Breeding techniques

[Donald Mallard]

Well im no expert ,
but id take a guess that studing plant breeding would be more benefitial to breeding plants ,
and studing animal breeding would be more benefitial to breeding animals ..

 

[hempy]

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[pepel29]

Hello friends

 

[pepel29]

Great tread

 

[reppin2c]

This thread was off to a good start and then was drug down by trolls. My hats off to nevil for an attempt at telling peeps what its about as well as his accomplishments.

As far a bottlenecking is concerned- I think Id rather sacrifice genetic diversity if all the plants are good and for all the peeps who want inferior plants addy up and Ill send you my throw aways.

 

[HighBreed]

Spent a lot of time reading this thread.
Amazed at the rare chance available from a thread started by the great Nevil himself!
Started off a bit rough but got better.

Ignore my name, yes ive been a (really) low population seed maker. (hack whatever).
Havent made seeds in years, was learning more and about ready to start back up.
Ignore who I am, lets talk Mendelian Law and Selfing
Not focusing on epigentics or anything besides mendels work.

Lets look at one trait first with selfing.
What ever trait you want. I understand things dont always mix as expected.

The 1:1 ratio observed when back-crossing F1 to P1 and the 1:2:1 ratio observed in F1 to F1 crosses are the two basic Mendelian ratios for the inheritance of one character controlled by one pair of genes - Marijuana Botany

Wouldnt crossing an F1 female to an F1 male be similar with selfing when it comes to one trait?
Recombines the genes?
What good would it be to buy feminized seeds from a hybrid? Wouldnt they differ?

Lets say the traits are strong branched and weak branched.

We have 3 possibilities. SS SW or WW.
Say the elite mother is strong branched.
So we know that she shows a dominant trait of strong branches vs weak.
She may be homozygous for strong branching or she might have one dominant strong branching allele and one recessive weak branch allele.
Assuming we have a elite that is strong branched we can assume she is SS or S(?)
(in ours and most cases Sw, w being the recessive trait.)

When we self her we are crossing either SS x SS or Sw x Sw.

If the mom is homozygous for that trait then all the progeny will show SS.

If the mother is Sw (heterozygous for that trait) then we see the 1:2:1 ratio
SS or Sw or wS or ww
resulting in 3 of the 4 showing strong branching and the 4th being a homozygous recessive for that weak branching.

That is for one trait. When we look at two traits we see the 9:3:3:1 ratio.
What ever trait the parent is heterozygous for will show in a selfing.

This is just what i might have learned reading.
Good tool for finding parent plants?

Just trying to get into this discussion
Im not a fan of people selling feminized seeds unless they find a stable mom.
For me I just wanted to know more about selfing. (CS or STS)

I found this interesting.

If brothers and sisters are mated together every generation, it will only take 20 generations for all individuals in a family line to share 98+% of the same alleles—they essentially will be clones, and breeding results will be close to those resulting from self-fertilization.

Modern Theories of Evolution: Non-random Mating

Say something like start with an elite female and some seeds.
Select multiple males and pollinate the female.
Test seeds from each population for a desirable F1 female and backcross to her father.
(F1 x P1male) makes the 1:1 ratio.
Make an incross (f2?) from the Bx population (1:1 ratio into 1:2:1).
Find a homozygous female for two traits (make S1's from multiple females to find).

From here one could take the homozyous (F2?) female
and cross her with males from the Bx population (maybe even her father?),
selecting the population from the best progeny resulting from the cross.

Another would be to make an S1 from a homozygous female in the incross (f2?) population,
select a desirable female and pollinate her with males from the
backcross population or the incross (f2?) population.


Resulting progeny should be 50% homozygous for two traits and
50% homozygous for one trait and heterozyous for the second trait
all progeny should show dominance for the two desired traits.

This is a theory for me that I want to put to practice.
Discuss? Be kind

 

[gidion]

well..

I read to page 23 then skipped to the end... Too much off topic nonsense.

What HighBreed has spoken of above is what I believe should have been stop 1 on this thread

We all agree (I hope) that without understanding the P1 plants we are pissing into the wind. So........ How do we:
a) identify traits or phenotypes.
b) How do we then identify whether the trait is Homozygote or not.



Question b is the killer one for me.

 

[beta]

Eeexcellent topic! I've been a lurker here at Mr.Nice for a couple years now, and this is the thread that finally convinced me to sign up for an account.

Here's an interesting and relevant article from britannica.com on the dangers of line-breeding phenotypical curiousities:

White Tigers: Conserving a Lie - Advocacy For Animals

As a burgeoning breeder, hybrids and polyhybrids make the most sense to me - After all, my primary goal is unique and wonderful herb. Perhaps I'll start looking more in to line breeding once I do find that super uniquely wonderful pheno, but for now finding and keeping great mommas works well for me.

A quick question along that same line, though - If I were to find a great polyhybrid pheno, would crossing it to a different and unrelated polyhybrid male result in the uniformity and vigor you typically see with F1 hybrid (IBL x IBL) crosses? I only ask because I think that would be a great way to lock in the valuable traits you've found in that random polyhybrid - Just test it against various males until you find one that hybridizes with it in such a way that it maintains the desirable qualities of the mother. Then, produce a whooole bunch o' seeds. Not only would these seeds make a great reservoir of the traits you desire, they'd also make great stock to begin a line breeding project - Wouldn't they?

