B
british_hempire
Guest
Haha, I see the ball is already rolling with this Haze test thing, you guys should compare notes and colaborate. Just wish I could come down under and join in all the fun you're bound to have doing the hard work of growing and sampling it all!
I tend to agree with Tom, the Seedsman and TFD Hazes both lean heavily to the sweet, citric Thai/Indian side and are pretty different to the tastes from the MNS Haze hybrids, rare to see a deep spicy pheno from the Seedsman/TFD version.
It is this difference that has allowed some people to speculate that the Haze Nev used wasn't Haze. Tom Hill himself made some wise crack about 'slipping some Aussie genes in there' at icmag last year I recall clearly.
Now, I'm not for one second saying that Nev didn't have Haze, he's detailed carefully the story of what happened when he got the seeds from Sam and I firmly believe it's true. Nev mentioned the oldest dags of seeds were from the late 60s which doesn't fit with Sam's tales.
I've often speculated in my own head about what really happened in Cali with Haze. I'm certain there was weed being sold under the name Haze in the 60s, that much is almost definite. Sam gives dats in the 71-73 range for the creation of Haze, that doesn't fit/ Sam and RCC say the original Haze began with a Mexican/Colombian and the Bros added South Indian and Thai genes to that in successive seasons.
Well, how about this for a theory, and I think it's a good one that is close to the truth:
Haze was originally Mexican/Colombian hybrid pot, the best anyone had seen in the mid 60s when it first appeared. It was sold by the BOEL, probably grown and developed by them, maybe in Hawaii. Sam was in High School at this time and he would have been a teenager when the Haze hype began, I can imagine him desperate to score a lid of Haze instead of all the (nice but not as special) Acapulco Gold and Michoacan Brown that was so commonly available.
Late 60s, 1967 onwards, Thai of very fine quality, the best as good as Haze began appearing in the US due to the Vietnam war. So when Sam had finished his education and returned from the hippie trail to Afghanistan (he wrote he was there in 71) I expect when he got back to Cali he set about growing. I doubt he was growing seriously before 71, he was too young and busy with school and travelling one would think from what he writes about his life.
So what if the Bros were Sam and Rob and the story as they have told it about taking the Mexican/Colombian, growing it under glass for the first time in 71 and adding the Thai and Indian in the next two years is true (I suspect it is true) all along?
That means Sam is the creator of Original Haze, which is what him and Rob call their Haze but they didn't originate Haze the name or the pot, they just took it and worked with it then took credit 20 years later when no-one who knew better was around to contradict them. That makes them guilty of not name-checking the guys who came before them and probably they didn't even know, they just had Haze seeds they had collected from Haze buds scored in the Bay Area and no link to the growers or breeders who made it. Sam wrote that Haze was fetching 500 an ounce in the early 70s, well just picture two early 20s baby boomers like Sam and Rob with a nice greenhouse in Corralitos to grow in an the desire to make money. What better way than growing the seeds from the most expensive weed around and seling the crop for that magical 500 an lid.
Being up and coming botanists, they bred with this Haze and made the version we are all familiar with today. Fast forward to 1985 and Sam is in Holland, needs the cash so sells the last of the Haze seeds to Nevil, not the Original Haze he bred himself from Haze, Thai and Indian but the Haze that made the name famous in the 60s in the first place.
Sam wrote about spending days sifting through kilos of Thai sticks to find the few seeds, why did he do that? Probably to find Thai seeds to grow to cross to his Mexican/Colombian Hazes. Sam visited Kerala in 70 or 71 when he was travelling the hippie trail, he probably picked up the South Indian he put into his Original Haze while there.
So Sam has Haze seeds which are Mexican/Colombian, Thai seeds he picked out of the best shipment of sticks he saw and South Indian seeds he smuggled back from the trail, it's 1971, he's in his early 20s, lives in the epicentre of weed growing at the time and has access to a greenhouse where he and his mate Rob can start their growing and breeding work. You know what happened after that - Sam tried to 'save' the Haze as he put it, spent a few years working with it then moved to Holland and passed the baton to Nevil who did far more with it than Sam did making Sam a bitter old git.
Irony of ironies, turns out there was something as special as the Mexican/Colombian Haze from Cali growing in Australia long before Nevil even met Sam and could have provided Nev with the same treasure chest of sat genes to breed with without the accompanying baggage of false histories and cloudy lineages that Sam's Haze been carried.
