90s NL5 x Haze USA Version. AKA. The Cough

Jahnova

MNS Award Winner
The old g13hz C.
Not far enough in flower to tell but looks like C offspring. The selected CG13 was actually a pretty dificult plant to grow. Most of the old growers stayed away from it but it happened to like me for some reason so i grew it quite some times. So if it is CG13 and he knew he could have picked an easier plant to grow lol. But again, i wouldnt grow anything GH produced after 2000 but Franco had quite a library of plants they did not produce and he happened to have the exact same 75% Haze i grew 6 or 7 years before with the exact same hermie tendencies in the exact same week of flowering. And he had Nevils Haze too and he also labeled them as different plants.
 

#NightMare#

Well-known member
Not far enough in flower to tell but looks like C offspring. The selected CG13 was actually a pretty dificult plant to grow. Most of the old growers stayed away from it but it happened to like me for some reason so i grew it quite some times. So if it is CG13 and he knew he could have picked an easier plant to grow lol. But again, i wouldnt grow anything GH produced after 2000 but Franco had quite a library of plants they did not produce and he happened to have the exact same 75% Haze i grew 6 or 7 years before with the exact same hermie tendencies in the exact same week of flowering. And he had Nevils Haze too and he also labeled them as different plants.
Im n
Im not sure which haze your refering too, but im on about 5ac in particular. There were some earlier versions made of it before nevil perfected it early 90's. 5ac refers to 5axhzC aka nl5hzAxhzC. Here is the evidence it an many hybrids including many that never were made public or neither were put in the catalogue. Nevil used to keep 5ac as breeding plant. Some of the south holland guys hold one of the early versions of 5ac.
View attachment 58243



This list was confirmed legit right here by nevil himself, I think he also corrected one or two mistakes on it. Its from 1986-1990 breedings. You'll also see the finished version aka 1997 nevils haze (5a(2a)xhzC) isnt on the list yet as it was made just after.
Im not sure what franco was given but nevil here did say 5ac was referred to as 3/4haze as well. I do know it was franco who reversed g13hz C and along with arjan they actually sold it as nevils haze. This is ghs nevils haze from one of the disc packs franco himself made. Those who know will clearly recognize it fir what it is, the old g13hz C. If franco knew it was g13hz an knowingly put it out as nevils haze or was genuinely mislead I dont know.
Ghs Neville's haze (actually g13haze C)View attachment 58244
And Franco labeled it 75% Haze too. Because it was definitely not the same as Nevil's Haze.
Not heard of that one before. Apart from its instability issues was it any good.

I liked franco, definitely one cool guy. Yes he did manage to get some rare things, like his exodus cheese cut which actually came directly from the guys who found it. Made some interesting things too. Did you ever get to try their nlhaze (mist)?

That g13xhaze c could be really difficult for most people but wen done right was really really good. Do you know if its still about as most people are saying it got lost ?
 

shantibaba

Breeder and moderator
Hi All

well i can tell you for a fact that Nevil and I never left plants with Arjan when we both left to set up MNS. It was a strange period where commercialism began reversing all our breeding work and honest growing of strains...the money god prevailed over the correct strains represented. Also a lot of people came to NL in this period to try and set their mark like Soma, DNA and such....so it was a period that I distanced myself from in NL as I left to CH in 98, 99. Since then I did not see anything that really caught my attention and this is why a lot of USA strains began revealing themselves in NL as so called new hybrids...but most were versions of kush and skunk with differing flavours. Of course there were still quiet growers doing their thing but the trust between these growers and coffeeshops began to reduce as it all went down to the dollar unfortunately. When you go today to Amsterdam it is not so easy to find unique things on offer...and many shops just substitute one flower for something with a name once they run out...so it became difficult to rely on original names in NL nowadays.
Like most things that are sort after the stories that developed have come out of a need to confuse the end user to make sales. Franco was a nice guy, but he came into the scene quite a time after all these things were made so he may have been told things that seemed true but he had no previous knowledge to refer to to see if it was correct. This is how the seed companies worked as there was no regulatory body or union to set up rules...and still is not!

