Breeding techniques

[joaquin386]

You all crack me up with this "preserve the gene pool" stuff. It's so humanly selfish of you to want to preserve every single little aspect of something. It's like my dead grandpa, I can't have him back! I might want to hang out with him again, but I never will. I have myself to look at as a reflection of him. Neville did an outstanding job at preserving something none of the rest of you complaining even thought about while he was doing it. He's one fucking man, you just wish you were there and could have taken part. It's the human in all of us, it's why we're all HERE. We question EVERYTHING, at least I do. I know Neville deserves credit, and not flack. You have the best of what he could preserve, stop complaining and do something with it.

Thank you Neville, and Shantibaba.

Ouchie that little thing might save one day something. Have you thinkabout it. As long as seeds can be keep with all their gene pool I think selection would not really matter as we normally do that

 

[joshuahazen]

bucktbong i think you have got it wrong mate. i have read lots on greyhounds and most other running dogs. well they have like lots off breeds been overly bottle necked. not to long back they had bull blood added to them because off defects ect because the greyhound gene pool became to small. the result was a much faster dog then the original greyhound and because off it we see brindle in greyhounds today. we also have whippets that are faster than greyhound that are a subspecies with terrier in them. the whippet cant keep the speed like a greyhound though. that's my point when people say inbreeding bottlenecks there right. however we don't have one breed off dog and we can mend it because of this by adding another breed when the gene pool get bottle necked to bad a little doesn't harm anything. its the same with most living thing. we can look at most old British breeds off dog under the UK kennel club and see how bottle necked they are. bull dogs that cant keep there eyes in there heads and struggle to breath something that wasn't a problem with them. all that need doing to sort this out is introduce some new genes from other breeds and to breed back for the original traits. we cant do this because off the kennel club and its rules were you need there permission to cross an unrelated breed in to the breed. i know there's a few bull dog fans in the UK that breed dogs that are more true to the old bull dogs of years gone then the ones you get with a kc paper today. mostly because of the disgusting state the kennel club as left this breed in like Lot's of other pure breed dog's. some times a few more genes are all that's needed to save the gene pool. its the same with most things how meany strain off cannabis are there? and were doomed there's no diversity in the gene pool because off bottle necking lol. i was always told to look to the past for answers to the future. sometime greed like kc papers getting you a extra thousand pound a pup can be the only reason we put these dog through so much bottle necking when population become low. nothing more its so sad people pay more because the breed is rare some times only because the survival rate at birth and life span is suffering from bottle necking. its the same with most things. the only problem is if it can be fixed it should and a price drop because of a health population isn't a bad thing if you really love a breed. its the same with most living things if there's lots off breed able types them there isn't much bottle necking over the entire population like the dog as a animal its self. we can mend bottle necking as long as there's other strain to do so.

Good point Brock. And that is also good support in favor 1:1 breeding, because it is the simplest most effective and surefire way to create multiple strains, and track pedigrees. Then in the event one strain becomes negatively inbred, you can just cross it into another closely related strain... problem solved, and you can surf for quite a while on the resulting hybrid vigor.

In my experience though, with proper line breeding you never even have to get that extreme.

This pseudo scientific idea that 1:1 breeding is somehow going to limit the genepool and cause the ultimate genetic demise of the plant, is ridiculous. Maybe it is even a conspiracy of sorts. Sad that there are so many fools who buy into the idea.

The truth is 100 breeders working separately in isolation from one another all starting with the same polyhybrid stock, breeding typologically for the unique traits they desire using 1:1 breeding techniques, for 10-20 generations will come up with 100 very different strains of weed. In the end this actually greatly increases genetic diversity, thereby actually strengthening and increasing the genepool of the plant.



About English Bulldogs, it is sad to see what is happening with that breed, have you researched the American Bulldog? google them if you haven't. They are magnificent working dogs. They don't require artificial insemination and they don't have the myriad genetic problems that plague the English Bulldog. They are very closely related and I think they could be used to replenish the ailing genepool of the English Bulldog.

 

[Nevil]

If it isn't a breeder's job to protect our drug pool then whose job is it Nevil?