I think it must be karmic in some way that Nevil has now encoutered and bcome enamoured with this Aussie rival I speak of and is going to work with it. I would not be surprised if Nev wishes he'd had Mullumbimby Madness in 1985 and never had to bther with Sam or his accursed Haze!
Sam could redeem his character to some extent in the eyes of many people if he would just stand up and finally tell the 100% truth about the origins of Haze, that it started with the BOEL and he came along later and worked with it to make his own version.
Long and short of it, Sam's attempt at preserving the special qualities of Haze wasnt very successful, hence the 1 in 20 ratio, you have to wonder, are those 1 in 20 special plants actually the Mexican/Colombian Haze phenos and the other 95% are Thai and Indian phenos?
On the other hand, Nevil did a wonderful, legendary even job of preserving the special qualities of Haze by hybridising it. I, like many people remember how good NL5Haze was, and the best of it was like that 'acid pheno' Tom talks about from his Haze but better because it had the 'bottom' that Nev thinks (and I agree with him) is needed to round out and ground the Haze high. Like Tom wrote, without that bottom in there you will find the high too overpowering and uncomfortable, too paranoid and unsettling. tend to think if you had the acid pheno of Tom's Haze and the best pheno of NL5Haze side by side in front of you, the Haze would be the more interesting to smoke for the first time but the NL5Haze would be the one you'd keep coming back to time and again because it had the good parts of the Haze experience without a lot of the bad parts.
So you got to ask yourself, isn't this a large part of why Sam is so bitter and hates Nev so much? Sam spent a decade or more messing about in Cali with his Original Haze and came up with nothing to hold a torch to what Nev created within 3-4 years of meeting Sam for the first time. There's a story about Eric Clapton crying the first time he saw Hendrix play live because he immediately realise he had been totally outclassed and could bever compete with this guy. I bet Sam felt the same whay the first time someone gave him a bud of Nev's NL5Haze to smoke. For a decade in Holland they called the NL5Hazes 'Nevil's Haze'* and because Nev handed out some cuts like the A5 and C5, it became established as the de facto ultimate sativa weed in the country. Sam must have heard people talking about how good Nevil's Haze was almost daily for that decade, it must have driven the fella half mad - he brought Haze to Holland but no-one wanted it or smoked it anymore (remember what Frans wrote about how popular the pure Haze clone was at Positronics) and instead, all the buzz was about a hybrid of Haze made by someone else. First time I met Sam he admitted to me that if I wanted to grow Haze under lights I should go for Nevil's Haze because 'Haze under lights doesn't work too well'. I bet he hates admitting that.
(* the actual strain 'Nevil's Haze' came almost a decade after NL5Haze which was refferred to as Nevil's Haze from 89 onwards)
So what Tom has preserved is likely Sam's inferior version that is only a hybrid of the original in the first place and what he really should have done is select and stabilise for that 1 in 20 acid pheno because that was what made Haze's name in the first place back in the 60s and keeping in all that variation is only preserving the Thai and South Indian parts and I don't see any point in that because those genes are already commonly available from TFD in the form of Haze Mist (South Indian x Haze), Kerala Krush (South Indian x Skunk) and Thai-tanic (Thai x Skunk).
Sounds to me like searching for that 1 in 20 acid pheno is not really worthwhile because the same qualities are easier to find with smaller populations from Nevil's Haze because Nevil had the pure Mexican/Colombian BOEL Haze to work with and Tom only had Sam's inferior hybrid of it as his starting point so Nevil was at a huge advantage from the get-go.
Finally, it must be noted that since Nevil reappeared Sam has not made one single post and he has had tons of reason to speak out. Again, you got to ask why and the answer is almost certainly because the truth is the story I just outlined and after 30 years of taking all the credit and bending the truth his reputation in the public eye wouldn't survive the hit it would take if he finally came clean.
I'm sure that story has pissed a few people off and I don't really care. I'm just telling the truth as I see it after studying the topic and sometimes the truth hurts therefore if anyone is hurt, doesn't it logically follow I must have been getting close to the truth?
Anyways, I'm so through with the whole Haze history thing, it's the future that interests me and it doesn't lie with Haze, that ship has sailed, it lies with the Australian heirlooms and if fellas down under succeed, the word Haze won't be half as prominent in the next 30 years as it was in the last 30.
