The True Origins of Haze

[cannabisspfecund]

hey bigherb im not here to fight just to ask a question.

i found a quote buy sam the skunkman basically saying this,

"im not sure what nevils taking about.. does he mean seeds from the 60's, grown in the 80's? i dont know but the idea that a haze clone is still alive from the 60's is absurd" it was a little while ago and i cant find it again but that was basically it. i thought this told the story.

i actually thought it was posted in your original thread but i could never find it last time i tried to talk to you. i guess the post is needed but i knew strait away sam himself was admitting to the earlier haze being around.

like i said im not here to argue but in my mind sam has the last of the haze (and as i said in my opinion) mixed with a bit of thai n that n then put together as what sam calls haze. at the same time nevil used stock from earlier generations of the haze line, picking the best only n creating what he has today. if you ask me they both have the same ancestors, nevils selections being more raw.

this certainly dosent throw your story in the bin, just myself and a few others perceived your original post on here to basically indicated that the mns hazes are not really hazes.

im up for discussion on the subject but the arguing is over in my mind. i just hope its not a case of this is my story and im sticking with it.

cheers

 

[bigherb]

cannabisspfecund

Fighting is not what im here for Nor should anyone else

The haze topic is close to my heart an these discussion are somthing i enjoy .

Opinions are like assholes we all have one an were all here to share but we should do soo respectfully as you have


From what i gather of your post you still have abit of research to do id suggest goin to the grail ultimate haze thread an question for nevil where he explains in detail everything about his haze experience an backround i asked many question which made interesting revelations hence further brightening my opinion which is basically wht Sams an Nevil have said in other words

at the same time nevil used stock from earlier generations of the haze line

This quote above from you is why i say it seems your uninformed ,Nevil admitts getting his stock from Sams .Soo ther is no debate an the idea of an earlier haze IMHO should never be used again as I know for a fact it wasnt the words of Nevil .


Now to prove my point/opinion here are some quotes from both Sams an Nevil which proves as a fact that Nevilles haze aswell as todays current offerings are not the Santa Cruz haze aka Punto rojo pure colombian

post from Sam that is from CW
"All of the S Indian and Thai crosses were toward the end of Haze production. Not only males were used for crosses. The 3 year timeline was just someones dream , Haze was grown for over 10years by the haze bros , Sacred seeds tried to stabilize Haze with mixed results.The quality dropped considerably.The problem is that the best Hazes were F1s Hybrids , and Haze stabilization can not be done without a loss of vigor

.

Originally Posted by Sam_Skunkman / Overgrow
Burning Bush was a pure Original Haze, on the Thai side with very thin buds that looked like shit, except they were covered in resin, an Oz would make a ziplock all sticky as hell inside. It was very very strong. Also hard to roll a jay because it was so sticky and did not burn so great, even though dryed and cured perfect. Just to much resin.

I have not worked Original Haze as much as tried to save it, I collected as much seed as I could in the early 70's grew them and did free pollinations and did minimal selection to ensure I saved as many genes as I could. That was in the 70's & 80's now I have clones for the last 20 years. My O Haze is not done being worked on that is why I tell people to use it as breeding materials
SamS

Nevil quotes below

As I said before, I got a total of 7 plants from the original seed stock. They were all different. The Original female (the one that I didn't keep a clone of) and Haze male A, may have been siblings, but just as likely not. Yet there was a common Haze like thread among all of them. This tells me that there was likely no pure haze among them.

