The True Origins of Haze

[bigherb]

On the Topic of the Santa Cruz haze conataining thai genetics


These are post from some members of the community .Some who have smoked the original ,some who have grown it .Some who are just experienced a quite knowledgable

As a kid we grew and smoked the following landrace varieties from seed: Jamaican - Malawi - Kenyan -Colombian - Mexican - Thai - and Indian Several of which share origin with Haze

Neville's Haze is a manageable version of Thai,, that's all IMO...
...so is SuperSilverHaze,, and we'd sooner be smoking that

Peace flowers
dLeaf

Also, check out this zamalito quote:
My theory is that the haze has some amazing Sri Lankan genetics mentioned by BOEL leadership that they acquired on one of their many surfing trips there. Some members of BOEL have stated that while on one of their surfing trips to the island they discovered a small cannabis growing community that produced the finest herb any of them had seen which is saying a lot. It seems likely that seeds or herb would've been brought back. I actually have doubts that there's any thai in the haze at all and there may not even be any Keralian. Sri Lanka is located in the Indian ocean between south India and Thailand and central to ancient trade routes from India, Thailand and southern Africa. I've never heard that the holyweed was bred from BOEL imports but they were running large cannabis production facilities at Big Sur during the era this strain came from

Bluebeard

Both according to the dates that thai weed was starting to become imported, and Sam. Thai genes were a much later addition to the haze, and only added to the genepool in the last year or two the haze bros were in production, and of course in strains like sssc's burning bush. I don't personally see it in the hazes I have grown, but I obviously have a different experience than hempy. Although you cannot see any resemblance in the modern versions and more than a few will think I'm nuts for saying this but, there are some uniquely thai traits that popped up in the older northern lights samples. This might have been the source of the thai-like genes in the haze hybrids Hempy has grown, especially when some recessive recombinance starts to take hold in an Nl x Haze cross. Mant people describe the early haze plants as being colombian phenos and the longer flowering as thai phenos. However, the colombians being worked with in California at the time were every bit as long flowering as a thai and perhaps even longer than the thais they were working with. The introduction of faster flowering lines in Colombia happened a in the mid-late 70's after the haze bros ceased working with the haze. Pure Colombians are fully acclimated to the equator and are definitely among the longest flowering Sativas. There's also definitely the presence of some type of South Indian and/or Sri Lankan/Bangladeshi genes. The faster flowering phenos are possibly contributed to in part by a central Mexican or Michoacan and maybe some type of central Asian sativa such as a Nepalese, Chitrali or Kashmiri. All of these regions were sources of genes and on the hippy trail for californians at the time, but in the long run, unless you were there, anyone's guess is as good as mine.

Most recent Mtn Nectar post below,a man with first hand experience both growing an smoking haze from the Cruz

thinkin' the "crew" is the answer base for such a question.....as this has been beat up every way possible and folks still want to hurl chips......

from my personal experience with tending the Haze many yr's ago I would gather no thai genes involved.................




ganj on........

These post compiled with many many others some ive quoted in this thread have given me my opinion


1luvbigherb

 

[Hemphrey Bogart]

I gotta agree with sensi here. While it's important to know the lineage of whatever you're working with, we are probably never going to know the full truth about what went on and who did what.

This I know:

1. Sams sold Nev some seed back in the 80s.

2. Nev grew those seed out and used his superior breeding skills to isolate, and then work with, the best of what he could get to sprout.

3. Nev made hybrids that changed the game with those seeds and his hard work and knowledge. He is the true King of Cannabis, period. End of story.

I think I'll just concentrate on growing what I have and we'll see where it leads.

Speaking of that. I have included some shots here.

This first shot is a plant from a California sativa seed circa 1990. I don't know the makeup on this, but it's got that old school incense/sandalwood spice smell and it's sativa all the way. I got one seed to pop out of 30 and I still have more seed to go through. I call this plant "Loma Prieta Sativa." Here she is at 13 weeks of flower:

Next is Neville's haze. My best pheno out of 12 that I grew out. Week 13 on this one as well:

Here's a side by side, Loma on your left, Nev's on your right:

The smells are different on both plants. The Nev's smells sorta fruity/hazey with some spice thrown in. The Loma smells more incense/earthy/sandalwood. Both have that hazey sorta tone to them, but they're obviously not the same plant.

