The origins of Haze



Hey guys :)
Below is an article that recently ran in Treating Yourself Magazine, issue #14. Its been sometime in the making now, but a good friend asked me to post this here in this forum for everybody to read. Its actually slightly updated since it originally ran, and knowing me its probably never quite finished at the end of the day :)

Merry Christmas MNS.

The Origins of Haze​

Sometimes it’s all too difficult to see the light through the ‘Haze’. In California during the 1960’s and ’70s there were two men who were known as the ‘Haze Brothers’ who are widely believed to have been the originators of the variety of cannabis known today as ‘Haze’. Described by Sam the Skunk Man as “R. Haze” and “J. Haze”, the two are said to be brothers who are responsible for the initial creation of the variety that would later go on to be a pillar in the breeding community. The brothers are said not to have set out to breed the plants specifically, but that the plants were rather chance hybridizations between varieties that happened to be available in seed form at the time the plants were grown. Many varieties were being introduced to the west coast at the time, some of which were obtained by roaming hippies and surfers who would bring cannabis seeds back with them from far away lands that they had visited for spiritual quest or surfing adventures. Before the two brothers ultimately had a falling out, and went their separate ways, with one reportedly moving to Mexico for some time, they left behind many a stoner with a story to tell from the infamous variety known as “Haze”. With various stories being attributed to the origins of ‘Haze’, the exact pedigree is something of a debate in many circles. Depending on whom you talk with (and for that matter, whom you believe) the pedigree of Haze is Thai x Columbian, with “The Original Haze” said to have genetics from India in the mix as well. But with that being said, there are various factions throughout the marijuana community who believe there is a touch of Mexican Sativa somewhere in there as well; along with the ever present debate on the role Jamaican cannabis has played in some of the more suspect Haze varieties on the market today.

According to ‘Sam the Skunk Man’, an early pioneer in the cannabis industry who is believed to have brought several outstanding varieties of cannabis from the United States overseas to Holland (including ‘Original Haze’), the ‘Original Haze’ was a pure sativa line, that did not have any hermaphrodite tendencies despite its Thai origins and it typically had an above average female to male ratio, in the 60-70% mark, with the best phenotypes typically being the later finishing varieties. Haze came in several colors throughout its early history, with purple, red, silver and other assorted colors mentioned as being available during that time period (incidentally, Sam the Skunk Man claims the Purple Haze was the best of the bunch). In Sam’s version of events detailing the history of ‘Original Haze’, he brought the variety to Holland in 1976 and all subsequent varieties of Haze there after are either directly or indirectly related through hybridization to the lines he originally introduced to Holland at the time. The taste and high of the “Original Haze” have been described by Sam as being fruity, reminiscent of root beer cola, chocolate at times with even colorful words like “sweet and sour” used to describe the numerous terpenes found in the variety of cannabis known as ‘Haze’. Sam has described the F1 ‘Original Haze’ as being consistent in phenotype expression but the subsequent inbred generations that approached the F5 status as “segregated into many different lines”. The strains period of maturation is also something of debate, with the now benefactors of the official ‘Original Haze’, The Flying Dutchmen( who acquired their stock directly from Sam the Skunk Man himself), listing the flowering times at 12-16 weeks. A former staff member of the Flying Dutchmen, known as Amsterdammer, has been quoted as saying he believed the ‘Original Haze’ was usually harvested around the 15-16 week mark at the Cannabis College, a museum/exhibit also ran by the Flying Dutchmen which routinely displays varieties of Cannabis held in the Dutchmen bibliotheca. The effects of the ‘Original Haze’ is described as a “Very potent, clear up, energetic high”, something typically associated with cannabis varieties with Sativa dominant traits. It is worth noting the ‘Original Haze’ held by the Flying Dutchmen has been stabilized, in other words it was inbred quite a bit upon arriving in Holland in the 70’s and therefore does not contain the same amount of diversity found in the original, “Californian Haze”. Touted as a pure breeding variety (the only pure haze available), the ‘Original Haze’ is recommended to use as “breeding stock” that will invariably improve the quality of your existing stock rather than as a variety that should be cultivated solely for commercial/recreational/medicinal use.