all the best sb
 

Jahnova

MNS Award Winner
That g13xhaze c could be really difficult for most people but wen done right was really really good. Do you know if its still about as most people are saying it got lost ?
I know Franco had it too so if "the King" knows how to keep plants alive unfortunately he's your best bet.
And yeah, when done right it could yield massively but when done wrong it turned to hay real quick. Very sensitive lady.
Of course there were still quiet growers doing their thing but the trust between these growers and coffeeshops began to reduce as it all went down to the dollar
This. And thats how "the King" and Franco and the whole of the Dam obtained a lot of stuff. They started tossing mad money on "elite clones" while other people's stuff got used without consent. Sad times really.
 

Mr_gotanyhaze

Active member
And just to set it straight mine hasn't been miraculously resurrected from anywhere, Im just new to this forum and found this while looking up strawberry cough as thats likely the coughs next cross for me. That or Showboat (archive seed bank). This is the story of our cough since 2001 and then it was ours and we even had it on our menu at our dispensary at the time Medicine Man Medical Market, was the name of the dispensary. it is now held exclusively to me. I do have seeds of my cross that come out of that warehouse that are regs but im not parting ways with a single one, sorry!
I believe you man your deal you describe is actually not unheard of. First old guy I met growing bud got started just like that. He met someone with a catalog of clones and seeds from years of past work. They owneda hydroshop and would front all the equipment neccesary for 12 plant grow 1 under each 1000(plant counts laws) they even vegged the first few rounds while old guy got settled in. He paid back equipment and owed half his grow for 1 st year. Well well worth it. Original diesel a rks esque skunk cut prozac gdp yumboldt white Russian etc etc. Point being people don't know what they dont know. Nevil knew there were other good lines out there and loved to search... this whole " greenhouse never had parent plant " doesn't matter at all. They were being supplied by nev with pinnacle of haze. Of course Franco would pop these beans and save best ones. Arjan might not know shit about growing but he has cash can easily buy elite clone only. Don't let shanti bully you with that rhetoric. Do your thing mang.
 

musashi

Site Moderator
Staff member
I believe you man your deal you describe is actually not unheard of. First old guy I met growing bud got started just like that. He met someone with a catalog of clones and seeds from years of past work. They owneda hydroshop and would front all the equipment neccesary for 12 plant grow 1 under each 1000(plant counts laws) they even vegged the first few rounds while old guy got settled in. He paid back equipment and owed half his grow for 1 st year. Well well worth it. Original diesel a rks esque skunk cut prozac gdp yumboldt white Russian etc etc. Point being people don't know what they dont know. Nevil knew there were other good lines out there and loved to search... this whole " greenhouse never had parent plant " doesn't matter at all. They were being supplied by nev with pinnacle of haze. Of course Franco would pop these beans and save best ones. Arjan might not know shit about growing but he has cash can easily buy elite clone only. Don't let shanti bully you with that rhetoric. Do your thing mang.
Shanti comes on to his own website to lay down some truth to clarify what went down as he was there only to be called a bully by someone who wasn’t there. Kibitzers got me LMAO! No wonder he and Nevil are/were reluctant to share, what with having to put up with this crap.

🤙mu
 

dingo

Member
Nevil made all his hybrids in primary form before any catalogs seed releases. Remember he got his pure hazes in 1984. In the 80's the 5ac (the later 1997 named nevils haze) was know as 5ac an also 3/4 haze .
There was also a map made with red dots, nevils nl5haze had flooded USA already. an buy the early 90's the USA was completely covered in these red dots. Shanti might stil have one of the pictures taken. Its pretty obvious were the cough comes from as to those who know it carries the traits of haze C which were easily identified an traits from nevils 5cut which only he had.
how can you know the traits when the cut doesn't exist? so 1 haze is all this way and the other is that way. ok.