Anyway, I think the old seed plant is most likely an vintage sativa line from California, but I'm not 100% sure of the lineage. I wasn't smoking a whole lot of mexican dirt weed (as we used to call it) back in the late 80's, early 90's, so I'll have to wait until the Loma is done and give it a test drive to see what I got. I'm just happy I got one of the old seeds to sprout.

HB.

 

[bigherb]

Sensimilla13


I dont take it the wrong way i Understand,im upset you dont know me for who i am .

Im always honest an ,what surprises me is you make that comment without even trying to help an giving any positive input .I admitted awhile back i wasnt sure of the exact meaning of backcross in my other haze thread at IC when bushy questioned the story i told which i just repeated . Turns out it
was well suiting an the term made perfect sense


Not that it matters you care or i have to say it but in short ,Breeding is not much interest to me .I have never admitted to being an expert of any kind an i dont appreciate you making up that lie as others have insisted this aswell .Soo yes there is much i dont know,which is why im here an not afraid to ask questions .But i dont look much into things that dont interest me


After Coop posted that i googled polyhybrid an this came up

The offspring of parents differing from each other in more than three characters

Im not clear on what that means which is why i asked if he could break it down in simple terms .What i take it is The result of 2 parents resulting 3 expressions or more .Soo does that mean the 2 parents can be of the same genetics .



If you dont get pleasure in this convo any longer why join in especially with the mentality you post with

what i do whole heartily appreciate is you an many other still have an opinion which differs from sooo much supporting evidence which coincides with the opinion i have .But than i hav to LOL aswell ,when you use words like i tell you exactly an repeat contradicting info like its gospel all after your gospel comes from the man (Sams ) who you supposedily dont believe to be honest but believe his story an my story was recognized as truth by the man

Honestily your feeling an opinions are abit confusing an it seems you play both sides of the fence

Be real bro ,what did i call the man a liar about do you recall .Well is what just me comparing contradicting info he posted he made public .I have also stated i believe he speaks from the heart an has an amazing recollection considering his long history

You say I consider Sams an honest individual but you believe his insisting an not definitive post that the haze was hybridized each season Yes ? Obviously because this is who gave the impression of that story unless you have been incontact with G aswell .Soo it seems you take Sams to be honest ,i dont believe that version of events an have stated that repeatedily

I have called out both Sams an nevil on their contradictions .I dont recall using the words honest when speaking of Sams .Only Reminding Folk that he said my article was mostly True facts ,thats what i seem to believe a few of you refer to as my believing Sams or being a fan references come from

Ive only spoke the truth wether it be my opinion or quoted post ,i dont get why some folk get soo offense at the truth ,it seems more soo when nevil is mentioned (thats a hempy move) .I spoke directly to Nevil via pm he knows my feelings

I speak from my heart an i encorage you all to do the same but Dont twist my words or image , its disrespectful


I see It only takes one post to see how someone feels about you


1luvbigherb

 

[bigherb]

Oh yeah, a polyhybrid is, for example...

AxB= AB
CxD= CD

ABxCD= ABCD
FOR EXAMPLE: NL5/HazeC x Skunk/HazeA ==== Mango Haze

Poly (many) hybrid

Sensi

That was simple an appreciated ,I cant forget that

This post in your prior might have let me a different impression

well multihybrid can we say / a plant with many different Genetics

I understand many of you believe soo .But my feeling is the hybrid (aka Sams Original haze aka lumbo/ mex /thai /S.indian) came somtime from 76 - 81 when Sams started his work or as he said attempt at saving the line .He admitted the Thai an S.indian wasnt added till later at the end of production His exacts words .Soo it boggles me how you see things differently

It not possible for 69 haze stock to contain thai genes if it was added at the end of production ,its that simple


1luvbigherb

 

[bigherb]

HB

Damn brother that lomo prieta is dead on for some oldschool uptown .Im curious where the name comes from

Those pics are bautiful an the plants are very similar the side by side from where i sit looks damn near identical .