Are you still harping on about this crap Gitt? What have you done and for whose benefit? The job I gave myself, was to save the genes that I decided were good and put them out there for people who at that time had no access to quality stuff. What do you want me to do, save people from my good genetics? You're seriously loosing me Gitt, I thought you were smarter than this. If you were right, then I wouldn't have one all those cups, and you and everyone else wouldn't be growing stuff descended from my work.
N.

 

[joshuahazen]

...If it isn't a breeder's job to protect our drug pool then whose job is it Nevil?...



...Without a doubt 1:1 matings are detrimental to our shared pool and this is and issue that should be of grave concern to all of us...

.

This assumption that 1:1 matings are detrimental, flies in face of everything we know about genetics and breeding.



The breeders job is to produce superior specimens. To achieve whatever goals he set out to achieve in his breeding program.

If you see it as your job too "preserve" the genepool of your plants with open pollination, then by all means do so, that is your perrogative.

It is like Moonunit says, they are both tools, and they both have merit. But to say that 1:1 breeding is somehow detrimental...

Well, that is sheer idiocy.

it would be like saying that the small paintbrush is detrimental to the painting industry, because it doesn't use enough paint, so you should only use the large paintbrush.

Well what happens when you need to paint the corner or the windowsill?
Duhhhhhhh?

Get off your high horse. The survival of Dope is not dependant on you, or Nevil, or any of us singularly.

Get a grip dude, seriously.

You preserve your little strain, while the rest of us figure out how to improve ours.

 

[Kangativa]

Actually I find open pollination can be the one that leads to the downfall of a good strain.
what happens when your open pollinated seeds are handed out to people and they grow them and lets say half of them get plants that were from the crossing of a weaker male or female and they dont like them.....my guess is they never grow it again, so it is lost.
Now lets say you do a 1.1 mating using the best female and best male and the seeds from that are all good strong, potent healthy plants.....my guess is that everyone will keep them......there you go preservation of a strain
You know I have been doing 1:1 selection for years and I know that every seed I hand out will be exactly the same as what I am growing and I know that they will have no problems with anything, that in its self is satifaction for me knowing that I have done my job properly through good selection of that perfect female/male cross.
If someone wants to bring a early flowering time to that strain then add something else, but make sure it is the best male or female......this is what breeding is all about.

 

[brock1]

So why isn't corn bred like horses and dogs?

If it isn't a breeder's job to protect our drug pool then whose job is it Nevil?

You need to Open Pollinate to "back up your work" and maintain variation for future selections.

You need to use recurrent selection to create superior truebreeding lines.

Then you can use reciprocal recurrent selection to create healthy F1 hybrids.


If you go through the math of it you see keeping your N so low does you no good. Even selecting your best 4 ladies and using only one male to pollinate them all doesn't open up the pool enough.

Without a doubt 1:1 matings are detrimental to our shared pool and this is and issue that should be of grave concern to all of us.


Dr. Rockstar- The breeding methodology for an outcrossed species isn't influenced by if it's grown outdoors or indoors. They have the same detrimental effect even if your progeny is under lights. It still leads to tossing out favorable alleles and a population with less adaptability.

why isn't corn breed like dogs. well the last time i checked corn is a self pollination its not evolved as much as a dog or even a cannabis plant. so maybe its because you don't have to chop the dogs head of to stop it mating with its self. comparing corn to cannabis is like comparing dogs to humans and why we don't breed with hower grandparents.

well to be honest it's you responsibility to preserve the gene pool just like its mine and everyone else who cannabis concerns. you don't think a race horse breeder want to save the wild horses of the world or someone that breeds rats wants to save all the rats off the world? well they should just like everyone on this forum as a responsibility to.

if you look at the maths how meany times has Nevil made a winner and its still going strong now? how meany rippers just make seeds from them now and say its something totally different and win cups ect with them?

 

[brock1]

Good point Brock. And that is also good support in favor 1:1 breeding, because it is the simplest most effective and surefire way to create multiple strains, and track pedigrees. Then in the event one strain becomes negatively inbred, you can just cross it into another closely related strain... problem solved, and you can surf for quite a while on the resulting hybrid vigor.

In my experience though, with proper line breeding you never even have to get that extreme.

This pseudo scientific idea that 1:1 breeding is somehow going to limit the genepool and cause the ultimate genetic demise of the plant, is ridiculous. Maybe it is even a conspiracy of sorts. Sad that there are so many fools who buy into the idea.