Anyway, the line I work with (and Positronic, and Flyingdutchmen, and Seedsman, and everybody else who's ever described/offered "Original Haze", including this early description from Sam), and what Mr. Nice works with, are two different animals - but both good imo.
I tend to agree with Tom, the Seedsman and TFD Hazes both lean heavily to the sweet, citric Thai/Indian side and are pretty different to the tastes from the MNS Haze hybrids, rare to see a deep spicy pheno from the Seedsman/TFD version.
It is this difference that has allowed some people to speculate that the Haze Nev used wasn't Haze. Tom Hill himself made some wise crack about 'slipping some Aussie genes in there' at icmag last year I recall clearly.
Now, I'm not for one second saying that Nev didn't have Haze, he's detailed carefully the story of what happened when he got the seeds from Sam and I firmly believe it's true. Nev mentioned the oldest dags of seeds were from the late 60s which doesn't fit with Sam's tales.
I've often speculated in my own head about what really happened in Cali with Haze. I'm certain there was weed being sold under the name Haze in the 60s, that much is almost definite. Sam gives dats in the 71-73 range for the creation of Haze, that doesn't fit/ Sam and RCC say the original Haze began with a Mexican/Colombian and the Bros added South Indian and Thai genes to that in successive seasons.
Well, how about this for a theory, and I think it's a good one that is close to the truth:
Haze was originally Mexican/Colombian hybrid pot, the best anyone had seen in the mid 60s when it first appeared. It was sold by the BOEL, probably grown and developed by them, maybe in Hawaii. Sam was in High School at this time and he would have been a teenager when the Haze hype began, I can imagine him desperate to score a lid of Haze instead of all the (nice but not as special) Acapulco Gold and Michoacan Brown that was so commonly available.
Late 60s, 1967 onwards, Thai of very fine quality, the best as good as Haze began appearing in the US due to the Vietnam war. So when Sam had finished his education and returned from the hippie trail to Afghanistan (he wrote he was there in 71) I expect when he got back to Cali he set about growing. I doubt he was growing seriously before 71, he was too young and busy with school and travelling one would think from what he writes about his life.
So what if the Bros were Sam and Rob and the story as they have told it about taking the Mexican/Colombian, growing it under glass for the first time in 71 and adding the Thai and Indian in the next two years is true (I suspect it is true) all along?
That means Sam is the creator of Original Haze, which is what him and Rob call their Haze but they didn't originate Haze the name or the pot, they just took it and worked with it then took credit 20 years later when no-one who knew better was around to contradict them. That makes them guilty of not name-checking the guys who came before them and probably they didn't even know, they just had Haze seeds they had collected from Haze buds scored in the Bay Area and no link to the growers or breeders who made it. Sam wrote that Haze was fetching 500 an ounce in the early 70s, well just picture two early 20s baby boomers like Sam and Rob with a nice greenhouse in Corralitos to grow in an the desire to make money. What better way than growing the seeds from the most expensive weed around and seling the crop for that magical 500 an lid.
Being up and coming botanists, they bred with this Haze and made the version we are all familiar with today. Fast forward to 1985 and Sam is in Holland, needs the cash so sells the last of the Haze seeds to Nevil, not the Original Haze he bred himself from Haze, Thai and Indian but the Haze that made the name famous in the 60s in the first place.
Sam wrote about spending days sifting through kilos of Thai sticks to find the few seeds, why did he do that? Probably to find Thai seeds to grow to cross to his Mexican/Colombian Hazes. Sam visited Kerala in 70 or 71 when he was travelling the hippie trail, he probably picked up the South Indian he put into his Original Haze while there.
So Sam has Haze seeds which are Mexican/Colombian, Thai seeds he picked out of the best shipment of sticks he saw and South Indian seeds he smuggled back from the trail, it's 1971, he's in his early 20s, lives in the epicentre of weed growing at the time and has access to a greenhouse where he and his mate Rob can start their growing and breeding work. You know what happened after that - Sam tried to 'save' the Haze as he put it, spent a few years working with it then moved to Holland and passed the baton to Nevil who did far more with it than Sam did making Sam a bitter old git.
Irony of ironies, turns out there was something as special as the Mexican/Colombian Haze from Cali growing in Australia long before Nevil even met Sam and could have provided Nev with the same treasure chest of sat genes to breed with without the accompanying baggage of false histories and cloudy lineages that Sam's Haze been carried.
