Breeding techniques

With regards to "keeping Back ups"
or rather safeguarding a strain ,you will have to understand it takes 2 unique P1 parents to create a strain or line.

If those exact plants are not kept alive,then the ability to replicate the same seed is gone as well..

It's a very simple and straight forward concept and practice..
Click to expand...
Well said Cabron. The seed backups I keep for breeding IBLs is to make sure I can retrace my steps if I make a mistake. It happens, you loose a trait that you liked or one creeps in that you don't.
N.
 
Thanks for the thread Nevil. I was hoping the discussion would start at 'Step 1', but conflicting philosophies and personalities seem to have taken any useful information I might glean and sent it madly off in all directions. Not actually complaining here, just waiving my frustration flag.
Meantime, it'll be another 2 years before I can actually begin any sort of selection or breeding and so bide my time purchasing beans (mostly landrace) and growing them all out for seed. Question - what's the likelyhood that my starter beans originate from a single mother/father pairing? While most here strive for ultimate purity, I find myself embracing ultimate diversity as a starting point with the greatest potential.
 
Mooner said:
Thanks for the thread Nevil. I was hoping the discussion would start at 'Step 1', but conflicting philosophies and personalities seem to have taken any useful information I might glean and sent it madly off in all directions. Not actually complaining here, just waiving my frustration flag.
Meantime, it'll be another 2 years before I can actually begin any sort of selection or breeding and so bide my time purchasing beans (mostly landrace) and growing them all out for seed. Question - what's the likelyhood that my starter beans originate from a single mother/father pairing? While most here strive for ultimate purity, I find myself embracing ultimate diversity as a starting point with the greatest potential.
Click to expand...

This must be your first time??
Stick around,,you havn't seen anything yet!
Threads like these are usually devolved into shit tossing contests
within the first page....

Started with the best intentions ,but then go to shit quicker than a Ginger Video!

Hell ,now that I think of it,,this one did start to go to shit at page 1,,,you had somebody preaching from a pulpit right off! about BS ethics!

I kinda felt ethics were delivering a strain that is accurate to the description given..??? what do I know??;)
 
This is the interweb, where the shit fly's high! The trick is to filter and I think smoking herb makes it a lot easier ;).


If you read trough this thread you can clearly see 2 diffrent types of breeding clashing. I am a noob, and I can still see that one half is bottlenecking the good traits via 1on1 matings. While the other group would prever a more natural way of fields of ganja pollinating towards a stable landrace like "in nature" with a little human selection in it.


As somebody who has usually a brutal realistic view AND living in europe, I would sure single out the "natural way". It's not possible over here, no space. What I can do is 1on1 matings. I can try to select a female, I can try to select a male and do the pollination. What I can't do is planting fields of 100's of seeds so... and neither can anybody else. Not shanti, not Nevil. Those day's are over. Authorities and/or criminals will cause loads of problems no matter where you are in the world.

So... the nature's way is more like the "dreamers" way in my opinion. No offence...
 
this is a topic of great interest to me. about all i can ask folks to do to help preserve the thread is to not comment on a worthless post cause that's when things start going haywire. hey, and i am not excluding myself cause i can be dense at times and say dumb things.

but back to this idea of damaging the gene pool; my purpose for being here at mns or any site for that matter is my quest for genetics and ultimately, a better end product than what i currently own. congratulations to any breeder who contributes to opening the bottleneck but i am pretty sure i am not interested in buying any of that shit? what i do want to buy is seed that produces a uniform line and to this end, a certain amount of expertise is required which is what i believe i truly hunt?

and for those of you with more honorable intentions, i recently noted a fair number of landrace strains being offered in seed form but my question is how does one go about opening things up? is the answer found in some wild matching of various landraces? peace-biteme
 
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Good thread, Nevil. Thank you for taking the time to share your insight.

I'm curious about the possibility of breeding for seed expression. If a desired pheno could be bred to distinguish itself by "beanotype" you could produce "phenolized" seeds which would be exponentially more efficient at finding a 1:1000 pheno. Is it crazy talk? Maybe time to consider GM?:eek:
 
Haha nice canna, bottleneck the traits you want, cross/bottleneck it further for big seeds. Then you should be able to find your "superbigbeanbud" in any seedcrop.

Sounds easy, but probably isn't ;). "superbigbeanbud" must be strooong in passing traits. Like a P1 ...
 
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Nevil said:
There are a few flaws in the plan. I a 100 plant plot, 50 of them are going to be male. Selecting 40 females out of 50 isn't much of a selection. He states that "The actual number of plants that survive will be much less", but he is keeping seed from the 40 best females, while at the same time selecting for "high THC, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant, (what ever you want)"
He's kept practically everything and open pollinated with everything. Where's the selection?

Second Cycle. He starts again with a 100 plants. What, 2.5 seeds from each of the 40 selected mothers? What is the probability of each mother producing a daughter?
For the first time he culls 50% of the females, but takes a step back again by using most of the males. I wouldn't expect too many mutations.