After the first batch of '69 Haze seeds only produced 1 plant, I decided to plant the rest. This produced 5 plants A,B,C,D and E.
Plants B,D and E were females, of which B was the best. I tried all possible combinations and the best was B x C. BC was actually grown commercially alongside 5HzC1, so it was a 10/11 week plant. This fact alone indicated that HzB was a Haze Hybrid to something early. I suspect that most of BC's quality came from Dad.
I planted the rest of the old seeds. One came out. O for Omega. It was a 1970 seed. I suspected that it was only 25% Haze with one parent being Indica

Well Bigherb, I wouldn't swear on a kilo of Haze Hash, that he told me that he grew them himself.
I seem to remember one batch had a number of years mixed together something like '66,'67,'68. A prominent ancestor was a thing called "Burning Bush". If Sam didn't grow burning bush then the person that did will be able to tell us more.Everything useful was from before 1970. The one plant that came up from '70 batch, Omega, was at best 25% haze and didn't make the grade.
N

The first Cannabis cup was at my house so this knowitall doesn't know much. For sure.
I've already passed on what I know about the Haze. Burning Bush was a plant that Sam mentioned. This quote would indicate that he is not the breeder of the '69 seeds.

Originally Posted by Sam_Skunkman / Icmag
The first homegrown I smoked was 1968 from Laguna Beach grown by one of the Brotherhood Of Eternal Love, it was Mexican and not yet done, but still more potent then seeded imports

I didn't say the bag was labeled burning bush. Sam said something about burning bush being an ancestor of the Haze. If Sam is Knowsitall4sure then he didn't smoke Haze til '71.
If that's true, what would he know about seeds made by somebody else 2 years before he had even smoked the variety?
N

There is not much more i could add but i have had private convos with Sams which add to my conclusions .The above quotes IMO clearly point out what i have been saying all along .The oldest haze line phrase goes out the window .The Haze stock Nevil recieved came from Sams soo whatever Nevil had Sams has .Now ad to that Nevil admitts he thought the stock wasnt pure an was hybrids made by Sams in his own words he says that .The cherry on top is the mention of Burning bush what the **** does burning bush from 81 have to do with haze stock from Santa Cruz . Soo with Nevil not knowing much of the info available such Sams first smoking Ohaze an the lineage of BUrning BUsh it was pure honesty that revealed the Obvious .

To sum up my thoughts on the avavilble haze lines such as MNS stock it was Sams work which is why we see the thai influence ,Soo any haze with Thai is not the Cruz haze of the 70's. MNS is the home of the haze away from washinton heights an i will continue to explore Nevils haze till i find my special lady or the Grail is released


This is my opinion you are all entitles to your own but it is what it is .I didnt make anything up .I just repeated the info such as quotes above an pieced it together = made sense of it .The True origins is also just a story i was gifted which i felt needed to be shred with teh world

Im content an Glad i could give some contribution to the community ,I know some think im crazy or a lair but i have several sources which has concluded my revelations .


1luvbigherb

 

[biteme]

and there you go, this is how bigherb went from a to z in seeking the history of haze. and that is what i would like to see, put your version of events up with as much evidence as possible to bolster your argument and let us see what fits where?

i don't think i am asking too much as the site seems to be on calm waters of late? and is it really asking too much that folks cannot post up their thoughts on things without being called names or otherwise insulted? i think not! imho it is bad enough that too many principals in this haze tale run the gamut from being mindless stoners to outright liars and we have these traits to sort out on top of deciding which version of events sounds most likely? we need to stop picking on each other!

and btw, bigherb already knows i buy into a different version of events. this web has been spun by liars and thieves. but one common element among us is that i also love haze. peace-biteme

 

[jack hairy]

so whats your opinion on the events bite me?

im kinda thinking that sam lied to nevil, (or nevil was mistaken by the "original haze"), sam sold nevil hybrids that sam made with the plants he grew himself, from the seeds he saved/was given from the late 60s/early 70's, and sold them as pure haze or "original haze".
sam obviously did not create haze.
he smoked it before he had much if anything to do with the haze brothers.
sam created "original haze" i would guess
that is his haze/ thai and maybe south indian hybrid.

is this possible?

 

[coop]

it doesn't really make a difference what was what 30 years ago.

Most likely he had some sort of inbred stock to use for further seed stock.

You have what's on the market today, and even if pure haze was around it would be different then 80s haze today.

I really wonder if all this was started from self seed in the supposed catalog. Marijuana botany talks about using giberilian i think for sex reversel and other forms of selfing seed, so I would tend to believe at some point there was an s1 of a haze being sold, did Nev work with some of that who knows.