The truth is 100 breeders working separately in isolation from one another all starting with the same polyhybrid stock, breeding typologically for the unique traits they desire using 1:1 breeding techniques, for 10-20 generations will come up with 100 very different strains of weed. In the end this actually greatly increases genetic diversity, thereby actually strengthening and increasing the genepool of the plant.



About English Bulldogs, it is sad to see what is happening with that breed, have you researched the American Bulldog? google them if you haven't. They are magnificent working dogs. They don't require artificial insemination and they don't have the myriad genetic problems that plague the English Bulldog. They are very closely related and I think they could be used to replenish the ailing genepool of the English Bulldog.

your right about good breeders being able to keep good breeds going. its just a shame they all want the dog that won the last crufts to breed with there bitches. eventually all good thinks must come to an end that's the way life is joshua. there's only so long you can keep something the same just like man was once a monkey and birds were once reptiles. all that can be done is to keep the genes you want and get shot of any we don't want. that's the only reason greyhound have brindle in them because some people like it. i am not really a bull breed person mate i do like them but i like them for what they can do not what they have done in the past. being in the UK there's not a lot i could do with them here so i keep my little terriers and lurchers usually with a touch of bull in them. i don't believe there's anything on this planet that hasn't changed since life began and i don't think there ever will be. its like pissing against the wind imoa. all we can do is postpone the inevitable and carry on the genes we want in future generations.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Good point Brock. And that is also good support in favor 1:1 breeding, because it is the simplest most effective and surefire way to create multiple strains, and track pedigrees.

While 1:1's are simple they aren't the most effective and certainly aren't a surefire way to create multiple 'strains.'

Then in the event one strain becomes negatively inbred, you can just cross it into another closely related strain... problem solved, and you can surf for quite a while on the resulting hybrid vigor.

Ah, it sounds so easy in your head. If only...

Sadly you can't cross flo to blueberry to get rid of the inbreeding depression.

In my experience though, with proper line breeding you never even have to get that extreme.

I'm glad you're better than Dj Short.

This pseudo scientific idea that 1:1 breeding is somehow going to limit the genepool and cause the ultimate genetic demise of the plant, is ridiculous. Maybe it is even a conspiracy of sorts. Sad that there are so many fools who buy into the idea.

It's sad that your knowledge around these parts passes as scientific. If you don't understand how using two INDIVIDUALS limits the genepool for an outcrossing species I don't know where to even start with you. Yeah, it's a huge conspiracy. People are conspiring to stay ignorant.

The truth is 100 breeders working separately in isolation from one another all starting with the same polyhybrid stock, breeding typologically for the unique traits they desire using 1:1 breeding techniques, for 10-20 generations will come up with 100 very different strains of weed. In the end this actually greatly increases genetic diversity, thereby actually strengthening and increasing the genepool of the plant.

This process will not increase genetic diversity. How do you imagine that happens?

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Are you still harping on about this crap Gitt? What have you done and for whose benefit? The job I gave myself, was to save the genes that I decided were good and put them out there for people who at that time had no access to quality stuff. What do you want me to do, save people from my good genetics? You're seriously loosing me Gitt, I thought you were smarter than this. If you were right, then I wouldn't have one all those cups, and you and everyone else wouldn't be growing stuff descended from my work.
N.

Take yourself out of the equation and answer my question. This has little to do with your work Nevil. Try to keep the ego out of it. Maybe you think it's the responsibility of those maintaining landraces? Maybe you think it's the job of gene banks, seed banks, government, universities. Maybe you don't care, maybe you've never even thought about it. I still think it's a question that deserves and answer.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

This assumption that 1:1 matings are detrimental, flies in face of everything we know about genetics and breeding.

That's funny because of everyone taking part in this discussion I only know of one person who has studied genetics at a post graduate level. He's not on your side of this issue.

It is like Moonunit says, they are both tools, and they both have merit. But to say that 1:1 breeding is somehow detrimental...

Well, that is sheer idiocy.