All of this above of course, is just one version of events surrounding the history of Haze. Another man, known in the marijuana community as ‘Old Ed’ is also said to have brought “Haze” to Holland directly from the Haze brothers in the 1970’s. With yet another twist to the tale, Neville Schoenmaker, an Australian Cannabis breeder (who is also the father of Dutch Seed Banks) is said to have received seeds from the Haze brothers as well. In fact, his ‘Haze’ varieties were obtained from seeds made in 1969 and allegedly represent the earliest known examples of Haze still available in the world today. Not surprisingly, according to Sam the Skunk Man, Neville had never even seen a Haze plant until 1984 or 1985 (Sam has been quoted as using both dates to describe this theory) when, again, according to Sam the Skunk Man, he had given Neville his “worst” Haze clone because he “did not trust” Neville. Interestingly enough, Sam has also been quoted on different occasions as saying he gave Neville a male clone of the ‘Original Haze’ and at other times has been quoted as stating it was a female clone. The facts, as per Sam the Skunk Man seem cloudy at best, and usually vary depending on the day he is recounting them. So not surprisingly, the exact details surrounding the acquisition of the ‘Haze’ which would later go on to change the face of modern cannabis breeding, is still somewhat of a mystery 30 years after its arrival in Holland. But, as previously mentioned above, another story (and the most reliable) has it that the Haze Brothers met with Neville and personally exchanged the real “Californian Haze” with the Australian breeder and original “King of Cannabis”. The ‘Haze’ had a storied journey upon arrival in the Netherlands, with many famous names, companies, and “organizations” taking part and/or having a hand in its development such as Sacred Seeds, Cultivators Choice, Sensi Seeds, The Green House Seed Company etc. Many of those companies are now bankrupt, no longer in business, mismanagement/ownership changes, etc. A lot of the original stock was assimilated into other cannabis seed companies, or in some extreme cases were simply lost. There may indeed be separate lines of Haze available to the public today, all of which claim to be the genuine article. Speculation abounds that during the development of Haze, which happened over a period years, that the exact pedigree of the variety is determined by the vintage year the variety’s were bred. In other words, different varieties were hybridized over the course of the Hazes development thus resulting in individual pedigree being ultimately determined by the season your particular Haze was hybridized. Haze has also become a generic term in modern times; used to describe numerous sativa varieties that share common traits associated with all sativa cultivars. There are varieties that appear very similar to haze, but have suspect histories and stories behind them that can lead the average man trying to keep track of all the lineages over the edge. Whatever the case may be, it is a documented fact that Neville’s lines of ‘Haze’ have gone on to play a pivotal role in the breeding of some of the most famous varieties of cannabis available in modern times. Varieties such as the world famous Super Silver Haze and others have dominated the various festivals throughout the years including the High Times Cannabis Cup, and can trace their lineage directly to the ‘Haze’ lines obtained and first marketed by Neville at The Seed Bank in the 1980’s.