 

[biteme]

at one time bigherb asked me not to bring up this info but i think it may be appropriate now? first off, i am not the one who knows what really happened back when, but all i got to say is at the center of this haze mystery is an enigma going by the name of sams.

there is nothing new in what i say. my first whiff of his stench happened back in the days of the og forums when he explained the movement of genetics from cali to europe after the bust. it was a period in my life where i knew little about growing but considered myself to be as close to an expert on federal drug law and its application by the various agencies as one is apt to find outside of a law office. and here is sams online rattling off this movement of seeds with the permission of the feds. THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN IN THE REAL WORLD unless you are one of them.

you do not have to investigate too long or too deep for fairly recent news on how these powers have grown. in fact, did not marco renda rattle on about this special designation held by sams? the dea grants him permission to import 10 lbs. at a time or some such shit? and i thought there was a thread right here at mns? and so i need to ask; do any of you know anyone that the dea coddles and yet that person is not a rat and a liar? i need to find that marco renda thread.

ok, now that i am all wound up about sams, let me explain the real problem when it comes to haze; what we have from sams could very well be some bs that was spoon fed to him by a junior dea agent? lol. it's a mystery and a conspiracy all wrapped into one hell of a story. there is a lot that could be learned if those old og forums would surface that are supposed to be in some scottish archives? but there is plenty of other info. but i am too old and too slow to chase this story, and maybe too scared as well? things are not as they seem. peace-biteme

 

[bigherb]

jack hairy

I know this was for biteme an id love to hear his opinion ,i appreciate good haze convo with Good folk such as you both .Soo i had to add my 2 cents


I agree with your post in its entire ,there is one thing i do not agree with which is your post below has been made obious by Sams .He did not smoke Ohaze before knowing the Bros but if you refer to his contributions than i concur

he smoked it before he had much if anything to do with the haze brothers

This is evident by Sams post below

Originally Posted by Knowsitall4sure / Cannabis World
When did you first see and smoke the Haze?
1971 for me

He definetly did not smoke Ohaze before meeting or havin anything to do with the bros ,He admitts in other words below an above as he states he smoked an seen haze in 71 an G's first grow was in the mountains which he obviously had no part of .

Originally Posted by Sam_Skunkman
I read this and have to say it is mostly correct, a few minor points are off. I do not want to nit-pick.
In the past I have read so much crap about the Haze it was nice to see the mostly true facts for a change.
I was in all the greenhouses that G and R.L. used to grow, they were not big or fancy. G's first crop was outdoors in the Santa Cruz mountains, they used greenhouses as soon as they could. In the beginning both lived separately just a block or two from my place, I was a close friend of both.
Remember, I was given permission to use and reproduce the genes and the name the Original Haze back in the 70's. Not that most people care, but I did.
As far as I know I am the only one with un-hybridized Haze. Only used for breeding it is amazing what happens when you use it to make Haze/Whatever hybrids, amazing.

-SamS

In sayin if anything to do with the haze ,I agree he never said he did create the Ohaze he said he gave the bros Thai an S.indian

If you mean his contribution to the haze ,Well his role was always the same an never changed he tried to save the line an brought it to holland .For that im most thankful an i know my fellow haze lovers an the rest of the community aswell .


Once again this is my opinion based upon info i have an info which has been posted


1luvbigherb

 

[bigherb]

coop

I feel in order to know where you going you should know where you came from .Nowadays many smokers only care about the hype of today but are uneducated about the history that has been part of many cultures for centuries .This sacred herb is just that sacred ,The haze is my Grail .


We all have our own liking an i was knocked an still am about my rant aka expressnig my passion for Frankies .But all i am an was sayin is this is the best smoke i experienced an was eager /curious to know all i could about her traits .

