Breeding techniques

Evolution works because of mutation. If that's how you breed why don't you just grow hops and wait for a novel mutation that synthesizes thc?

Breeders only have the diversity maintained to work with. It is important to continue to maintain as much diversity as possible. A continual methodology of 1:1 matings is detrimental to our pool because it destroys this diversity. And the genetic drift that occurs when continually selecting the best 2 of 40 blows my mind.
 
GreenintheThumb said:
...btw recombinant dna is artificial and takes place through gene splicing. I think you're talking about genetic recombination...
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Thanks for correcting me. I mixed up my terminology, too much Alaskan Thunderfuck, sorry. I was referring to the mutation that occurs naturally through the recombination of genes. A hybrid cross is much more likely to create mutations, and generally these are positive mutations. This is how new subspecies, and even in rare cases, new species, are created.
 
conditional

GreenintheThumb said:
Evolution works because of mutation. If that's how you breed why don't you just grow hops and wait for a novel mutation that synthesizes thc?

Breeders only have the diversity maintained to work with. It is important to continue to maintain as much diversity as possible. A continual methodology of 1:1 matings is detrimental to our pool because it destroys this diversity. And the genetic drift that occurs when continually selecting the best 2 of 40 blows my mind.
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if, and only if Nevil possessed exclusively all the planet's Cannabis gene pool.:rolleyes:

the best way to save the genes is to support legalization so Cannabis populations won't be eradicated.;)
 
This thread really annoys me, quite a few people talking like they know it all and displaying big egos and bad attitudes, I just feel sorry for Nev for having to respond to this drivel, those criticising him should hang their heads in shame as they are talking out of their arses, I wonder if any of the critics have spent time sat in a jail cell for growing? Nev has, I have, so we can both tell you categorically - it fucking sucks. Quite frankly. unless you've walked in Nev's shoes then you should STFU with the criticism. Shanti would agree I think, he's suffered imprisonment for the same reasons and didn't let it stop him. Really, people should not criticise those who have put their arses on the line, if Nev and Shanti hadn't been prepared to risk losing their liberty and spending time in a cell then the commercial genepool would be in far worse straits.

Several people need to seriously find some new perspective on this subject before making themselves look even more stupid, apologising to Nev for being so obtuse and failing to see things from another perspective other than their own, if I were him I'd be rather pissed off.

So can we start 2011 off on a positive tip please and move on from this distasteful incident.
 
GreenintheThumb said:
Breeders only have the diversity maintained to work with. It is important to continue to maintain as much diversity as possible. A continual methodology of 1:1 matings is detrimental to our pool because it destroys this diversity. And the genetic drift that occurs when continually selecting the best 2 of 40 blows my mind.
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I simply don't agree with you. In genetic drift, a population experiences a change in the frequency of a given allele, prompted by random luck. This differs from selection, in which allelic frequency is altered based on the fittest genes being selected to reproduce and the weaker genes being eliminated.
When you are breeding you are selecting the traits, you are adapting the strain to fit your personal needs as a breeder.

If you are randomly pollinating, using open pollination, the likelihood of losing desirable traits through genetic drift actually increases, because you are dealing with so many alleles, and you simply can't keep everything, so eventually and inevitably the desirable traits will wind up getting lost in the shuffle.
 
british_hempire said:
This thread really annoys me, quite a few people talking like they know it all and displaying big egos and bad attitudes, I just feel sorry for Nev for having to respond to this drivel, those criticising him should hang their heads in shame as they are talking out of their arses, I wonder if any of the critics have spent time sat in a jail cell for growing? Nev has, I have, so we can both tell you categorically - it fucking sucks. Quite frankly. unless you've walked in Nev's shoes then you should STFU with the criticism. Shanti would agree I think, he's suffered imprisonment for the same reasons and didn't let it stop him. Really, people should not criticise those who have put their arses on the line, if Nev and Shanti hadn't been prepared to risk losing their liberty and spending time in a cell then the commercial genepool would be in far worse straits.

Several people need to seriously find some new perspective on this subject before making themselves look even more stupid, apologising to Nev for being so obtuse and failing to see things from another perspective other than their own, if I were him I'd be rather pissed off.

So can we start 2011 off on a positive tip please and move on from this distasteful incident.
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I agree, I wish I could apologize for these haters. I am trying to learn from the man who has done more good for cannabis genetically, than just about anybody on the planet, and he is actually having to defend himself, from a bunch of fools who are probably using his genetics and don't even know it.

Thanks Nevil. I had to deal with lots of haters, just because I had one of your strains. They were all so Jealous.... Because they knew their shit just couldn't compare.

Thats OK because there were plenty of decent normal people who loved me for it.... Those were the ones I kept, and the Haze was like a passport into so many scenes... So thanks.
 
That's an old post from before I retired from making seeds. I did a lot of background reading on the subject of feminising, at the time I had been doing a lot of work with an Oaxacan line that had an intersex trait. I thought I'd found a new technique that would enable me to ditch the intersex trait without outcrossing the line that involved using the feminising process. I still believe feminising is a useful tool in the breeder's armoury but is also open to mis-use and most of the feminised seeds available today are simple hacks between a small number of clones. What I was getting at back then was that the feminising process had become demonised due to it's mis-use by people who just want to churn out masses of fem seeds for quick n easy profits (e.g. Dinafem's Critical Plus) but that shouldn't be allowed to blind people to the fact that the process of using silver ions to inhibit ethylene within a female plant is a technique that has merit in some breeding programs. My primary interest in feminising was to explore the genetic variation and traits present in a female specimen I was thinking of breeding with - in short, to make S1s of a female, grow them out and gain further insight into the genetic profile of the female mother through observation of the growth of her S1 progeny.