During the 1980’s, Neville Shoenmaker, allegedly traveled to the Netherlands to obtain treatment for a drug addiction, because at the time, the Dutch were renowned for their addiction treatment facilities. While there, Neville slowly started the first Dutch marijuana mail order seed bank, and over the course of time became very successful for himself, ultimately becoming a legend in the marijuana breeding community for his efforts to introduce, market, breed and distribute some of the most high profile varieties of cannabis of our time. Varieties such as Haze, Northern Lights, Afghani, Hindu Kush, G13, etc. became household names all over the world and these varieties quickly gained reputations for themselves as some of the most outstanding cannabis strains to ever grace a hillside or greenhouse. All of the aforementioned varieties above have their own unique and colorful histories, but their marketing and distribution to the masses can be accredited too the charismatic Australian breeder known as the original ‘King of Cannabis’, and were all made famous during the 1980’s at Neville’s mansion, The Cannabis Castle, and sold through his catalogs for The Seed Bank, Holland’s first Cannabis Seed distribution company. The Seed Bank, ran by Neville (a man who once boosted to have set the school record for number of strapping’s received in a year (over 900)), was the first Dutch seed bank in the Netherlands and eventually lead to an entire industry of cannabis seed breeders who decided to cash in on the underground market for quality cannabis seeds, many of whom just rehashed Neville’s original varieties with new names, new hybrids and new stories that only continue to grow as the years passed by. Today, many of the varieties who have gained notoriety in the past 20 years are directly descended from the varieties offered at The Seed Bank during the 1980s, with many being the same old genetics, but with a new name and occasionally a different twist. Many of the varieties Neville marketed were later sold to his partner, Ben Dronkers at Sensi Seeds, which later became one of the most prolific seed banks in Holland during the early to mid 90s, likely attributed to the fact they were using stock purchased directly from Neville which were the originals that were marketed from the early days at The Seed Bank. Neville went on to many endeavors in Holland, working as both a breeder for select companies, as well as providing marijuana for many Dutch coffee shops, even owning his own coffee shop.Sometime in the late 1980’s or early ‘90s he was arrested in Perth, Australia after being listed on America’s Top Ten Most Wanted and spent a year and a half in a western Australia jail fighting an illegal extradition case with grounds for an appeal being that Neville held both a Dutch and Australian passport. From there, Neville spent quite a few years afterwards underground before re-emerging in the early half of the 21st century as a breeder and consultant with Mr. Nice Seeds, along side fellow Australian breeder, and legend in his own right, Shantibaba. Today, many of the top haze hybrids available on the market can be found at Mr. Nice Seeds, all of which can be traced back to the original ‘Haze’ lines obtained by Neville during the ‘80s which have gone on to win numerous awards in the cannabis industry. Along with Neville, Shantibaba (formally the Founder/Owner/Breeder of The Green House Seed Company in 1994) has taken many of the legendary old school lines of cannabis(and new school), and continued to set the standard for all other seed companies in the industry to follow. Almost all of the awards attributed to the top ‘Hazes’ today can be traced back to stock possessed by Neville and Shantibaba at the Mr. Nice seed bank.

Some of the top haze varieties offered by Mr. Nice Seeds, (fronted by Legendary International Hash Smuggler Howard Marks) include the infamous Super Silver Haze, which is a Northern Lights, Skunk#1 and Haze hybrid described as “the stash of stashes” that leaves one “gasping for reality” after only a few short hits from this multiple time Cannabis Cup winner. Along with Super Silver Haze, its sister variety Mango Haze has quickly garnered a reputation for herself as being amongst the finest strains of cannabis available from Holland at present time. On paper, the differences between the two varieties appears slight, however they are quite significant. The actual pedigree of Super Silver Haze consist of (Skunk x Haze C) x (Northern Lights#5 x Haze C). With Haze C being the result of a union of two pure haze varieties that were discovered from Haze seed stock made in 1969. This is where things can get confusing for a novice gardener, there yet exists another pure Haze variety, known in the Mr. Nice Seed circles as Haze A, which also consists of a union between two pure Hazes plants that date back to 1969. Both Haze A and Haze C are related varieties. The Mango Haze father plant is a (Skunk x Haze C) variety, which is also said to be the same father as Super Silver Haze, while the mother plant is a separate (Northern Lights #5x Haze C) variety, the sister plant to the mother of Super Silver Haze. You may have to stop and think about that for a second, but it should come to you with some time. It should be noted, technically both Mango Haze and Super Silver Haze are 50% Haze varieties, however Mango Haze overall in terms of growth characteristic appears to be the more Sativa of the two sister varieties. Having grown both varieties personally, I can tell you they are both excellent and well worth the time and effort required to grow them. Along with Super Silver Haze and Mango Haze, perhaps the most elusive and sought after ‘Haze’ variety on the market, is the aptly named ‘Neville’s Haze’. A variety which is touted as the most powerful cannabis known to mankind, the Neville’s Haze is a 3/4’s pure Haze variety that was crossed with a Northern Light’s variety in order to keep the flowering times remotely reasonable for most cultivators. The pedigree of ‘Neville’s Haze’ is actually Haze C on the male side of the lineage, crossed with a (Northern Lights x Haze A) female variety. Again, Haze C is the result of a union between two pure haze variety’s from 1969, with Haze A also sharing the same pedigree, which itself, is also the result of a union between two pure haze variety’s from 1969. Other Haze varieties available from Mr. Nice Seeds include (Afghan x Skunk) x (Afghan x Haze), (Afghan x Haze), Mango Haze x Neville’s Haze, Early Pearl x (Skunk x Haze), Mango Widow (Mango Haze x White (Black) Widow), Early Queen x Haze, and La Nina, who’s pedigree consist of the original White Widow father (South Indian hybrid) crossed to a pure Haze female, which is neither Haze A or Haze C.