Genetic drift is just the best guys! Listen to Josh, he breeds some fantastic bitches; they're all dogs tho.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

why isn't corn breed like dogs. well the last time i checked corn is a self pollination its not evolved as much as a dog or even a cannabis plant. so maybe its because you don't have to chop the dogs head of to stop it mating with its self. comparing corn to cannabis is like comparing dogs to humans and why we don't breed with hower grandparents.

This just in: corn is an outcrosser. And it's a great plant to look towards when thinking about cannabis breeding.

 

[Nevil]

Originally Posted by Nevil View Post
Are you still harping on about this crap Gitt? What have you done and for whose benefit?

Originally Posted by GreenintheThumb View Post
I still think it's a question that deserves and answer.

Another guy who thinks I owe him answers but doesn't respond to questions.
N.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Nice dodge. I even softballed some potential answers to you.

 

[Nevil]

Didn't you read my post on donating the few landraces I found to the University of Wageningen.
Why are you dumping all this shit on me? I've spent most of my life dodging prison for doing what I did. Like many, I've been raided by cops and generally had my life trashed by authorities. I've stuck my neck out further than most and further than you have and to make you happy, I've got to save the genepool as well. I saved the part of the genepool I liked by passing it on to 1000s of people. If my life's work was not good enough for you, well ain't that a shame.
N.

 

[MrGreenJeans]

Didn't you read my post on donating the few landraces I found to the University of Wageningen.
Why are you dumping all this shit on me? I've spent most of my life dodging prison for doing what I did. Like many, I've been raided by cops and generally had my life trashed by authorities. I've stuck my neck out further than most and further than you have and to make you happy, I've got to save the genepool as well. I saved the part of the genepool I liked by passing it on to 1000s of people. If my life's work was not good enough for you, well ain't that a shame.
N.

I thank you very much for the work you do for the community. Your strains and contributions will live forever. Ignore the haters and breed on.

 

[Hazy Lady]

Didn't you read my post on donating the few landraces I found to the University of Wageningen.
Why are you dumping all this shit on me? I've spent most of my life dodging prison for doing what I did. Like many, I've been raided by cops and generally had my life trashed by authorities. I've stuck my neck out further than most and further than you have and to make you happy, I've got to save the genepool as well. I saved the part of the genepool I liked by passing it on to 1000s of people. If my life's work was not good enough for you, well ain't that a shame.
N.

Hello Nevil, I was hoping since you admitted you were being facetious with your initial posts we might move on to discuss some breeding, seems not?

You can't be surprised people balked at your comment - myself included, now you clarified that you meant 1.1 pairings of polyhybrids I doubt many would have any argument with you.
If you had been as cavalier (and actually serious!) with any landrace strains you would have rightly been vilified.

It is just a shame Chimera left, the guy has a brain and could have been a great addition to any breeding discussion.
I can't really blame him leaving, that poor sod has been saddled with the fems tag in much the same way Arthur Jackson became 'two sheds' only this isn't remotely funny.

I would really like to discuss male progeny testing with you/any breeders if possible?

 

[joshuahazen]

While 1:1's are simple they aren't the most effective and certainly aren't a surefire way to create multiple 'strains.'

Actually, they are. Its not so complicated if you know how. Creating a pure breeding strain from a hybrid, while it is complicated is not as difficult as people think. starting with breeds that compliment each other, and with the right tenacity and a little luck, traits can be fixed in as little as 10 generations.

Ah, it sounds so easy in your head. If only...

It really is so easy, and not just in my head, but what is even easier is not allowing your strains to get negatively inbred in the first place through proper breeding.

Sadly you can't cross flo to blueberry to get rid of the inbreeding depression.

I don't know what flow is, but I could get rid of blueberry's inbreeding depression in one generation, and make it better than its ever been, by simply crossing it with my lamest, weakest haze hybrid. But I wouldn't adulterate my strains in such a manner.

I grew blueberry many years ago before it was inbred for one cycle, and I found it to be weak(impotent). I liked its early budding cycle, its exotic color, flavor and aroma, and its exceptionally tight dense buds. However, it didn't get me high. That is because at the time I was acclimated to a particularly potent variety of haze.

As such I rejected it as a potential candidate for hybridization to my strains.

I'm glad you're better than Dj Short.

You are? well I'm flattered, I wouldn't say I was better than anyone, except for maybe a murderous freak like Hitler or Stalin.

