Breeding techniques

Azra'eil said:
back in the thread named Breeding techniques, Nevil if you are still here :), can we talk about the utility and the use of recessive males in cannabis breeding ?
i heard you and shantibaba use them, what is the secret about it ? some traits are only recessive ? and maybe it has something to do with sex linked traits too ?
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how does this work Neville...for example are the recessive genes linked to the fact that plants may have similar origins like the fact that Afghan and Skunk #1 would relate in the sense that skunk #1 has some afghan and in varieties like Shit you can find very Afghan dom plants, is this the recession in traits you speak of or something else? I'm very interested
 
Interesting thread but it got pretty derailed. I'll go ahead and ask my question here as it is the most relevant thread.

Would anyone still consider these breeding regimes below as a good starting basis? Also, does anyone know if any companies today are doing it like this (P1)?

old scans from RCC's MJ Botany I think and elsewhere

919GWS2.jpg


919RCC.JPG
 
GreenintheThumb said:
Evolution works because of mutation. If that's how you breed why don't you just grow hops and wait for a novel mutation that synthesizes thc?

Breeders only have the diversity maintained to work with. It is important to continue to maintain as much diversity as possible. A continual methodology of 1:1 matings is detrimental to our pool because it destroys this diversity. And the genetic drift that occurs when continually selecting the best 2 of 40 blows my mind.
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Correction if I may?

Evolution works because of selection, be it natural or otherwise and mutation.

Natural meaning on earth and without man's hand AND intelligence guiding things. I add that as man has in the past unconsciously shaped evolution by eating seeds and pooping them out later.
 
hi all

IMO the scheme doesn't mean anything by itself, according to your project you will use different types of crosses and pairing.

Instead of using siblings to more or less stabilise the line, why not just useself polination now that techs are well developed creating isogenic lines male and female to combine them and create an normal "XY" ibl. creating various populations this way with good recombination capacities is a good start to develop good hybrids.

IMO the F2 generation, if you want to do it good, must be really big; starting from this you can allready start developing loads of new populations using simple recurent selection and start stabilise them to creat good parental lines especially if you start with a batch of 10 or more good (very different) parent to start the projects. (very big job already to phenotype everything to have a better view of your diversity).

And then it doesn't show all the tests and crosses to check the various traits and capacity to recombine that must be done before .


Correction if I may?

Evolution works because of selection, be it natural or otherwise and mutation.
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evolution works because of mutations that were selected because they give to the bearer a advantage for reproduction under a certain environment at a certain time over other indivuduals.


cheers

bonbolos
 
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As I see it, people are viewing things from a perspective that hybrids need to be stabilised and must become IBLs. It's the only way I can account for the irrational idea that 1:1 matings are deleterious to the genepool. Gitt's population mechanics ideas might be applicable to that, but the fact is that we are not dealing with a closed stud book like race horses or many of the dog breeds. What we have is an open book and there are still separate lines, landraces and IBLs yet to be discovered. This being the case, I can't see what all the fuss is about.
In order to be of service to the customer, we need to provide seeds that will give superior and predictable results. Most customers are not breeders and so it isn't all that important to them if it is true breeding or not.
What matters is how good is the plant that they grow and what's it smoke like. That's what wins cups.
How breeders can deal with these polyhybrids was where I was trying to go with this.
N.
 
Actually Nev, it just occured to me that the market has altered a little since your heyday. Back then, I expect most people wanted seeds that produced great plants first and foremost and weren't concerned if they were F1, IBL, whatever, they wanted the maximum performance. These days, a lot of people like to dabble in making their own crosses and have become more informed about breeding, I expect it is mostly these people who are wanting IBLs because they want to breed with them. Also, I've noticed a growing trend the last couple of years of people starting to adopt seed company names like they actually run a seed co when they are just one guy hacking in a closet, you see guys with a couple of years of growing under their belts adopting avatars they have designed themselves that are a seed co logo with a name emblazoned on it like 'Shit-Hot Seeds' or 'Flash Genetics'. They all want to be breeders and I guess that's why they criticise real, established breeders.