In conclusion, the true history of Haze may never be known for certain. There are different versions of the legend, all of which seem to be cemented in some kind of fact but which are recounted differently according to the individuals you speak with. There are constants in the story though, such as the fact the Haze variety comes from two individuals known as the Haze Brothers, who were from the west coast of the United States of America who worked with numerous tropical sativa varieties in their quest to create what we now know today as Haze. There are numerous questionable haze’s available on the market as well, with the term “Haze” used quite loosely in modern times when describing varieties with known sativa characteristics as a species, not as an individual, specifically named variety. For those looking for haze varieties that are without question the best in overall quality , (with the awards, history and praise to back up their assertions), Mr. Nice seeds headed up by the legendary Shantibaba, Neville and Howard Marks may very well be your best bet in the quest for the true and authentic ‘Haze’.
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nice one dude

i was going to wait for it to be on a pdf
Nicely done JessE, I read it a couple weeks ago when the magazine was released. Hope you have your copy now, if not soon come.
Merry Christmas
NICE reading Jesse. Thanks for sharing.

How Neville got in procession of the Pure Haze will always be a mystery, since the version of Sam does not match the one from Neville. But the important thing is Neville got the genetics, they are truly good, and are used to produce “some” of the best hybrids in the market. All in our favour :D
Again, good reading!!! Just what a guy needs after a good lunch and before rolling a joint.

Arjan reputation precedes him, no wonder Shantibaba and Neville didn’t want anything to do with him. I was at Greenhouse coffeshop in Amsterdam 1.5 years ago and after looking at the catalog found myself asking… “wtf, how did a guy that was never a breeder managed to produce so many new Haze hybrids?” Now I have the answer, he was using Neville’s Haze to produce them.

As a funny side of the story, I didn’t buy any of Arjan new haze hybrids, but got myself some Pure Californian Haze they had on the menu instead. And I did it on purpose :D

Thank you for the post mate :)
British Hempire,

Nobody have tried to slam Arjan so far, although i personally don’t like the character. Just telling a funny story :)

I have a question that might be pertinent. If Sam only gave Neville his worst Haze male because he didn’t trust him, how come there’s a Haze A and a Haze C? It’s not one pure haze plant, but 2 instead. It makes me wonder :confused:
I think Sam explains a lot of his involvement with the Haze bros by saying he lived next door to them (or to the grow).
I also haven't covered the whole knarly issue of OT1 Haze and Tom Hill Haze, a hard story to tell due to difficulties in discerning which version of events happens to be true.

hi british_hempire well neville did collect haze from the us i cant rember the date now but he did not use haze seeds from sam and the haze seed neville collected is the oldest vertion of haze dateing back to 69.

They as in shanti and neville still have pure haze seed and any good breeder would have back ups of there perent lines mate the thing few understand about haze is how unstable it is and how a lot of work went into the selection of haze A and C but they still have pure seed that they were found from.

I respect sam as his a pioner and if you like him or not we need to respect him and others but the one thing i found od was him posting saying he gave neville his worse fem clone then years later sed it was a male why would any one keep a clone that was not worthy to start with also sam sed he never worked with neville later sed he did wich was infact correct they as in sam and neville had history worked togeather seperated we dont hear nevilles side only sams i my self can understand why neville dont post and to be honest im not far from doing the same.

Ot1 haze well a tuchy topic with me why well i hate bull shit and this has so much bull shit involved that one needs to wounder why people have let it roll on for as long as it has.

History of ot1 haze.
Ot1 is a guy from the uk sed to be a nice guy his not in question but the genetics he claims to be haze is why ?, Well you see he him self ot1 has stated ot1 haze did not come from the haze brothers but a hippie comune in cali and he belives it to be from lines used to creat the haze now he also made some other claims like being the one to bring in genetics that created nl sk and a few more yea lets not go there.