How funny is it or can we say what conincedince is it that the 3 brothers who brokered much of the Haze from santa Cruz came from Nj an very likely had many NYC connects .What a conicedince is it that the incense trait is reported from the Very few posters active in our community who have first hand experience with Ohaze from the Cruz .What is the coincedince since i came to the net many others have shared a similar experience of this haze from NYC being unlike any other herb they have smoked

I might have rambled on abit but i think i made my point ,We all share a love for the herb an we should all seek our hearts desire an share our experiences to our best ability .But the younger generation needs to know the history knowledge is power


We could make a hundred possibilites for what might have been but from the information posted from the sources closest to the haze .I think everything has been layed out


1luvbigherb

 

[jack hairy]

im not sure if you are misunderstanding me or if i am misunderstanding you.

Quote:
he smoked it before he had much if anything to do with the haze brothers

I agree with your post in its entire ,there is one thing i do not agree with which is your post below has been made obious by Sams .He did not smoke Ohaze before knowing the Bros but if you refer to his contributions than i concur

what i was saying is that sam smoked haze from the bros first.
then he may have had something to do with their operation, and then he ended up with genetics that he may have done something to before selling them to nevil.

they already had haze...
sam created "ohaze" or "original haze" in his attempts to save haze?

so it seems all there is to figure out is what did nevil get.
haze
or "original haze"

 

[bigherb]

biteme


To make clear what i didnt wish to bring up is Sams involvement with the Goverment / DEA .I still dont think its appropriate because it adds nothin to the origin of Haze .I only wish to discuss what really interest me an i have made my conclusions about the subject there is much evidence available for us all to form our opinion on this matter an this is an old topic which i dont like to touch on .

Ive asked all an any who were around from the OG days to provide any old link they might have .Kash had provided quite afew which before he posted i didnt know of an those 7 or soo quotes shed much light .

In my opinion i dont think there is much more to come from those old post .I think it wpould make things more clear if anything but as for new revelations i doubt it .Id love to see anything soo please any who may have old post your invited to share



1luvbigherb

 

[bigherb]

jack hairy

what i was saying is that sam smoked haze from the bros first.
then he may have had something to do with their operation, and then he ended up with genetics that he may have done something to before selling them to nevil.

they already had haze...
sam created "ohaze" or "original haze" in his attempts to save haze?

so it seems all there is to figure out is what did nevil get.
haze
or "original haze"

[/QUOTE]

Exactly

NOW Where on the same page brother

The confusion was my fault in rambling i complicated things i undertsood you but wanted to be clear on your thought


1luvbigherb

 

[jack hairy]

the answer to my question has probably been answered by sam already when he said
"60's seeds not grown till the 80's? i dont know but the only haze seeds sold prior to 85 were mine that i made after '76 " or something like that.

you know the quote, i couldnt find it, but didnt look to hard either

is this sam saying that he in fact sold nevil "his" seeds instead of "haze" seeds?

it sucks that sam seems like such a douche, but we all do owe him a big thanks for tranferring seeds to nevil or selling him seeds he made with the real haze.

either way, what we end up with are two possibilities.
1. nevil got the seeds he thought he was paying for.
in which case, NH is probably the best source for the genetics unless you happen to know an old grower that might have the real haze.

2. nevil got seeds sam made.
in which case we have one of the best breeders, working what was left of haze, and hope he pulled enough genetics out of those few seeds and the outcross to nl5 to give us a shot at a plant that is equal to the haze bros haze.

im more likely to believe #1 because it seems both of those males nevil used were higher quality than the average of the plants you might get from sams haze.(i have no exp with it). i just assume because otherwise all the haze sam has sold over the years would be siblings to nevils males, and there would be much more competition and higher quality from other sources. someone would have gotten a better male than nevils 2 of 7. am i right?
plus nevil seems to beleive he got what he paid for and not sams seeds.

 

[sativaXindica]

Greetings biteme, bigherb, jackhairy, coop, MNS Family,

Jack brought up a good point. If Nevil did get some of sams seeds that he made then, like jack said, I'm sure many others would have found a similar or better male then Nevil found?