I think it must be karmic in some way that Nevil has now encoutered and bcome enamoured with this Aussie rival I speak of and is going to work with it. I would not be surprised if Nev wishes he'd had Mullumbimby Madness in 1985 and never had to bther with Sam or his accursed Haze!
Sam could redeem his character to some extent in the eyes of many people if he would just stand up and finally tell the 100% truth about the origins of Haze, that it started with the BOEL and he came along later and worked with it to make his own version.
Long and short of it, Sam's attempt at preserving the special qualities of Haze wasnt very successful, hence the 1 in 20 ratio, you have to wonder, are those 1 in 20 special plants actually the Mexican/Colombian Haze phenos and the other 95% are Thai and Indian phenos?
On the other hand, Nevil did a wonderful, legendary even job of preserving the special qualities of Haze by hybridising it. I, like many people remember how good NL5Haze was, and the best of it was like that 'acid pheno' Tom talks about from his Haze but better because it had the 'bottom' that Nev thinks (and I agree with him) is needed to round out and ground the Haze high. Like Tom wrote, without that bottom in there you will find the high too overpowering and uncomfortable, too paranoid and unsettling. tend to think if you had the acid pheno of Tom's Haze and the best pheno of NL5Haze side by side in front of you, the Haze would be the more interesting to smoke for the first time but the NL5Haze would be the one you'd keep coming back to time and again because it had the good parts of the Haze experience without a lot of the bad parts.
So you got to ask yourself, isn't this a large part of why Sam is so bitter and hates Nev so much? Sam spent a decade or more messing about in Cali with his Original Haze and came up with nothing to hold a torch to what Nev created within 3-4 years of meeting Sam for the first time. There's a story about Eric Clapton crying the first time he saw Hendrix play live because he immediately realise he had been totally outclassed and could bever compete with this guy. I bet Sam felt the same whay the first time someone gave him a bud of Nev's NL5Haze to smoke. For a decade in Holland they called the NL5Hazes 'Nevil's Haze'* and because Nev handed out some cuts like the A5 and C5, it became established as the de facto ultimate sativa weed in the country. Sam must have heard people talking about how good Nevil's Haze was almost daily for that decade, it must have driven the fella half mad - he brought Haze to Holland but no-one wanted it or smoked it anymore (remember what Frans wrote about how popular the pure Haze clone was at Positronics) and instead, all the buzz was about a hybrid of Haze made by someone else. First time I met Sam he admitted to me that if I wanted to grow Haze under lights I should go for Nevil's Haze because 'Haze under lights doesn't work too well'. I bet he hates admitting that.
(* the actual strain 'Nevil's Haze' came almost a decade after NL5Haze which was refferred to as Nevil's Haze from 89 onwards)
So what Tom has preserved is likely Sam's inferior version that is only a hybrid of the original in the first place and what he really should have done is select and stabilise for that 1 in 20 acid pheno because that was what made Haze's name in the first place back in the 60s and keeping in all that variation is only preserving the Thai and South Indian parts and I don't see any point in that because those genes are already commonly available from TFD in the form of Haze Mist (South Indian x Haze), Kerala Krush (South Indian x Skunk) and Thai-tanic (Thai x Skunk).
Sounds to me like searching for that 1 in 20 acid pheno is not really worthwhile because the same qualities are easier to find with smaller populations from Nevil's Haze because Nevil had the pure Mexican/Colombian BOEL Haze to work with and Tom only had Sam's inferior hybrid of it as his starting point so Nevil was at a huge advantage from the get-go.
Finally, it must be noted that since Nevil reappeared Sam has not made one single post and he has had tons of reason to speak out. Again, you got to ask why and the answer is almost certainly because the truth is the story I just outlined and after 30 years of taking all the credit and bending the truth his reputation in the public eye wouldn't survive the hit it would take if he finally came clean.
I'm sure that story has pissed a few people off and I don't really care. I'm just telling the truth as I see it after studying the topic and sometimes the truth hurts therefore if anyone is hurt, doesn't it logically follow I must have been getting close to the truth?
Anyways, I'm so through with the whole Haze history thing, it's the future that interests me and it doesn't lie with Haze, that ship has sailed, it lies with the Australian heirlooms and if fellas down under succeed, the word Haze won't be half as prominent in the next 30 years as it was in the last 30.