Im very happy that you had sucess with those old seeds ,Best wishes with the rest of the grow an i look forward to any updates



1luvbigherb

 

[Hemphrey Bogart]

Big, was sams's work from 1976 on based on the old original haze seed or the newer one or both? In other words, when he says he was saving the line, did that mean he was just working with the older stock or was it the "newer" stock with thai in it or was he working with both the old and the new? I'm confused, obviously.

HB.

 

[Hemphrey Bogart]

HB

Damn brother that lomo prieta is dead on for some oldschool uptown .Im curious where the name comes from

1luvbigherb

The name? I made it up, of course! LOL. This is some Cali sativa and the Loma Prieta fault line here in California has a rather infamous reputation, especially when considering the date range during which I was growing the plant the seeds came from. I figured it's a good name.

Thanks for the compliments, Big.

HB.

 

[zigzag]

I don't believe your timeline. I think seed from 69 is much more plausible. In 1979 some people moved east from cali and brought seed that was inbred for 11 generations. They were outdoor growers. You do the math. They wouldn't finish where we lived but were big xmas trees that needed greenhouses. The finished product they brought with them was sold as Hawaiian. It was 5 bucks for a joint when you could buy an ounce of columbo for 35.

The hazes were grown in the 60's and nevil paid a high price for those seeds and I think thats what most everyone thinks except for you. But the point sensi and alot of people have been trying to make is everybody has there own opinion and its not just a dead horse...its glue now.

 

[bigherb]

Big, was sams's work from 1976 on based on the old original haze seed or the newer one or both? In other words, when he says he was saving the line, did that mean he was just working with the older stock or was it the "newer" stock with thai in it or was he working with both the old and the new? I'm confused, obviously.

HB.

I cant tell you brother ,Only Sams can say for sure .But he is unwilling at the moment .

I believe that he had made his own crosses using Santa Cruz haze starting in 76 obviously if he released 13 haze / haze hybrids known as the first seed catalog from sacred seeds aka cultivators choice in 81 he had to be busy at work a few years prior .

But his stating saving the line is just that an makes it clear he post truth when he wishes but puts his own twist on things .Saving the line was his attempt at preserving haze cause after 10 years an no breeding she stopped producing .Soo its obvious he added the thai to save the line an possibly tried a few others strains such as S.indian in his attempt

The information he gives is abit confusing an contradicting all i have done is give my opinion an what seems most probable .i would just be repeating myself as you have been following my post your familiar with the points i make an post ive quoted .

Points ive tried to explain


Once again this is my opinion above

Haze production ended in 81 from G

Sams released 13 haze an haze hybrids in 81 coincedince

G an R.L had a fallout in 76

Sam uses the reference of his haze gentics from 76 sevral times in my haze thread at IC


sams admitts

All of the S Indian and Thai crosses were toward the end of Haze production. Not only males were used for crosses. The 3 year timeline was just someones dream , Haze was grown for over 10years by the haze bros , Sacred seeds tried to stabilize Haze with mixed results

1luvbigherb

 

[BucketBong]

Just like to thank everyone on this thread for keeping it basically civil , if a bit passionate ( which is a good thing ) .All I know is really the good haze crosses must be shit hot pot to inspire the levels of this sort of passion among its devotees. The few haze crosses Ive tried were ALL real good so I can only imagine what an elite 5 Hz or Nevs Hz smokes like . Cheers Everyone.

 

[Hemphrey Bogart]

Found another closer shot of Loma for you guys to check out. I wish I could take better pictures, sorry for the low quality pics:

HB.

 

[TomHill]

The term polyhybrid is often misused. It has to do with different traits being tracked by the observer as apposed to the number of parental inputs. For example, if we are observing several differing traits of an F2 generation with only two parental (P1,P2) lines, it is said to be polyhybrid. Likewise, we could have a double-cross hybrid (a four way) that is not polyhybrid because multiple traits we happen to be observing do not differ. The bottom line is that the term polyhybrid may, or may not have anything to do with the pedigree of said plant.