Ot1 past the seed to a person called pacific to grow it out and make seed to then past it back and pass it around as he lives in the uk and unable to grow it out any way pacific later past it to a guy called wolfman who lives in the dam and not ot1 like agread on.

Pacific gave it to him i read the posts that were in cw i may still have them in my archive collection but pacific clearly sed they were his.

So wolfman grew them out and i think he only got 3 up but was small numbers could of been 3 males 1 fem but he made seeds and also made ot1 x to c99 he then past on the ot1 seeds he made to gant to pass them around to the community to be grown and breed and for them to do the same.

Gant then started a post at cw in the mr nice forum at cw calling the post the haze preservation post basicly and posted saying wolfman past on seeds and was to pass it on to people from all corners to grow breed and do the same.

I knew soon as the post started what this was really about and i told a few just that any way a few posts in pacific shows up calling wolfman a thief and so on great start to a post ha whats funny yet sad at the same time is wolfman did nothing wrong yet is called a thief pacific got seeds given to them only to have them shut up and the so called ot1 haze that was ment to be past around for free is now sold by 2 companys.

The parts few know is that some involved in this were also going around the boards posting saying how mr nice (shanti / nevilles ) haze is not as good how nevile used sams worse haze clone and out right went out on a mission to rubbish the mr nices haze line.

They also sed how the haze used by all commercial breedrs is dutched and theres the ot1 is not HELLO didnt wolfman germinate breed ot1 in the dam lol.

The sad part is ot1 gets the thanks others make money and worfman gets not even a thank you and people paying money for haze get an unknown sativa line not even from the haze brothers or related to real haze.

Tom hills haze came from protronics ( i know its the wrong spelling ) sam sed he gave them a clone so who knows is its pure or not i think a few do know but dont cear to comment.

One thing i do know is tom hill is a nice guy chatted to him a few times.
No-one but Nevil knows whether it was Sam's seeds or some other Haze seeds he obtained his three Haze plants from, The story he told folks in Amsterdam was that he got them from a guy in NYC who had an old seed collection.

Well shanti knows and so do i as i spoke to shanti about there haze line face to face i was told the story and even names of those neville collected it from what i wont do is repeat it on here thats up to people like neville or shanti to do so if they see fit i my self would not becouse it would only feed those that have an agenda to rubbish and less they know less they can conect the dots.

If Sam and RC Clarke are correct, Haze didn't exist in 1939, the first Mexican and Colombian seeds were planted in 1970, the mexi.colombian hybrids planted in 71, and the Keralan male introduced, 72 they grew the 3-way /Mexi/Colombo/Keralan hybrids and introduced the Thai male, so the first time Haze existed in it's full form was the harvest at the end of the 1972 season.

No ones ever sed haze existed in 1939 what mr nice have and hold is the haze from 1969 sed to be some of the first real haze and best made.

I have often thought that Neville's Hazes might indeed be from old seeds he got in NYC but could be something other than Haze, could just be a Thai/Colombian hybrid that had been around a while and not related to the Haze work. Who knows, only Neville and he only knows what the guy who gave him the seeds told him.

british_hempire one thing i can say 100% is shanti dont lie his as honest and up front as they get he would not call something haze if infact it was not haze and as he knows the lines he works with and there history he is the one people need to read from not people that have no insite to A/ There work B/There perent lines and there origins.

I'm fully familiar with the OT1 Haze story, I just don't consider it interesting enough to be bothered with, OT1 said there were 3 Haze liens and two were lost, I've never understood why he gave away all of his Haze beans, surely he would have kept a few?

The real problem with the OT1 haze story is that right in the middle is a thief and liar with a barrowload of bad karma and baggae and whenever this Haze topic gets mentioned, it gets ugly again, friends of mine were afected in the past so let sleeping dogs lie. OT1's Haze as worked by Ace and BC may be Haze, may not, Sam would be able to tell.

No the real problem with ot1 story is its bull shit and people are paying big money for something there not getting thats real haze.

Heres just a few quotes.