I guess it depends on what you think about the character of sams. So this is when sams life comes into play and even though some things like working with the Feds might not add to the haze story, they do shed light on the type of guy that sams was. Would he try to pull a fast one on Nevil when big money was involved? Maybe. Again, maybe not. Who knows, while he was trying to "save" the line he may have went through all the original seeds only to be left with the seeds he made.

I understand what coop is sayin though. No matter what, all we are left with is what is available today. So let's focus on what we got and move forward from here. Although, knowing where we came from will help us to where we want to go.

Love the exchange of ideas while keeping it civil, why MNS is the best forum on the web.

Best Regards

sXi

 

[coop]

I just think its impossible to every truly know the origin. If you can find similar stuff to what was being grown in the 70s or 80s it has merit in growing and looking into those variates.

The story kind of sounds like Sam sold Nev breeding stock and was wary about that. same thing tho, most of us would have no idea what to do with that stock, but it really shines in proper hybrids, so unless you have access to that same stock and want to make some killer haze hybrids then trying to find pure haze might be a disappointment for a lot of people.

Plus I wasn't smoking grass in the 70s or 80s so how the hell would I know what to compare it to.

 

[bigherb]

jack hairy


The 76 date is somthing that i stressed extensively ,till i finaly got my answer/S .Although it as you said we have the answers right ni front of us

2 pertaining quotes below

Bottom line is if you want an almost Haze line that is stong and popular get Nevilles Haze, SSH, Kali Mist, Sage, or a dozen other Haze Hybrids that mostly used my Original Haze as a parent, directly or through a Haze Hybrid based on my Haze genetics available from 1976 from me

.

As for anyone (if I got this right) implying that Original Haze clones from 1969 are used, and alive, that is plain insane, there are no Cannabis clones from 1969, that is for sure. But maybe he meant seeds from 1969? And not grown until the 80's? To be honest I do not know, except the only Original Haze seeds sold prior to the 80's were mine, That I made after 1976. One way or another something is not correct about the 1969 date, and that is what you are going on. As far as I know all Nevilles work with Haze was from Original Haze he got from me, that's what he told me anyway, back in the 80's.

-SamS

It cant be much clearer than that he said 76 an genetics from him all while mentioning MNS haze hybrids .I believe that exactly he is isayin he sold NEvil his seeds again remember the mention of burning bush being an ancestor that line was released in 81 WTF does it have to do with haze from the Cruz ?


The significance of 76 is that is when G an R.L had their fallout .Which i believe is when Sams had more of an active role with R.L . From what im told before 76 all Sams did was trim some haze buds ,i was also told G never gave Sams any Haze seeds .


A quote in which many seem to forget that Sams edited This was in response to my article

Originally Posted by Sam_Skunkman
I read this and have to say it is mostly correct, a few minor points are off. I do not want to nit-pick.
In the past I have read so much crap about the Haze it was nice to see the mostly true facts for a change.
I was in all the greenhouses that G and R.L. used to grow, they were not big or fancy. G's first crop was outdoors in the Santa Cruz mountains, they used greenhouses as soon as they could. In the beginning both lived separately just a block or two from my place, I was a close friend of both.
Remember, I was given permission to use and reproduce the genes and the name the Original Haze back in the 70's. Not that most people care, but I did.
As far as I know I am the only one with un-hybridized Haze. Only used for breeding it is amazing what happens when you use it to make Haze/Whatever hybrids, amazing.

-SamS

That bold line speak volumes .In my heart i always felt if you say somthing once you mean it no matter the situation or condition if it came out your mouth it was a thought a feeling .


Now it seems we forget what Sams says an Nevil recognized specifically from experience haze shines in hybrids .Soo the comparison of MNS/Nevils hybrids to the soo called pure haze lines is not a proper comparison .The males were very special obviously .But there are very special plants to be found in TFD/ seedman an THH lines . The haze hybrids from Sams Sold threw cultivators choice seems like they dont get enough notice ,i know they are quite special tehy also share very similar traits to MNS haze hybrids

( something i think would be very interesting is a comparison grow of MNS Sk/Hz side by side with Sams CC haze /Skunk ) .From my very limited experience an observation Mns selection seems more sativa in growth .I know its not much to judge by but with very similar parents it would be an interesting comparison which might make some revelations


I doubt that whatever stock Sams sold to any of the banks was pure ,I dont believe that Nevs stock was the same as what the other compaines got either . But it seems there is traits they all share which are similar .