Bigherb, can't have a backcross without an outcross, maybe requestion your source? I'd bet that the Haze name didn't come into being before the first outcross (F1) W/Mexico and that this produced a shitload of seed that they used/hoarded for years - maybe what Nevil picked up from Sam. That this was likely one of the details that Sam didn't bother straightening out. And pretty ballsy for you to be seemingly saying that Haze with the Thai is not Haze, as many feel it was the best of all.

I never liked the term acid pheno, I doubt it came from me.

PS: SteamerLane locals cringe everytime you call their beloved town "the cruz", hehe. -T

 

[Hemphrey Bogart]

I never liked the term acid pheno, I doubt it came from me.

PS: SteamerLane locals cringe everytime you call their beloved town "the cruz", hehe. -T

It's Tom Hill in the flesh! Let me take this opportunity to thank you for making the back of my house smell so good this last week, Tom.

I'm drying some of your haze and there is one plant that just reeks like crazy, so thank you.

I surf "the lane" from time to time (was there a week or so ago and it was about 7'-10' and CROWDED, but so fun when you could get a wave, lol) and I gotta agree with Tom here with the whole "the cruz" thing.

I would never say "the cruz" myself. Don't know if I ever have, actually. LOL. That's like calling San Francisco "Frisco"...well, to some locals at least.

HB.

 

[bigherb]

TomHill


I appreciate your input ,Im thankful for the way you broke that down

Soo my last question pertaining to polyhybrid is can a one strain such as a backcrossed lumbo be a polyhybrid ?

I do wish things would not have went where there did but ,Its nice to see you checkin in on the incense lovers thread


You already know im ballsy ,from the few convos we had

From what i gather Sams is a friend of yours ,maybe you could get it out of him .If you believe his verison of events did you miss this last quote from Sams in my previous post

All of the S Indian and Thai crosses were toward the end of Haze production. Not only males were used for crosses. The 3 year timeline was just someones dream , Haze was grown for over 10years by the haze bros , Sacred seeds tried to stabilize Haze with mixed results

Now im not sure if you Read the article or have followed any of the discussion or what your opinion maybe .BUt Sams agreed for the most part

As ive just recentl stated an previously im not very knowledgable about terminologies of cannabis .but this was explined to me by Chimera in my thread at IC .It makes sense to em an if its true would make the term revelant

Backcrossing means crossing back to a previous generation; in cannabis breeding this has mainly been used to cross to a single, often recurrent, parent. However, it certainly doesn't preclude backcrossing offspring to the siblings of the plants used in the parental generation.

Hope that helps,
-Chimera

Its kinda funny i didnt imagine having this convo with you ever


There are many things Sams hasnt straightened out ,Soo these are all opinions assumptions an educated guesses

As everyone else you are entitled to your opinion ,But if your familair with the information which i dont get teh impression you are many things are not right
an are links to the story ive passed on

Sams claimed R created haze in an old post ,but here in response to my article he speaks of only G with the first Crops .On tha topic we spoke in pm an i wont repeat it but i will say this as ive said before all my information has helped form my opinion

I was in all the greenhouses that G and R.L. used to grow, they were not big or fancy. G's first crop was outdoors in the Santa Cruz mountains, they used greenhouses as soon as they could. In the beginning both lived separately just a block or two from my place, I was a close friend of both

It implies R.L wasnt around in 69 ,soo how did he create Ohaze ?

My thought ive expressed throughly is it impossible for 69 stock to contain Thai an it would have come as Sams said in the last years ,By his doing .

Now on to this if you havnt caught it you may be curious to it as it might refer to your line ,Sams edited his post later you can check in my origins at IC thread page 3 .i quoted his originla post on page 4

As far as I know I am the only one with un-hybridized Haze. Only used for breeding it is amazing what happens when you use it to make Haze/Whatever hybrids, amazing.