the 88 catalog says NL1. haze doesn't appear before then. the 90 catalog says NL5. green merchant was 1989. so it's quite possible that the subject of this thread is a NL1 hybrid.

let's see documentation that 5ac existed in the 80's or even early 90's.

it's this guy saying holland haze
The first they ever heard of haze was the "holland haze" which is how I referred to Nevil's NL5hz, and thats why I always thought the haze brothers was a myth someone made up to take credit from Nevil. I realized it had some credence when I got on here and saw a lot of the old hightimes articles and heard Nevil himself corroborating the story, however I still remain a bit skeptical, because I know a lot of the people who were big on the scene over there in Santa Cruz going all the way back to Janice Joplin, and none of them ever heard of haze, except the haze I brought to that scene.
which feels a bit out there, but i never heard anything referred to Holland this or Nevil that, and if you had access to the High Times archive, i suspect that would be reflected there and people would be calling things by their official name. now, that would be a good place to put a date on the first mention of Ft Collins, perhaps in THMQ. yes let's see that map.
 
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shantibaba

Breeder and moderator
Hi All

For years, Nevil, Howard and I have said things because we were present at events or in the time frame we were talking about. Most characters I talk to were not born, yet their gospel or references were possibly from the 1st story they were told so they had no reason not to believe it. Add the fact that most seed companies made their own versions of a name sake seed from their source seeds which were never regulated or controlled or anything...so even if the original parents plants were in front of certain companies or people there would still exist uncertainty and doubt due to what ever side of the story that person wishes to believe is true. Like politics , religion and love which are all personal choices that will never have definitive answers that are correct or incorrect, however we can all still love one another regardless of your stance on these topics...?
I do not care if people wish to believe me or others on these thing in reality as I see it as a personal choice based on your info...but please remember when you directly ask someone something about a particular time or event, it does not go well to have opinions about it, since it is their version they are responding with. Things may not fit your version, but if you were not there, there is very little to say in fact! So keeping an open mind and trying the seeds certain companies have with that name may be the best way to rate the truth when it all boils down to it.
Just to conclude this post, I have male plants which are more important in breeding the seeds we found recipes to over the years...and most seed companies existing never kept this clear to others or even have males anymore...so the real facts of strains still rely on original parent plants or breeding plants, not on copied generic names.

Enjoy the discussion and try to view all things equally if possible. All the best Shantibaba
 

#NightMare#

Well-known member
how can you know the traits when the cut doesn't exist? so 1 haze is all this way and the other is that way. ok.

the 88 catalog says NL1. haze doesn't appear before then. the 90 catalog says NL5. green merchant was 1989. so it's quite possible that the subject of this thread is a NL1 hybrid.

let's see documentation that 5ac existed in the 80's or even early 90's.

it's this guy saying holland haze

which feels a bit out there, but i never heard anything referred to Holland this or Nevil that, and if you had access to the High Times archive, i suspect that would be reflected there and people would be calling things by their official name. now, that would be a good place to put a date on the first mention of Ft Collins, perhaps in THMQ. yes let's see that map.
I already showed you the evidence. If you look there are dates on that list from 87 to 1990. What was sold as haze x nl (was actually nl x haze C) I put a picture up of. Most were like the picture really an the odd stocky ones wernt like the 5hz they were more sparse structurally quite different. The cough is well know, kyle had it an made strawberry cough with it an knew what it was, dynasty have it, an quite a few others.

Would the seeds in this conversation be regularly cough ? Or are they cough x male og ? Think someone already made cough x ssh in regular form which have been out there afew years. Its a good cutting though other wise it wouldn't have been around so long.
 
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Islandgrower

Past Award Winner
I already showed you the evidence. If you look there are dates on that list from 87 to 1990. What was sold as haze x nl (was actually nl x haze C) I put a picture up of. Most were like the picture really an the odd stocky ones wernt like the 5hz they were more sparse structurally quite different. The cough is well know, kyle had it an made strawberry cough with it an knew what it was, dynasty have it, an quite a few others.