But if you want to discuss Dj Short's breeding techniques that is fine. From the little I know, it seems to me his techniques are inferior. First of all he goes way to deep with inbreeding, F6 and beyond. Secondly, I have heard that he doesn't believe in backcrossing, that is just crazy. Third, from what I can gather, he doesn't do much by way of linebreeding. If you are inbreeding and you don't practice linebreeding... well, lets just say that is a recipe for disaster. I am not at all surprised his strains have fallen apart.

It's sad that your knowledge around these parts passes as scientific. If you don't understand how using two INDIVIDUALS limits the genepool for an outcrossing species I don't know where to even start with you. Yeah, it's a huge conspiracy. People are conspiring to stay ignorant.

Um, I know using two individuals limits the genepool, that is the idea.
That is what typological breeding is all about my friend. WAKE UP!




I know there are a lot of egomaniacs in this industry, and what better way to protect trade secrets from the likes of Nevil and MNS than through the dissemination of misinformation.

I am not really serious of course, this was a joke, however it would not surprise me if there was some element of this going on, I have been checking out some of the breeding threads over at icmag, and honestly, that shit just doesn't make sense.

This process will not increase genetic diversity. How do you imagine that happens?

Once again you prove with your words just how ignorant and shortsighted you really are.

Change in the gene pool happens the same way through artificial selection as it does through natural selection, by cause of random, and more importantly, through recombinant genetic mutation. Do you know how it was that Darwin discovered his theory of evolution? He visited a small Island known as Galapagos. This island was isolated from the rest of the world, and for this reason, the life on this island were quite different from life elsewhere.
Breeding using hybrids, especially polyhybrids, greatly accelerates this process, because of the nature of recombinant DNA. Luther Burbank proved this, at the turn of the last century, when he created several new species of plants.

If you look at agriculture throughout the world you will find that it is societies being isolated from one another which has lead to the extroadinary diversity that we see within domestic crops. The advent of Globalization has threatened this diversity.

 

[Reason]

Wow...

I have read nearly every post in this ever growing beast of a thread and I have to admit that I'm confused about all the..for lack of a better word..bickering.

I could very well be mistaken, but I'm sure everyone here either has grown, will grow, or is growing Nevil and Shanti's plants, but some are complaining for whatever reason when, from an amateur breeder's perspective, I would love to just get my hands on F1 generation, 1:1 mated superior genetics from MNS then take my chances with the great unknown that the seed industry has become. I just think that maybe everyone can just move on and take advantage of an opportunity to pick one the pioneering minds of the breeding revolution.

Just an observation...


On that note, Nevil... If one were to say, grow NL5/Haze from your F1 stock and select for NL characteristics in a few males and "the best" 2 or 3 females, and interbreed them between each other (Male ABC x Fem ABC each), would the resulting F2 generation have some near pure NL5 phenos? Or would I be better off using every plant in the pack and 'open pollinate' them all?

Instinct says selective breeding, but I have limited knowledge of the subject in general.


Also, as far as using your genetics to "create original strains"...are you against it completely, or just against people using your genetics and lying about it?

Thanks to all and for all.




-Jut

 

[GreenintheThumb]

It really is so easy, and not just in my head, but what is even easier is not allowing your strains to get negatively inbred in the first place through proper breeding.

Awww, the first time we agree

Change in the gene pool happens the same way through artificial selection as it does through natural selection, by cause of random, and more importantly, through recombinant genetic mutation.

Not really increasing diversity. You can only paint with the colors you already have.

btw recombinant dna is artificial and takes place through gene splicing. I think you're talking about genetic recombination but again it doesn't create genes. You can only work with the diversity that has been maintained thus far.

 

[joshuahazen]

Awww, the first time we agree




Not really increasing diversity. You can only paint with the colors you already have.

btw recombinant dna is artificial and takes place through gene splicing. I think you're talking about genetic recombination but again it doesn't create genes. You can only work with the diversity that has been maintained thus far.

Actually, if you have the primary colors, red, blue, and yellow you can make all kinds of different colors, but that is another debate.

How do you think we evolved from something more primitive than bacterium to the complex and marvelous creatures that we all are?
Its called evolution, and breeding is directed evolution.