From ace seed.......Our haze seeds came from the last haze reproductions done in California in the late 70s and they have a great preservation value for us.

Quote from one of the BC guys who got the ot1 seeds.

The 'Pure Haze' lines discussed in the thread on CW and at our site are from a differing line of 'Haze' from California in the '60s and not the same as the 'Haze Brothers' legendry 'Origional Haze' lines..

So the same lines from the 60s and the late 70s
Originally Posted by Oldtimer1 at bcg forum

My haze was brought here [uk] from the states during its development it was still being developed field scale and may not represent the finished product. From what I have gleaned the nearest to the real thing on sale in Europe was sold by Wernard of Positronics. After he went bankrupt his stock and seed Co was taken over by Dutch passion / Home grown fantaseeds. Both these seed banks are run by relatives. The thing is that the spec for their haze has been changed from posies one in a big reduction on the finish time on 12/12. I suspect they have made a cross to a non dom indica.The thing is if you want to grow real haze it takes 12 to 16 weeks on 12/12 the very best being the late ones. The only other Haze that may have some of the original one in could be Nevils haze but greenhouse haven't published its spec yet but once again I suspect it will have indica added we will see. Most the other so called haze are lambs breath and Thai crosses. In fact in Holland haze has become a generic term for a sat with a strong up high.

Haze was grown in greehouses and there was no field testing real breeding done the haze brothers were comercial growers not breeders they created haze by flook by x there best sativas to make seed for there commercial crop and struck gold so ot1 story is not even close to fact and the real breeding was done in urope.
A few more from Ot1.

Apr 6 2004, 01:44 AM
nav I was and am, a do nothing no account as far as general society is concerned.

I have not found a modern var I would keep, I have to say I have not tried that many, most of my genetics come from before there were any seed banks.

Of modern I thought romberry and C99 were good efforts, but neither had the quality of high I look for. I would give them maybe 4 or 5 out of ten. I grew out over a 100 sensi seed bank Jack Herer when they first came out. Not one even made 1 out of 10 in my books.:D

I was involved in contributing genetics in the early days towards the breeding of what later became skunk#1, but I don�t like what it has become now. I loved field grown haze from SoCal when it was first being developed. Todays versions are pale in comparison.:rolleyes:

So I have to say I dont have one.

I would look to boutique breeders like baud, ston and ncga for something outside the Dutch loop, where quality has been steadily declining for years, there may well be a few good people in Holland but the main stream are not. There are other good people I know who are also doing good research into connoisseur genetics, but not for public release in the USA AUZ, Spain and NZ. If we can get some of the boutique people to outlet here at uk420 we will. But it takes time to build trust.

No offence mate but ot1 is smokeing some good mj and has no idear on what his posting or his lieing threw his ass no way he had a hand in sk like he claims above and other things link NL i saw in a post im trying to find.

Ot1 has also posted saying his line of what they call ot1 haze is not related to the haze brothers line now one minet it is then its erly vertion of haze then its not so it is him that is not telling the truth not neville as you have stated over at icmag.

Originally posted by British Hempire

BTW I can't believe some folks are convinced Neville (who disappeared years ago) spoke the gospel truth about the origins of his Haze. It's not much of a stretch to come to the conclusion that when Neville met Sam in Holland in the 80s, Sam was already a legend and Neville a reformed junkie aiming to make a name for himself,

Mate Neville was a legend before sam arived father of the dutch seed companys breeder of champion lines still used by many today.

Originally posted by British Hempire
The DEA arrested Neville Schoenmakers in Australia in 1990 for sending a load of seeds from Holland to New Orleans, he's kinda been in hiding ever since so good luck tracking him down and getting him to tell the truth


Not looking for a fight but lets post facts not wat some say that have no clue or real insite on mate you want to know facts realating to the Truth of mr nice haze then ask shanti he knows not sam not ot1.
Mate i could post things here that would blow the ass out of many in the canna community but i wont.

I have pms that was sent to me stateing ot1 line is not haze tells me were the line is from and the pm is from 1 of those selling it as haze i mite add but i wont post it as it was sent to me in privert.

I also have some were a quote from ot1 saying his lines is not haze or from the haze brothers.