Some folk forget there were 13 haze varieties Sam offered in 81 (including Burning bush )the possibilites seem wide as to what stock Nevil could have recieved .Obviously Sams was busy at work an many hybrids were in his vault .That was just in 81 an only what was offered


1luvbigherb

 

[bigherb]

sativaXindica


I agree its great to have a civil convo with like minded folk especially those i consider friends an have much respect for


Sams made many many seeds of many haze varieties .Soo who would have found that special ? who's to say that the special male wasnt found .There have been many great reports on all the available haze / hybrids lines Ace /TFD /Seedsman .Soo obviously ther have been some other great males found

Although, knowing where we came from will help us to where we want to go

.

That is somthing i live by in my life .Although i do agree with moving forward an looking toward the future .

Btw

I love that Pic


1luvbigherb

 

[bigherb]

I just think its impossible to every truly know the origin. If you can find similar stuff to what was being grown in the 70s or 80s it has merit in growing and looking into those variates.

The story kind of sounds like Sam sold Nev breeding stock and was wary about that. same thing tho, most of us would have no idea what to do with that stock, but it really shines in proper hybrids, so unless you have access to that same stock and want to make some killer haze hybrids then trying to find pure haze might be a disappointment for a lot of people.

Plus I wasn't smoking grass in the 70s or 80s so how the hell would I know what to compare it to.

We all have our opinions but i feel the story i was told is the True Origin .Even with Sams confirmation the authenticity of the story has been questioned but its only human nature i understand

We have comparisons below which show many traits of the haze that are still present today soo i believe these are places to look



Post #17 in this thread a post from IC which shows punto Rojo in colombia an tells/shows traits which ive reported

Punto rojo y mangobiche (colombia - manizales 2000mts)

we have Mtn Nectar post who i believ was an Og from the old canna boards ,he reportedily had first hand experience with haze both smoking an growing

I can't share as much as the original crew as I just turned 50.......but can say for sure Haze wasn't ready till December in Boulder Creek or Corralitos area (two spots we tended in) and as stated some phenos never really wanted to finish...would run on (flowers) till spring and re-grow....are fav was the purp phenos and had varying degrees of coloring...some calayxes were violet to almost black purp with green foilage...others all purple from the start.....kinda' grape licorice anise flavoring with a dash of spicy pepper..

on the question to incense ...maybe frankenscense...but to judge ones palate vs anothers is subjective to the individual.......the phenos were everywhere when it came to the Haze...as well as the tastes/flavors and highs

We have happyhi's description of the four varieties

the four plants emerged right from the get go, remember there was no serious breeding program, just pollen chucking. It originated from a punto rojo seed and then was breed to itself for the duration of it's existence.
the four plants were
1. OH- purple calyxes green leaves, did not turn purple due to cold. red sap.
rich deep smoke, very very sweet, down to the last hit, many thought it tasted like
smoking juicy fruit with a very rich finish. no incense smell
2.Magenta- often referred to as the root beer plant because that's how it tasted to many.
3.light green almost silver blue- my favorite, we used to call it Bilko weed, cause we would watch lots of sargent bilko and laugh our asses off along with a bit of the honeymooners. this was the closest thing to smoking acid, very very clear and up.
taste was sweet but much spicier than the others, peppery sweet and very expansive.
4. green/brown- this plant had the most incense smell and was probably the most like old school high altitude mexican. i can't remember how the taste was different except that it was old school tasting, not as sweet more musky.
These memories are old as am i, so my apologies if they aren't as descriptive as some.

Oldtimer’s Haze is a delight for 70s sativas lovers, a trip back into the past for all those who could not enjoy it at that time.