Would the seeds in this conversation be regularly cough ? Or are they cough x male og ? Think someone already made cough x ssh in regular form which have been out there afew years. Its a good cutting though other wise it wouldn't have been around so long.
Kyle kushman did not make strawberry cough . He obtained it from a grower he met . He said so in an interview with the ganjieer
 

dingo

Member
The cough is well know, kyle had it an made strawberry cough with it an knew what it was, dynasty have it, an quite a few others.

Would the seeds in this conversation be regularly cough ? Or are they cough x male og ? Think someone already made cough x ssh in regular form which have been out there afew years. Its a good cutting though other wise it wouldn't have been around so long.
what this thread is really about then is the Dynasty narrative. what Dynasty says or was allegedly told is not very confirmable. does it have a ring of truth?

so the story is that "Sam" was not the only one in a position to acquire a few seeds, and grow it for many years? and this same person not only flew in haze circles but also nl, i see. and the Ft Collins (not really a Mecca) cut is still growing, so where is this weed being sold? who exactly in the past 20 years is selling Ft Collins Cough? you'd think a product that a lot of people have been asking for would be sold, if not in name only.

the 2 coughs have nothing to do with each other besides supposed haze ancestry and the name. how are all these people getting Haze Bros seed from late 70's Socal greenhouse sinse that only Sam and magazine contributors (assuming that Sam was not the writer of these articles, including the "leaked" 1981 catalog offering ohaze) seem to have ever seen?

i can't see exactly what your list has to do with the Seed Bank catalog.
 

#NightMare#

Well-known member
what this thread is really about then is the Dynasty narrative. what Dynasty says or was allegedly told is not very confirmable. does it have a ring of truth?

so the story is that "Sam" was not the only one in a position to acquire a few seeds, and grow it for many years? and this same person not only flew in haze circles but also nl, i see. and the Ft Collins (not really a Mecca) cut is still growing, so where is this weed being sold? who exactly in the past 20 years is selling Ft Collins Cough? you'd think a product that a lot of people have been asking for would be sold, if not in name only.

the 2 coughs have nothing to do with each other besides supposed haze ancestry and the name. how are all these people getting Haze Bros seed from late 70's Socal greenhouse sinse that only Sam and magazine contributors (assuming that Sam was not the writer of these articles, including the "leaked" 1981 catalog offering ohaze) seem to have ever seen?

i can't see exactly what your list has to do with the Seed Bank catalog.
I doubt others have aquired haze seed from the haze brothers, I personally think most haze based things around now are descendants of sam or nevils work. With nevil being the only person who used directly first generation plants from usa made haze to make his haze varieties. No one else did that. He didn't inbreed a f1 over an over an then pick out haze parents to make them.So if there were any seeds found or acquired from the haze bros they now would be inbred haze at best. An sams 81 catalogue was just a mock catalogue an he has already said he never sold no haze in the usa. So you tell me were these supposed haze bros (non dutch travled) versions come from all of a sudden in the last few years ?
That list comes from private sales nevil was doing while at the seedbank. I found it on this site an nevil himself confirmed it an the varieties on there as his.
I dont know of anyone selling the cough, last I knew it was a clone. So even the seeds spoke about on this thread are cough x og. There is only one fort Collins cough ive never heard about another.
Even the guy who has these seeds spoke about in the thread says he has tried nl5x haze seed an their the same as the cough but something is missing in the seeds he has tried. Well for a start I dont think those f1 nl5xhaze it comes from are available an probably haven't been around for many many years. Nevil himself would have last made them around 1993. So I would have suggested actually comparing those to the cough as what the cough seed holder says is missing in other seeds would have been there in the original seeds.
Anyways il leave you guys to it as were just going round in circles. Like I said before haze C traits were uniquel an with only nevil holding it back in those days an the cough seed holder confirming its almost a replica in its traits, scents an flavours to nl5xhaze C seeds from the last two decades but something is missing in the seeds I dont think there is much more I can say.
 