Nev, do you think SSH should be stabilised into an IBL? I certainly don't, all those phenos are a godo thing imho, I like having the variation there to sort through and as long as the quality is consistently good throught the phenos, then I see no reason to moan about the variation, I welcome the variation.
 
Nevil said:
As I see it, people are viewing things from a perspective that hybrids need to be stabilised and must become IBLs. It's the only way I can account for the irrational idea that 1:1 matings are deleterious to the genepool. Gitt's population mechanics ideas might be applicable to that, but the fact is that we are not dealing with a closed stud book like race horses or many of the dog breeds. What we have is an open book and there are still separate lines, landraces and IBLs yet to be discovered. This being the case, I can't see what all the fuss is about.
In order to be of service to the customer, we need to provide seeds that will give superior and predictable results. Most customers are not breeders and so it isn't all that important to them if it is true breeding or not.
What matters is how good is the plant that they grow and what's it smoke like. That's what wins cups.
How breeders can deal with these polyhybrids was where I was trying to go with this.
N.
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Ah well...this explains alot.

Personally, I'm a so called "hack". i like getting very good fairly stable genetics...working with them myself and slowly making them my own "landrace" if you will. acclimatizing them and sorting through the plants to end up with what I want. much the same i do with vegetables. if i wanted the newest best thing...i'd buy it and NOT concern myself with breeding. why stop now after 25 years of good results?

for me..personally... poly's are a pain...so much variation to sort trough. lots of wasted time on expressions that wont work in my Outdoor environment.

but thats me. I think between this post of yours Nevil, and British hempires following post, it sorts things out quite a bit.

I think BH hit it spot on...I bet 90% of the folks asking questions are "hobby breeders"...like myself.

perhaps you Nevil...could lay out a framework for how you'd go about several different schemes? working polys for best results, working Landraces for stability, preserving IBLs? something like that? then let folks ask questions pertaining to a set of defined goals?

Take Care, North.
 
I blame all the closet hacks for marketing a bunch of bs when it comes to what is good genetics. Specifically reeferman when he first came back on the scene after his time in the can marketed the shit out of landrace and ibl to the point that many seed buyers still believe these are superior performers to hybrids which obviously could not be further from the truth.

I believe that what chimera, hyb, GITT, Tom Hill etc. are suggesting is that repeated 1:1 matings is pissing in the gene pool because it creates a huge bottleneck and fixes deleterious recessives is a seedline (dj shorts lines being a prime example) NOT that Nevil and other breeders are somehow responsible for mantaining the gene pool and preserving landraces. Like it or not there is no shortage of amateur "breeders" making selections out of their 10 pack and re-offering them for sale. This is why many of chimeras selections are the result of multiple males hit to a clone etc. and for the record I have grown some of chimeras releases that used multiple males in the release and noticed no difference in the overall consistency to any of the 1:1 releases I have tried mind you he appears to have access to some high tech equipment and large grow out space compared to most.

I agree with their point but believe in business too and for sure think it is bs to hold Nevil or anyone else to account for this.. I don't recall him ever calling himself a preservation society.

I personally believe the extreme blandness of most weed in amsterdam is largely a result of continued (post seedbank) 1:1 matings. What worked for nevil starting from fairly unworked lines and landraces as the P1's starts to tear apart the multi gene traits we want further down the line especially when it is done over and over by mostly people with little knowledge on the matter, the strain's lineage, etc. How can a unique multi-allele trait like for instance the flavour of sour diesel can be carried through several generations using only two parents?? Meiosis is random and these traits get pulled apart each time. This is one of the main reasons it is rare that the progeny of a sour diesel clone is as good as it's mother.

I don't blame Nevil or any other breeder for anything that happens to the gene pool. I do blame the techniques they use though.

I have said my piece and will let nevil get on with the story of how he breeds, the results of which I enjoy every night even if I disagree with the long term viability of some of the methods.
 