Structure: Slim and elegant plants, with a tall, branched structure. Medium-length internodes. At the time of growing, the leaf is very thin and shows a pale colour. It reacts very well to pruning.

Bouquet: Dark, fruity aroma, with earthy touches of ashes, incense and antique wood aroma.

Green Haze’s aroma is fruitier (like tropical ripe fruit), while Purple Hazes smell like blackberry and black liquor

Tom hill spoke of the acid pheno ,Many have reported grabbing as many packs of the pure haze lines to find a keeper .Sams has suggested it best for breeding purposes

below Mnt necar said it himself

I personally thought alot of it was of lesser quality than the commercial imports of the time....can't remember who said it, but an estimated 5% of population was considered top quality..............this is why I became so interested in my sources ability to zero in on the preferred purple phenos.........otherwise I would have never continued the quest

BUt there are still afew who have found their keeper Ohaze plant have a look below


http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=201830&page=5


http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/5-strain-base/6005-original-haze.html



1luvbigherb

 

[Hemphrey Bogart]

Heya Bigherb and MNS family,

that quote from sams about how he was trying to "save" the haze has always interested me.

Is sams saying there that he did open pollenations or what? If so, that would possibly account for what Nev was seeing from the plants he got to grow out.

It may not be that Nev got "hybridized" haze, it might be that he got a mix of seed from the same mother plants that had been impregnated by a bunch of different haze males.

I know just from growing the 12 or so Nev's haze plants this indoor season that there is extreme variation in the plants and NH is supposed to be a somewhat stabilized hybrid, or at least it should be at this point. I had two runt plants in this run of NH that looked more like pure afghani indica plants (very thick stems, thick and wide leaves, very dense clusters of flowers). The Tom's haze I grew out had some small differences in structure and smells, but nothing like the NH. I didn't get any indica looking runts from the 9 THH seed I popped. Not good or bad, just sayin.

I think what Nev got was seed created through open pollenation with a bunch of males/females and zero selection.

As an aside, the plant I'm growing from old seed (1990) looks very much like my most haziest looking NH. The only real difference being the smell and that the brachts on the NH are bigger/more indica-ish. I got some pics of the old seed plant in my gallery taken a few weeks ago. I should do a more recent side by side photo just so you guys can see what I'm seeing. Not saying I have original haze seed by any means, but when looked at side by side, they do look somewhat similar in basic structure. The old seed plant (I've taken to calling it Loma Prieta) has a more heavy incense/haze type smell and the NH keeper has a more fruity/haze smell to it.

I've never smoked real deal Original Haze as far as I know. Most of the herb I was smoking in the late 70's and early 80s was imported thai, columbian, mexican, and/or hawaiian. During the harvest season, I would usually find lots of light green, fluffy skunk bud from Mendo or locally grown purple skunk, but this was in the mid to late 80's.

In 1989/1990, I was smoking very little else aside from skunk/skunk hybrids and anything I could get my hands on from Mendo. Loma Prieta is no skunk plant and I wasn't ordering seed back then, so what is it??? LOL. I wish I could go back in time and find out where I got those original seed from.

HB.

 

[biteme]

nice posts and good questions! and i will be the first to agree that my opinion on the veracity of certain comments made by others does absolutely nothing in assisting us in finding the true origins of haze.

further, i think it is important to give bigherb all the room he needs in pursuit of this puzzle. he took it upon himself to research and write what we have seen thus far, no small task, and i want to encourage this budding historian to keep up the good work. another problem; i quickly realized that posting my thoughts on sams at the time this article was printed would give another faction additional fuel to fan the flames and further detract from a common goal and common good.

and so i took my thinking on this to bigherb via pm. and even though we go in opposite directions on this issue, i am pretty sure he realizes that i am also a fan of his current work and in that regard, and have pointed him in directions that ime could still be helpful. the og archives hold a wealth of info should that door open again. all of those young seed makers that just disappeared? alas. such a short time ago but it will prove to be a very bad thing for all of us in the end as i think my old eyes are seeing genetics go awry? peace-biteme

 

[cannabisspfecund]

"quote from bigherb
cannabisspfecund,

Fighting is not what im here for Nor should anyone else

The haze topic is close to my heart an these discussion are somthing i enjoy .

