. I'm thinking more of risk taking. Testosterone and risk taking go hand in hand. I personally prefer sativas as long as they don't cause serious heart pounding. Don't care much for that. Some increased heart rate is fine but heart pounding and major paranoia is not my idea of fun.

 

[Nevil]

why are certain male plants better breeding tools than certain females

Plants with superior genotypes come in both sexes. An argument could be made that certain traits expressed in female flowers are sex linked or even pedominantly carried on the sex chromosome. The male only has one X. It could be that males are more homozygous when it comes to passing on traits expressed in its daughters. The stamp they put on them is unmistakeable. Both Haze males A and C were crossed with NL5. Let the boys in Holland who have cuts from both tell how different they are. Another male plant that stamped all over anything I crossed with it was Ort15. It might pay to inbreed to that male. It was an indica powerhouse. You can because I did 1:1 matings.

I think there may be some idea or notion that "landrace" genes are going to liven up the genepool a bit.

IBLs will do the same thing.
N.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Jesse-

You can't use the unnatural processes man uses to breed better corn to argue what corn naturally does in a field.

"Breeders produce hybrid corn seed by cross-pollinating inbred lines. Inbred lines are produced by self-pollinating (pollinating silks with pollen from the plant's own tassel) selected plants with desirable characteristics. Since field corn is naturally cross-pollinated (silks are pollinated by pollen from other plants' tassels), special processes are used to ensure self-pollination of inbreds. Tassels and ears are covered with a bag before silk emergence to collect pollen and to prevent accidental cross-pollination, respectively. Pollen collected in the tassel bag is dusted over the silk, and the tassel bag is fastened over the ear to ensure self-pollination. "

Nevil-

The argument that continued 1:1 matings is detrimental for this species isn't the same thing as requiring everyone to use OPed landraces. And I offer NOTHING commercially and I certainly can't save the genepool. Does that mean I should leave this thread?

". It could be that males are more homozygous when it comes to passing on traits expressed in its daughters"

>> why does this have to be so or how do you imagine this working? Some plants are more dominant and breed truer than others. Some of these individuals are females and some males. Why do you imagine that the traits passed on aren't expressed in the sons?

 

[krk]

I'm volunteering my time and I can only give you so much. I hate writing and I'm quite a slow typist. Just this post has taken me more than an hour. I can't devote hours to PMs daily. I've got other stuff I have to do and like more. All this typing interrupts my smoking too.
N.

I personaly dont know why you do it. It must be tuff as hell. I truely feel for ya. I know your time would be much better spent with plants, and smoking with friends. Shut your PMs off to everyone but Mods and admin. Maybe an old fashion book Nevil would get your ideas and breeding practices out there and some $$$ in your pocket.

Thanks for the glimps into your mind...

 

[Greezzy Guy]

Re read your whole question and statement, again and again, untill it is very clear in your head.

And I bet you will answer your question, But think diecious, first, and the whole xx/xy thing. Is why NEV said what he said, and you of all should know that.



"">> why does this have to be so or how do you imagine this working? Some plants are more dominant and breed truer than others. Some of these individuals are females and some males. Why do you imagine that the traits passed on aren't expressed in the sons? ""

 

[Cernunnos]

I personaly dont know why you do it. It must be tuff as hell. I truely feel for ya. I know your time would be much better spent with plants, and smoking with friends. Shut your PMs off to everyone but Mods and admin. Maybe an old fashion book Nevil would get your ideas and breeding practices out there and some $$$ in your pocket.

Thanks for the glimps into your mind...

I feel a bit similar krk, I cringe and think what the fuk is with some peoples attitude? Did their parents teach them no manners?

Anyway, I'm reading along with all of this and learning what I can. All information regarding breeding is new to me and is a direction I wish to go in. Thanks to everyone who is genuinely contributing and wanting to learn.

Cern