Third cycle. Presumably he starts with 5 or so seeds from each mother and culls about half of the females, again using most of the males, of which all were fathers unknown and keeps 10 females.

Fourth and fifth cycle are a repeat cull 50% 0f the females each time, but with little male selection.

The guy is an armchair breeder who has wasted 5 years on a bunch of seeds with unknown parentage. Many of the potentially good combinations were lost due to lack of numbers.

The whole plan sounds a bit "Plastiki" to me. Repeating words like "open pollinated" and repeating phases like "while at the same time selecting for "high THC, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant, (what ever you want)", strikes me as glib. Paying lip service to something is not the same as doing it.

I'd suggest that your friend skip the first 5 years of his plan and go straight to his short cut after he has decided what he likes from the many lines available today.

If you friend has impressive weed, I'd say it's because he can choose from 5 crops of 100 plants in different locations and not because his plan has much merit.

I could be wrong, but somehow the story seems a bit, ... contrived.
N.
Click to expand...

Nev, thanks for the reply.

I guess you see no merit on recurrent selection?

I would guess part of your response, and part of the derailing of this thread also...is as someone mentioned....

WHAT ARE YOUR GOALS?

My Friend, Myself and most of the folks on my home board are outdoor growers only. as mentioned in the second paragraph of my quote/post, the GOAL is acclimatizing strains to an enviroment...while also selecting for the traits you want.

I read the process as working a bit different than you mentioned in your respone...mainly that the plants that are kept would be a 50/50 split of male/female. at that rate 60% cull first go round, 80 % second, etc.

regardless.... as you mentioned in the opening page...your immediate goal is to breed a plant that will produce quality for the end user(grower) immediately.
thats great...if the plant would actually grow AND FINISH! I'd love to grow your haze, or any number of Shantis strains...and if i did by the end of the season...i'd have 15 foot trees...with no buds and the frost would have stopped me dead.

so my goals are different...at least to begin with... get me to F5 and then I'll select the best 1:1, tuned for my outdoor enviro...

Thanks and Take Care, North
 
nOpe said:
This is the interweb, where the shit fly's high! The trick is to filter and I think smoking herb makes it a lot easier ;).


If you read trough this thread you can clearly see 2 diffrent types of breeding clashing. I am a noob, and I can still see that one half is bottlenecking the good traits via 1on1 matings. While the other group would prever a more natural way of fields of ganja pollinating towards a stable landrace like "in nature" with a little human selection in it.


As somebody who has usually a brutal realistic view AND living in europe, I would sure single out the "natural way". It's not possible over here, no space. What I can do is 1on1 matings. I can try to select a female, I can try to select a male and do the pollination. What I can't do is planting fields of 100's of seeds so... and neither can anybody else. Not shanti, not Nevil. Those day's are over. Authorities and/or criminals will cause loads of problems no matter where you are in the world.

So... the nature's way is more like the "dreamers" way in my opinion. No offence...
Click to expand...

nOpe, I assume your mention of 100s of plants points to my first post in this thread?

I take your point...and would say that in my brutally realistic world. 100 plant grows are safer than growing indoors. and still very possible.

5-10 plants IN my house...would get me 20 years in prison...GUARANTEED!:mad:

100 plants in the "bush" are less likely to be pinned on me...and much safer to me...in my view and circumstances.

but ...i guess once again...as someone wisely pointed out early in the thread...all our experiences and goals are different and we need to be clear about what those are in our questions and answers.

Take Care, North.
 
Anger managment

Mr japanfreak,
you might need anger managment i see you fighting with a lot of respectable people on this site like nev he is one of the best marijuana breeders of all times now hes trying to teach us how to breed i think everyone should put there ego"s aside and listen to the man not piss the guy off me myself would love to learn how to breed marijuana correctly
 
Nevil said:
It's a good point Joshua. Contrary to expectation, a lot of lines just don't click. Even with totally unrelated indicas and sativas, the results are not predictable. For every hybrid that made it into the catalogue, dozens didn't. When you isolated which strains went well together, what still remained was to find the best combination of single parents that out-performed all others. I narrowed down the genepool to the best of the best. Why mix the best combination of plants with the less successful sibling matings. For the sake of someones idea of what's best for the genepool?
People were generally paying me to help them grow the best of what a line or hybrid had to offer. I'm sure I got that part right. All the shit I culled made others champion growers. I loved that job. The gratitude that some people showed, for being able to be in the front row for the first time in their lives was very rewarding.
Most of the work was testing ideas about what went well together and refining it. As far as I can tell, the job is still the same.
N.
Click to expand...

I totally agree, for me, it is really about selection. The technical term is Artificial selection. What am I going to keep? I must have some reason for keeping it.

I always have a specific goal or goals in mind. I had one major goal when I started, above and beyond preservation, and that was to create an awesome strain that had the characteristic stonyness and flavor of the NL5Hz but that could realistically be grown outdoors in Northern Cali, and compete with the best commercial outdoor strains in terms of both timing and yeild. What I wound up with was a crazy combination of diverse and versatile hybrids, that outperformed anything I have ever seen, indoors or out.