Opinions are like assholes we all have one an were all here to share but we should do soo respectfully as you have


From what i gather of your post you still have abit of research to do id suggest goin to the grail ultimate haze thread an question for nevil where he explains in detail everything about his haze experience an backround i asked many question which made interesting revelations hence further brightening my opinion which is basically wht Sams an Nevil have said in other words


Quote:
at the same time nevil used stock from earlier generations of the haze line
This quote above from you is why i say it seems your uninformed ,Nevil admitts getting his stock from Sams .Soo ther is no debate an the idea of an earlier haze IMHO should never be used again as I know for a fact it wasnt the words of Nevil .


Now to prove my point/opinion here are some quotes from both Sams an Nevil which proves as a fact that Nevilles haze aswell as todays current offerings are not the Santa Cruz haze aka Punto rojo pure colombian "



nice attempt to discredit me. i never said that nevil didnt get his seeds from sam, in fact my post indicated that that was the case. perhaps you need to do your research and find out who actually breed those seeds as it wasnt sam, you suggest that they are hybrids breed by sam...

bigherb
"Now ad to that Nevil admitts he thought the stock wasnt pure an was hybrids made by Sams in his own words he says that"

um he never ever said that sam breed these seeds, instead nevil has always maintained that the seeds were just passed on by sam. sam himself admits to not working on it till a later date.

i never said nevils haze had Punto rojo in it, that was your the idea about haze. according to you it was added to the whole haze genetics sometime after nevils stock was made. nevil did recall something about burning bush being a common ancetser to his stock. youve already pointed out what sam said that burning bush was haze, and that he told nevil it was a ancestor to the haze.

bigherb
"Originally Posted by Sam_Skunkman / Overgrow
Burning Bush was a pure Original Haze, on the Thai side with very thin buds that looked like shit, except they were covered in resin, an Oz would make a ziplock all sticky as hell inside. It was very very strong. Also hard to roll a jay because it was so sticky and did not burn so great, even though dryed and cured perfect. Just to much resin."

bigherb
"nevil quote "I didn't say the bag was labeled burning bush. Sam said something about burning bush being an ancestor of the Haze."

as for this

big herb
"To sum up my thoughts on the avavilble haze lines such as MNS stock it was Sams work which is why we see the thai influence ,Soo any haze with Thai is not the Cruz haze of the 70's. MNS is the home of the haze away from washinton heights an i will continue to explore Nevils haze till i find my special lady or the Grail is released"

so now again your claiming that sam breed nevils stock.

then you post this

"This is evident by Sams post below


Quote:
Originally Posted by Knowsitall4sure / Cannabis World
When did you first see and smoke the Haze?
1971 for me"

besides the fact that you also you use thai for your accusations for nevils stock being from sams 76 ? when sam new the burning bush as a thai haze? your a bit off there mate.

i have read the rest of the follow up replys, i dont see much of a point responding to them.

why would sam lie about the age of the seeds that he sold nevil? and then sam goes on to change his story to cover his tracks later on as perhaps hes tiered of being just the skunkman.

theres no hiding it. originaly, at the time of sale they were stock produced before sam had smoked the haze, now its sam self made 76 stock nevil has because that would give sam the credit for what is now nevils work.

in that original quote by sam i was talking about, sam himeself also indicates that nevil had pre 70 stock. saying that mayb nevil was talking about haze from the 60's grown out in the 80's, once again he wouldnt say that if sam had actually sold him 76 stock and not pre 70.

its obvious your a bit of a sam fan, but for the rest of us who half half a brain can see sam has 10 stories not 1! just about every1 where he hasnt slipped up was based on creating the idea that he is responsible for breeding all the haze that is available today. he even admits to adding outside stock to the haze, but then also claiming that he has the only "pure" haze.

im not sure about the rest of you but im pretty sure all the infos there for you to make up your own mind about what really went on.

cheers