Azra'eil said:
oh and by the way, thanks a lot to have fucked a thread who could be readable and where one of the best pionner of the cannabis breeding scene shares his opinion.
really, british empire said the good words : " IT SUCKS." :mad:
how many of you have studied genetics ? and how many are breeding cannabis ? how many are growing more than 500 plants at a time ?
pfff......get an education fellows
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hey azra , thanks for the link there ,, ill check it out ,, figured the numbers would be up around that ,, just sharing the pollen amongst the girls a little equally will be a bit more a challange i guess ...

i am doing all you mentioned above ,, studying , breeding and usually over 500 plants , its definately a numbers game ...
 
"perhaps you Nevil...could lay out a framework for how you'd go about several different schemes? working polys for best results, working Landraces for stability, preserving IBLs? something like that? then let folks ask questions pertaining to a set of defined goals?"

Can we go in this direction North suggested?
 
kashrocks said:
B-h is right.
I am leaving the online community for good.

I wish you all a Happy New Year.

Peace.

Kashgari
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Hi Kash,
Please stay with us Kash, as MNS definitely needs more members like yourself contributing to our forum! It is a shame when quality members feel like they have to leave their home because squaters have settled in and taken over the house those quality members helped build in the first place! A vast majority of the members on the forum today have no idea how significant the contributions of a Kashgari or Hempy etc. have been to the marijuana community. These are men with true passions for the plant, who have spent significant amounts of time helping others on these forums and standing up for what is right! We could all take a page or two out of members like Kashgari and Hempys books! I hope you reconsider Kash. :)
 
Thoughts on backcrossing to preserve traits

Could back-crossing be used to preserve some of these landraces. I'm of the opinion "How can I miss what I never had". :(I like Mr. Nice's seeds. I haven't a clue about some of the aforementioned "extinct." landraces. I guess they are gone with the wind like some of the past seed banks or maybe we are smoking those genetics today. Could they have just been incorporated and recessed in todays breeds just waiting to reappear and be rediscovered in the future? Those traits and genes had to come from somewhere. Me thinks them genes and chromosomes are still here lurking somewhere in the dna of our plants just waiting for the right environment to re-emerge.:p jmo.:rolleyes:
 
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I'd personally like to see Kashrocs come back. That thread where he caught Sam out in a lie and hammered him until he tapped out and cried for a moderator, was deeply satisfying to me. It takes a lot to stand up to Sam the way he did.

Hard core haze smokers aren't pussies. I personally think that it elevates your testosterone levels. As such, we are all pretty quick to rise to a perceived challenge, but often we get it wrong. Kashrocks, BH and JessE have all earned my respect in some ways. I'd take it as a personal favour, if you'd all drop the animosity and start again. We're the good guys you know.
N.
 
Me too, I liked the first posts of kash and it looked like he knows his shit. Turn based text communication is a pain in the butt and I think some folks still have to learn that.

I bet my ass, chatting together realtime would be much more conftable. But an unmanagable spam-mess haha ;).

Back to topic: b_h fits some pieces together. Breeding for growers is diffrent from breeding for breeders. As others said, can somebody make money in breeding for breeders? Is there a big enough of a market? And in the end, isn't it the breeders own desicion what to do? That's what Im thinking...

And on with the thread...

"perhaps you Nevil...could lay out a framework for how you'd go about several different schemes? working polys for best results, working Landraces for stability, preserving IBLs? something like that? then let folks ask questions pertaining to a set of defined goals?"

Can we go in this direction North suggested?
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Personally I enjoy reading from this forum everyday and its sad that we cant all have a civil chat about something near and dear to all of us.
I am not a breeder,but a grower.But I depend on breeders like Nev and Shanti to find and preserve what I consider the worlds best medicine.If it takes 5-6 months of growing out a variety just to find out its not what you like,well thats a lot of time wasted.
 
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Recessive traits can be brought forward through judicious use of line breeding. I'm getting to this. Otherwise I'm not sure what you mean by recessive males. Recessive for what?
N.
 
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