I've got a pile of notes on feminising three inches thick, I did a fair bit or practical work too, still have some of the feminised seeds I made, I gave most of them away to friends, I saw some mother plants from some of those seeds yesterday at a friend's house. It's not something I've got any plans to pick up and do further work with, I've moved on to different endeavours.
 
joshuahazen said:
I simply don't agree with you. In genetic drift, a population experiences a change in the frequency of a given allele, prompted by random luck. This differs from selection, in which allelic frequency is altered based on the fittest genes being selected to reproduce and the weaker genes being eliminated.
When you are breeding you are selecting the traits, you are adapting the strain to fit your personal needs as a breeder.
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And if you're constantly selecting only 2 individuals and constantly only popping 40 at a time you aren't able to select the fittest genes because your sample is so small. It's just plain laughable and your "selections" would be "random luck".

joshuahazen said:
If you are randomly pollinating, using open pollination, the likelihood of losing desirable traits through genetic drift actually increases, because you are dealing with so many alleles, and you simply can't keep everything, so eventually and inevitably the desirable traits will wind up getting lost in the shuffle.
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Not true at all. Completely dependent on the Ne. Now if you only have the space to pop 40...well, maybe.
 
Im sitting here angry at what im reading , fellow stoners (I think) bickering for nothing , thinking in my head ; what is mans impact on selectively bread species ? It seems to me that the impact usely inhibits the ability to survive in nature with out the help of man . Most dogs would not survive , Most vegetable type plants ,Tomatoes broccoli...etc are gone .
So the question i have for us is , Can Cannabis survive in nature with out the help of man ? If the answer is YES , then why are we so worried , we could always cross to hemp or rudalias? if something bad happens to the gene pool (potato blight) .

Look , this is a government problem not a breeder problem , plain an simple ...
 
Seems like a messy thread with soo many unanswered questions ,
great input from some folks , and interesting reading ...

Honestly id have to read more to get involved too much , i know many here have read allard , personally id say it would be a prerequisite for these discussions at the very least ... im still reading so on the sidelines i belong , think others would be wise to do the same ...

Of interest to me is ,,
how many plants do i need to need to preserve all the traits of a landrace ?
 
how many plants do i need to need to preserve all the traits of a landrace ?
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It's an interesting question, if you can find a good one. All this talk of saving landraces. For the most part, we're too late.
N.
 
Im not sure its "too late" to start trying anyhows ..

If we were a collective breeding team , of the folks we know on the boards , who would we choose to be part of the team , and why , what part would they serve ???
sorry for silly seemingly unrelated questions , but if its about breeding techniques , who has what to give to the breeding team ???
 
Nevil said:
It's an interesting question, if you can find a good one. All this talk of saving landraces. For the most part, we're too late.
N.
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For a moment, let's assume we aren't too late and that we have obtained seeds of an unworked wild landrace. To make the discussion more focussed, let's imagine we have a landrace from the Zombe Plateau in Malawi that is so special in it's trippy effects and potency it is worth working with despite the negative traits of hermaphrodism, spindly small buds and very long flowering time. (Think of the Black Magic African of legend)

That would mean we aren't looking to preserve all the traits as Donald mentions, just the desireable ones, the hermaphrodism and other negatives we should be happy to discard, right?

Supposing we had obtained only 150 seeds, would it make sense to open pollinate between the plants grown from these (removing only the most obvious rejects) to bulk up the volume of seedstock available before beginning any selection work?

Finally, do you think it would be better to carry out several gens of selection on the Zombe line to remove the undesireable traits before making outcrosses to introduce new, postive traits or would you prefer to select a desirable individual from the unworked Zombe line and outcross it then work the hybrid?

Sorry for all the questions in one go Nev, but it's a new year and I, for one, would prefer to stick to discussing what I love - plants, growing and breeding and leave the arguing and bitching in 2010 so I thought I'd try to head this thread back in a positive direction with some serious plan talk.
 
british_hempire said:
I, for one, would prefer to stick to discussing what I love - plants, growing and breeding and leave the arguing and bitching in 2010 so I thought I'd try to head this thread back in a positive direction with some serious plan talk.
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You are a troll british_hempire...

Have a good day.

K.
 
kashrocks said:
You are a troll british_hempire...

Have a good day.

K.
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Where the hell do you get off calling me a troll? I haven't behaved that way at all. You have made several derogatory comments to me now in several threads and I don't appreciate it one bit, if you have a problem with me send me a PM and I'll be glad to tell you what I think, otherwise please refrain from spewing your bile in my direction. Is this crap from you because of what I said about Purpurea Ticinensis?

I am actually trying to keep this thread on track and discuss serious breeding questions, I don't for one second appreciate people like you derailing the discussion with stupid crap, if you don't have anything more sensible to contribute, there are plenty of other forums where you'd find plenty of pointless threads you can be a prick in.
 
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Hi nev `

If i had wanted to cross ssh with chitral. In room 1 used ssh(mother) x chitral(father) and room 2 chitral(mother) x ssh (father). Room 1 i would select for ssh haze dominant and room 2 chitral dominant. Once i would be happy with potency smell structure i would cross ssh(father) from room 1 and x with chitral(mother) from room 2. Would this be better than just 1 room 2 plants or would i be going round in circles??
 
british_hempire said:
Is this crap from you because of what I said about Purpurea Ticinensis?
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I could care less about PT it is swiss hemp like I already told you...


british_hempire said:
if you don't have anything more sensible to contribute, there are plenty of other forums where you'd find plenty of pointless threads you can be a prick in.
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I m at home here...always been...since 1992...

Stop bullshitting my friends everywhere on the net.
It is strange that a repentant feminized seed advocate like you do not feel any gratitude toward those who fought against all the fem boys over the years.

Big up to Hempy and JessE for keeping it real..

Show some respect.

Peace.

K.
 
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