-SamS

1luvbigherb

 

[jack hairy]

bigherb,

a quick question that you never really covered, in the backcross.
if clones werent used back then, how did they go about backcrossing it. assuming it wasnt outcrossed to something else first. or even if it was.
they would have had to start seeds that they used to grow the first crop(that wasnt "haze" yet, along with the seeds that they made the first year(what was the father, columbian making it an F2?, or outcrossed to something) and pollinate what, at best, would be a sibling of the original mother.

or was it simply an F2 columbian that was considered the first haze?

there must have been a 68 crop, or haze wasnt created till 70, because the backcross would take a year at least.

 

[TomHill]

Yes Bigherb, a backcross of Colombia could be polyhybrid depending on who's observing which traits. But it needs to be a hybrid first for it to be either a backcross or polyhybrid, not pure Colombian as you were postulating.

I do hear and have read Sams quotes, but they likely have come across differently for me than they have for you. It's very likely that the world had no clue about Haze before the latter stages of commercial production, and if commercial production included Thai and S.India, then you should be giving the line and the folk involved the respect it and they deserve, instead of this BS about the real cruz haze etc. It's incredibly disrespectful imo.

I read Chimera's post and I assure you that he understands that backcross means to cross a HYBRID back to a previous generation. No hybrid/outcross? Then no backcross.

The Haze was created over a decade+ long timeline, I do not see the percentage in you taking it back to the very first year/s when comparatively nobody even had the chance to smoke it or ever will, only speculate about it all, uphill rocks about some dinosaur few have ever known.

These posts speaking volumes to you, these ones you wanna make a big deal out of? They have multiple and simple explanations in my eyes. IMO you do a lot of misreading amigo then blow it up into gross proportions. When folks see how bizarrely far others will run with the football they are usually feeling fairly wise to clam the hell up, and then others will no doubt take that to mean something other than it does too.

I don't know man, maybe be careful not to fully dis everybody involved, and if you do, don't sit around wondering why your interviewy has left the building...

PS thanks Bogie hope she knocks yer socks off. -T

 

[bushweed]

Anyway, I think the old seed plant is most likely an vintage sativa line from California, but I'm not 100% sure of the lineage. I wasn't smoking a whole lot of mexican dirt weed (as we used to call it) back in the late 80's, early 90's, so I'll have to wait until the Loma is done and give it a test drive to see what I got..

Hemphrey your plant lreminds me of a 50% Oaxacan I grew last year...

Very relaxing happy herb this.

So as to not digress too much from topic, just like to say that Nev's Hz has both sweet citrus phenos as well as earthy incense ones too.

 

[bigherb]

bigherb,

a quick question that you never really covered, in the backcross.
if clones werent used back then, how did they go about backcrossing it. assuming it wasnt outcrossed to something else first. or even if it was.
they would have had to start seeds that they used to grow the first crop(that wasnt "haze" yet, along with the seeds that they made the first year(what was the father, columbian making it an F2?, or outcrossed to something) and pollinate what, at best, would be a sibling of the original mother.

or was it simply an F2 columbian that was considered the first haze?

there must have been a 68 crop, or haze wasnt created till 70, because the backcross would take a year at least.

From my understanding of what i was told the punto Rojo seed was crossed to itself in 69 .Soo as you said a i stated in the article During the next year the seeds produced the four varieties meaing 1970 which is just another reason i doubt the authenticity of 69 stock


As mentiond before ,the date is not that important .In my opinion is has a major significance an plays a big role .But in the last day or soo expressing or stressing my opinion has in some eyes made me out to be somthing i dont wish to reflect .I dont take back anything ive said an stand by my findings an opinion

You know its hard to say how you feel when you cant exactly admitt all you know .While some feel ive discredited or given to much credit ,I am still a man of respect who will keep private convo an information to myself .Ive excersised all outlets for information an have confirmation of the same findings from several sources


1luvbigherb

 

[bigherb]

TomHill

Im not here to argue about anything ,when my character is attacked as it has been several times just recently than its upsetting .