I found when looking for a "nick" it was almost as important to find strains that had a sort of transparency(referring to genetic recombination), In terms of stonyness, I was looking for strains, which NL5hz could dominate, in terms of flavor, and potency, and effect. I guess I found strains, that meshed really well, while letting Haze dominate the high, yet also offering dominant traits that I was looking for like earlier budding cycle, and even heavier yields, and the trick was finding that strain that allowed for a finished product that was like NL5Hz, with timing, structure and yeild of the best outdoor Cali strains. I also found that with proper selection, the NL5hz offered structure that was superior to the strains it was combined with, and one of the major features I looked for was dominant monoploidal branching in the subsequent clone generation.

Is there anything you have noticed in selection, tips and tricks to finding the "nicks" or other things you look for in compatibility in general or especially, within the NL5hz?
 
North said:
nOpe, I assume your mention of 100s of plants points to my first post in this thread?

I take your point...and would say that in my brutally realistic world. 100 plant grows are safer than growing indoors. and still very possible.

5-10 plants IN my house...would get me 20 years in prison...GUARANTEED!:mad:

100 plants in the "bush" are less likely to be pinned on me...and much safer to me...in my view and circumstances.

but ...i guess once again...as someone wisely pointed out early in the thread...all our experiences and goals are different and we need to be clear about what those are in our questions and answers.

Take Care, North.
Click to expand...


You are right about the "goal" thing and I believe you that it may be possible to grow a field with 100 plants in your country outdoor. I also get your goal to aclimate a strain for better outdoor yield. All common sense. But how much % can you give that you can also harvest those 100 plants? Where fields like that are planted, security is low, criminality is high. That may make it possible to plant and grow, but not to harvest savely.

Maybe Im all wrong here, Im a young guy and havent seen much so... wasnt involved in any big operation :D.
 
GROVER said:
Mr japanfreak,
you might need anger managment i see you fighting with a lot of respectable people on this site like nev he is one of the best marijuana breeders of all times now hes trying to teach us how to breed i think everyone should put there ego"s aside and listen to the man not piss the guy off me myself would love to learn how to breed marijuana correctly
Click to expand...

I think you need to realize that I'm here laughing with a smile on my face. I think you need to take some reality classes.
 
dr Rockster said:
No of course it doesn't hurt the cannabis genome, the only way to do that is to introduce modern hybridised cannabis into environments where original landraces are grown.

So how do you think it's hurting things?
Click to expand...

I see people aren't very good at reading around here. I wouldn't ask a question if I knew the answer.
 
Japanfreak said:
Excuse me? It's a handle on the internet. I do a lot for my fellow man, I would dare bet a whole lot fucking more than you actually. How much of your money goes to charity there big guy? How much volunteer work you do big guy?

Better stick to your groupies seriously.
Click to expand...

anger managment needed seriously
 
Hey Nev,
I got a question for you or anybody who knows. Btw, I am no breeder but I am always interested in the subject.

Regarding the stalk and stems of plants: I have noticed that some hybrids have real flimsy branches while other hybrids have really strong branches. Both types may produce great flowers or buds but for obvious reasons the varieties with flimsy branches need support(Trainwreck comes to mind).

My question is, when selecting, is considering this part of the criteria and if so which side of the parents would be observed to pass this trait on(mother, father or both)?

I have to wonder if strong branching is a trait that has been carried over from non-drug varieties such as hemp, in order to strengthen the overall structure of flower bearing varieties?

Thanks,
sp
 
North said:
Nev, thanks for the reply.

I guess you see no merit on recurrent selection?

I would guess part of your response, and part of the derailing of this thread also...is as someone mentioned....

WHAT ARE YOUR GOALS?

My Friend, Myself and most of the folks on my home board are outdoor growers only. as mentioned in the second paragraph of my quote/post, the GOAL is acclimatizing strains to an enviroment...while also selecting for the traits you want.

I read the process as working a bit different than you mentioned in your respone...mainly that the plants that are kept would be a 50/50 split of male/female. at that rate 60% cull first go round, 80 % second, etc.

regardless.... as you mentioned in the opening page...your immediate goal is to breed a plant that will produce quality for the end user(grower) immediately.
thats great...if the plant would actually grow AND FINISH! I'd love to grow your haze, or any number of Shantis strains...and if i did by the end of the season...i'd have 15 foot trees...with no buds and the frost would have stopped me dead.

so my goals are different...at least to begin with... get me to F5 and then I'll select the best 1:1, tuned for my outdoor enviro...

Thanks and Take Care, North
Click to expand...

Hey North
If early flowering is a goal, that's one criteria that can be applied to males each gen. Otherwise, I'd just take seed from the 5 or 6 best females and plant them in different sections. Take seeds from the best female from every line and over time, cull half of the lines. When you are down to your best 2or3 lines, cross them with each other and start again.
N.
 
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