So in short its not haze but what it is in short is an unknown sativa being called haze.

Neville traveled collected genetics he had the brains to do it and started a company selling seed he is the father of modern seed companys and won many cups with and he breed many lines most still use today that others just re name or re combine and re name and the fact is many are jelouse of the guy.

Sam hates him thats clear as day but thats between them nevilles has never sed publicly his side or rubished sam but sam has posted saying things to be changed at a diffrent time but i my self stay out of it as it dont involve me .

Haze did have the real breeding done on it in urope mate see the haze brothers were not breeders even sam sed that.

like i told you before shanti knows all about the lines he works with and history on top of that they as in mr nice hold seeds for all perent lines and that means haze also.

I got hold of what i belive was pure haze in 79 it was called tripping weed here we were getting lids in of acopolco gold around that time to in tims from the us and other things.

The reson for selecting the haze they use in mr nice lines is best answeard by shanti mate he knows i dont.

Neville had haze seeds before the first cannabis cup so thats before 88 also like i sed nothing shanti has posted is not fact he knows all things relating to nevilles lines he works with you forget nevilles a good friend of shanti and part of mr nice look at the sites intro.
Hi all , hi hempy & BH
nice discussion going

British hempire,

Regarding mns Hazes, how did you come to the conclusion that Nev ''restricted'' himself in any way?

british hempire said:
''Thing with Neville and the seed thing is that why would he restrict himself to just three plants when he had all those Haze beans from Sam?''

british hempire said:
''Nevil obtained Haze seeds and from these he grew three plants which he called A, B and C; A and C were males, B was a female. ''
british hempire said:
''Nevil had three Haze plants which he called A, B and C. A and C were males, B was a female. The Haze B female was not an impressive looking plant and didn't have a pleasant high when smoked, so it was discarded.''

The 2 pure Haze male plants , 'A' & 'C' and the female pure Haze (used in the LaNina hybrid) are the results of selection/breeding , they are not clones/seedplants from the initial Haze seeds that Nev acquired and started working with (first generation). In other words the 3 MNS Hazes are the plants Nev ended up with after working with the Haze genetics he obtained. He didn't get those three or had to limit himself to 3 plants.

The 2 pure Haze males 'A' & 'C' for instance are both results from pure Haze parents from '69:

Shantibaba said:
''Haze C male which is made by two pure haze parents from 1969.''
''Haze A was also made by two pure Haze parents also from 1969''
Now I don't know whether Neville finally got to work with the pure Haze seeds Sam gave him but according to Shanti the mrnice Haze hybrids are said to have their Haze originate from '69 Haze Bros stock and it ain't from/through Sam.

If we go with Sams story that Haze wasn't even ready as we know it before '72-'73 , then Nev couldn't have got '69 Haze with Thai in it , at least Haze bros Haze... ..but perhaps Sam is lying or mixed up the dates..

All I know as a grower is that I 've grown n smoked lots of different breeder's gear and not surprisingly Shanti's/Neville's seeds always produce some of the best plants and medicine for my head in the garden. So personally , I ll stick to the seeds that like to speak for themselves
and go with the mns version of things ..I 'll trust my instinct and go with the story that can be backed up by some real proof to the grower..the quality of the plants.
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I thought Neville only got 3 plants from the old seeds he obtained, if he obtained his seeds in 86 or 87 in the US, and his first Haze hybrid was released in the 1988 catalogue (Haze x NL#1) he can't have worked it to extensively, but as you say, the proof is in the pudding and we all know the excellence of the 3 plants he did use as breeding parents.

A year or two of breeding , although not much should be enough for some basic breeding/selection. Either way seed quality and numbers are whats important as far as I m concerned , progeny testing shouldnt take more than a year so it makes sense. So if they were obtained around '86/'87 , it sounds just right if the first Haze hybrid , HazexNl#1 was released from Nev during '88 in the catalogue.