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Wuachuma

Member
I can see The Cough being entirely American

NL5 was made in conjunction between Seattle WA and Hawaii (BOEL Hawaiian Sativa x Greg's NL)
Haze was made in USA and made its rounds, especially among BOEL

I had seeds from BOEL ranging from the 1960's through the 1980's
One pack of those seeds was labeled NL x Haze
Who knows whats in there because I lost all BOEL stuff, except for their Hawaiian, to a fire last year
 
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quinxstar

Past Award Winner
in the middle late of the 90's with the white widow was exactly the same the strain was very popular all coffees shop had is white widow but 90% of them are both skunk and no link with the real one
i remember the white widow from tilburg was very insane and the breda one very good but i think now is more a cross of white skunk and no pure white widow

you have the same thing with the amenesia in the 2000's all the coffees got one but majority was not real too

majority of smoking peoples dont know cannabis you can sale every thing you want with a commercial name
 

Mr_gotanyhaze

Active member
heres a question to ponder. greenhouse now lists arjans haze 1 as g13 haze. and going with the theory that nevils haze ghs could be g13 haze what is the difference? 2 different phenos selfed? while ghs 100 percent takes liberties with pedigrees and filial generations, they also give some very useful hard data for breeders. which in the end is what matters most the cannabinoid profile terpene profile but you also need the pedigree to understand the relationships between profiles.

these are headspace volatile terpene tests. regardless of the specific haze parents, "cough" strains are high ocimene by nature, which is also a "marker" terpene for nevils haze male progeny usually showing up as the second or third most prevalent terpene. ocimene is responsible for that musty wet basement smell we all love. it is a decongestant and expectorant(hence the coughing). ocimene has been used in traditional indian medicine for thousands of years(harvested from tulsi holy basil),it has stimulant properties, can act as a pheromone to attract pollinators or attract predators of the plants herbivore enemies. ocimene also provides contact security as it will cause irritation to your skin. if youve ever broken up some good bud and all of sudden felt flush, or get hives walking thru the ladies, thats ocimene at work.and this protection can work in synergy with pinene or myrcene like a turpentine.

there are 2 separate ocimene synthases found in haze. the most common is co produced with myrcene at a fixed ratio and the second produces ocimene solo. when they are both present it allows for wide variation in ocimene content since the second synthase is capable of producing just ocimene. i do not like myrcene above .5 percent as it induces couch lock. but below that level it can give off a nice mango earthy smell. one of the biggest differences in haze profiles is this primary 1, 2 punch. i prefer 1. pinene 2. ocimene compared to 1myrcene 2.ocimene. in the piffcon results only one cultivar had pinene as primary which was arjans haze 3 (nevils haze x "laos"(afghan/hawaiian) all other profiles had myrcene as #1, and nearly every single cultivar had ocimene as #2, with the exception of some silk lines which showed incredible camphene content, while the other silk line had highest ocimene by far(.49)

since piffcon results are not allowed to be posted here, i cant show ya. but in these 2 terpene tests the 2 types of ocimene are marked 12 and 13. both the synthases are found in group B below map
 

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musashi

Site Moderator
Staff member
Piffcat is that you?
Seems everyone of your diatribes strays into infomercial territory. In all of your posts, I see nothing pertaining to MNS seeds and plants; no grows and no discussion as pertains to the purpose of this website. Besides a couple of snipes at Shanti, what are you doing here? How about we see some of YOUR grows for a change? I would even welcome some comparison grows with the stuff you keep inferring. This ocimene rag you keep going off on does nothing to add to knowledge and understanding of MNS genetics and their benefits.
And while it is understood that members have every right to buy from whomever, it is rather distasteful to continually reference outside companies without adding to the MNS experience. Some would say that is trolling. I would say if the shoe fits.

mu
 
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