But it needs to be a hybrid first for it to be either a backcross or polyhybrid

You are the expert here ,If i understand chimera correct (below) its quite the opposite of what you insist .But im not arguing that ive just repeated what i was told ,an im telling you the haze was Pure punto Rojo bagseed crossed to itself .Soo if you'd like to give the proper terminology for that maybe it will make things clearer

However, it certainly doesn't preclude backcrossing offspring to the siblings of the plants used in the parental generation.Hope that helps,
-Chimera

I just told someones story

I do hear and have read Sams quotes, but they likely have come across differently for me than they have for

Well im not sure what you see different as you havnt mentioned anything particular ,But i feel ive throughly expressed my reason (with excessive info/quotes of post )for my opinion an thats all it is a difference of opinions

It's very likely that the world had no clue about Haze before the latter stages of commercial production, and if commercial production included Thai and S.India then you should be giving the line and the folk involved the respect it and they deserve, instead of this BS about the real cruz haze etc

IN my opinion you an others have a blind eye ,This is your opinion as youve stated you never smoked S.Cruz haze an wasnt around for it soo what do you know .Commerical production started in 71 .I was told upward of a hundred plus pounds were grown each year an Sams staed below

I saw a lot, all of each seasons grows, and had my choice if I wanted it, but I did not sell herb, I did have a few friends that only sold Original Haze from the two Haze growers and they did move a lot, a real lot, Lb's or more every week, if it was available

Im not sure you idea of commerical in the 70's ,but it seems as ive staed your not very familiar with the available info .


It doesnt matter when it did really an if you havnt read my praise about Sams hand in paving part of the road for where the community is today you should look at the article again .

Im not here to kiss ass any ass legend or master grower ,Where im from your only a number .Igive Respect where its due an have done soo

Do you not know how to Read ,Thai an S.indian were added at the End of haze production by Sams account /post .

Sams stated he gave thai an S.indian to the bros to use an they did , i dont believe that but i do believe he tried to save the line as he mentions sevral times an here again

I helped save the Original Haze from extinction, with the blessing of R.L. and the other Haze Brother, the 2 Original Haze growers.

Now you tell me how is it possible ,the haze died out/was stopped being grown by G in 81

But Sams was given permission to use an reproduce originla haze in the 70's (stated below) While G was still growing haze ,it dont sound right .Especially considering i was told G never gave Sams seeds period .Sams had 13 haze/hybrids in the 81 release

Remember, I was given permission to use and reproduce the genes and the name the Original Haze back in the 70's. Not that most people care, but I did

The Haze was created over a decade+ long timeline, I do not see the percentage in you taking it back to the very first year/s when comparatively nobody even had the chance to smoke it or ever will, only speculate about it all, uphill rocks about some dinosaur few have ever known

Tom all i wanted to do was find out the truth ,an than i felt i had to share it with the world .Im no journalist my education is poor ,this will most likely eb teh last article you ever see from me .

Haze is my all time favorite smoke ,i wasnt around for its beginning an wanted to know all i could.Now i have in my mind accomplished what it was i was searching for i understand this convo can be everlasting an mostly likely not positive

Again im not sure if have followed these members post

Since my time on the net an especially after Sams gave a very brief description of the haze ive asked everyone/anyone who might have had the pleasure on my canna sites if they smoked 70's haze .There are now four memebers of the community who have given descriptions an one or two more who admitt smoking it .Happyhi best description to date ,Hooteroll aka one of the 3 bros ,Sams an recently Mnt Nectar


Mnt Nectar
who grew an smoked purple haze also claims he doesnt believe haze contained any thai genes .He also stated he gave sams his purple Mnt nectar seeds which was the isolated purple haze pheno .Raco an others are familair with him an old pics from one of the old canna sites im not sure if you are

Its funny caz i feel the same way that amny of you have read things the wrong way


Your opinion was made of me long ago sadly its not representative of who iam .I thought my intentions were clear a deep passion for one of my few pleasures in life /i never inteneded to diss anyone .But i dont feel the need to bite my tounge or sugar coat anything ,Ive stated my opinion an you yours



1luvbigherb

 

[jack hairy]

bigherb,

what i am confused on,
is that crossing punto rojo to itself might not be backcrossing,
it might be making a new fillial generation(f2)

for backcrossing to take place, 2 seperate generations need to come together, if not with the original parent, then at least with a sibling.