La Nina ia an old favourite of mine, I had a pheno with the Haze taste but the Widow resin, sadly lost now, I didn't realise it was the B female used to make her. Don't suppose you know if the Haze x NL#1 hybrid was also using the B female?
LaNina is very special indeed , the Haze pheno was my favorite too , strong Hazy fuel in terms of smell , fruity Hazy taste and very pleasant up high. Didn't keep a clone myself so lost it too but at least we know where and what to look for now.
As for which Haze was used in HazexNL#1 , to be honest I have no clue .

I still have my doubts that Sam's Haze and Neville's Haze are related, the Haze tastes we are so familiar with from NL5Haze, SSH, NH etc just don't seem to be there in the Sam Haze ether pure hybrids I've grow or smoked, seems to me Sam's Haze is a sweety, fruity Thai type taste whereas Neville's are more spicy and earthy. Whether this is beacuse Sam worked the line selecting for the sweet Thai leaning phenos he says he prefers i don't know.
Now Shanti is in Spain, I wonder if he's experienced the OT1 Hazes grown by dubi and Charlie first hand? If so, maybe he can comment on what he thinks of the line and if he thinks it is at all related to the Haze from Neville.
Well since I had the chance of sampling Dubi's ot1 Hazes , and most of the different phenos , I have to say that there was a strong resemblance between them and the Haze I m familiar with from MNS and other sources. Real HazeBros Haze or not.. , it looked , smelled , smoked and tasted similar. I wonder what Shanti would think about the ot1 Hazes too after sampling them. I liked them myself but I cant really judge them till I grow em myself and I have yet to grow 'Sams' pure Haze versions.

Also, I was told that Neville did cross the B female to one or both of the males to make pure Haze, just wondered why he never released it or worked with it in hybrids, probably because pure Haze is a waste of time for most growers who aren't able to grow it outdoors below 30N.
Thats a good question. Perhaps Nev did make pure Haze by using the 2 or 3 pure Haze plants but the result wasn't too promising.Perhaps it was and decided not to sell the resulting seed as he might have considered them to be breeding stock or something..

Or maybe you're right and the pure Haze wasn't really worth it , from a commercial point of view..
..though if thats the case I have to say I see many people willing nowadays to get their hands down and dirty.. I one of sure wouldn't mind giving a mns pure Haze a shot hehe .And when I said above 'not worth it , from a commercial point of view' , I mean perhaps the resulting f1s were very difficult to grow and there were only very few special plants that did worth the wait.. (heavy selection needed) , while in hybrids the results were better overall (more vigor , more keepers etc) and Nev chose to sell only Haze in hybridized form in order to get only positive feedback from all growers. Many inexperienced growers might have been unsatisfied and whats better that happy customers..
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hempire and l33t thanks for collecting and sorting all this info

its a fantastic read and very informative

i hope shanti will want to join in

its such a shame that canna isnt recocnised by any florol soceities, if so this would not be under discussion.

may be one day
Interesting about the OT1 Haze, I know hempy says he knows that it isn't Haze as it didn't come from the Haze Bros, but perhaps it contains some ver similar genetics. The Keralan Sativa was hardly exclusive to Sam, other people were known to be working with Keralan seeds at this time. Also, the Colombians and Mexicans used were probably not rare at all, and were probably seeds picked out of the best import batches, so if the Haze Bros could obtain them, many others in Cali also could. The purple Colombian BOEL imports inspired a purple craze and Colombian was all the rage in 1970, so it would not surprise me at all if other sativa hybrids with very similar genetics to the Haze existed, so I reckon it;s possible that OT1's line could be similar to Haze without being from the exact same source.

Well its no secret guys ot1 has sed it him self be it after he sed he had a hand in breeding it had then sed it was haze then sed it was erly lines used in to make haze and not from the haze brothers.

Fact is lots of sativas will look like haze even can give similla affects to haze how many here smoked good old school thias or south american sativas from the 70s if you did you would know what im talking about but what is importent is keeping the facts real and i have found it amazing that a group of people who i wont name that were part of a given selective privert site have rubished neville and the mr nice haze for some time that happens to be the real orthentic haze so they can pimp push a fake one.

I have no money intrest or an agenda what im about if facts and truth .

whos haze lines are the most sort after lines in the seed world yes mr nice why easy its the quolity of the smoke.

The fact is simple its not haze its an unknow sativa thats called haze and many in the community know it.