Good idea? Bad idea? I'd love to hear y'alls thoughts...

 

[joshuahazen]

In my experience the answer to your question is definitely yes. However not all hybrid crosses result in hybrid vigor. Many result in hybrid depression. The key is in finding a good hybrid cross. The same is true whether you are outcrossing 2 IBLs or 2 polyhybrids, or even a polyhybrid to an IBL.

Check out the link in my signature, it addresses your question in great detail.

 

[coop]

Josh,
have you noticed any similarities between the plants that don't provide hybrid vigor?
This kind of relates to a question i have, if you cross 2 plants how do you know what generation the parents are from and then what would that make the offspring?

 

[Pepe Le Pew]

As a burgeoning breeder, hybrids and polyhybrids make the most sense to me - After all, my primary goal is unique and wonderful herb. Perhaps I'll start looking more in to line breeding once I do find that super uniquely wonderful pheno, but for now finding and keeping great mommas works well for me.

A quick question along that same line, though - If I were to find a great polyhybrid pheno, would crossing it to a different and unrelated polyhybrid male result in the uniformity and vigor you typically see with F1 hybrid (IBL x IBL) crosses? I only ask because I think that would be a great way to lock in the valuable traits you've found in that random polyhybrid - Just test it against various males until you find one that hybridizes with it in such a way that it maintains the desirable qualities of the mother. Then, produce a whooole bunch o' seeds. Not only would these seeds make a great reservoir of the traits you desire, they'd also make great stock to begin a line breeding project - Wouldn't they?

Good idea? Bad idea? I'd love to hear y'alls thoughts...

In my experience the answer to your question is definitely yes. However not all hybrid crosses result in hybrid vigor. Many result in hybrid depression. The key is in finding a good hybrid cross. The same is true whether you are outcrossing 2 IBLs or 2 polyhybrids, or even a polyhybrid to an IBL.

Check out the link in my signature, it addresses your question in great detail.

The vigor is dependent on individual pairings and could go either way agreed, but I would respectfully disagree with Joshuahazen here, surely using a pair of unknown, unrelated polyhybrid parents will produce the opposite of the uniformity of a true F1, you will produce any number of phenotypes which may suit your search for unique mothers but nowhere near uniform.

 

[joshuahazen]

Josh,
have you noticed any similarities between the plants that don't provide hybrid vigor?
This kind of relates to a question i have, if you cross 2 plants how do you know what generation the parents are from and then what would that make the offspring?

Well it is hard to tell, Frequently my hunches are right and sometimes they aren't.

I have noticed that unrelated plants that seem to be similar in appearance to one another, often cross well. And sometimes plants that are totally different will cross really well. It is just trial and error, keep your fingers crossed. Sometimes its a hit, and sometimes it isn't.

Out of around 15 crosses I did with Nl5Hz, only 2 were really good. They blew all the others away.

Generationally it is relative. If someone crosses two plants together that are unrelated that is F1, if he then crosses siblings from F1 generation together, that then becomes F2, crossing siblings from F2 together to make F3 and so on...

The vigor is dependent on individual pairings and could go either way agreed, but I would respectfully disagree with Joshuahazen here, surely using a pair of unknown, unrelated polyhybrid parents will produce the opposite of the uniformity of a true F1, you will produce any number of phenotypes which may suit your search for unique mothers but nowhere near uniform.

Nobody said anything about unknown, presumably if one is breeding a plant, it is known, whether a polyhybrid or not, if not by its pedigree, then at least by its performance.

Unrelated Polyhybrids are an outcross by definition. A true outcross is generally referred to as an F1 cross in breeding.

Uniformity is a relative term. Lets take a stable hybrid cross like Northern Lights #5X HazeC for example: This is an IBL crossed to an extreme polyhybrid. Now that was a stable uniform cross. The F1 will always appear at least somewhat uniform when compared to its F2 progeny.


Many MNS F1 crosses are extreme polyhybrids on both sides(ie La nina and Mango Widow), and many of these crosses may throw diverse phenos, however as diverse as these F1 phenos may appear to be, I can assure you, that when compared to their F2 progeny, they will be quite uniform.

 

[Kangativa]

I think hybrid vigour occurs a lot less these days due to the fact that a lot of strains have a common parent some where in the breeding.
In the old days we saw it more often because we were crossing pure Sativas with pure Indicas.

 

[Pepe Le Pew]

Nobody said anything about unknown, presumably if one is breeding a plant, it is known, whether a polyhybrid or not, if not by its pedigree, then at least by its performance.

Unrelated Polyhybrids are an outcross by definition. A true outcross is generally referred to as an F1 cross in breeding.

Uniformity is a relative term. Lets take a stable hybrid cross like Northern Lights #5X HazeC for example: This is an IBL crossed to an extreme polyhybrid. Now that was a stable uniform cross. The F1 will always appear at least somewhat uniform when compared to its F2 progeny.


Many MNS F1 crosses are extreme polyhybrids on both sides(ie La nina and Mango Widow), and many of these crosses may throw diverse phenos, however as diverse as these F1 phenos may appear to be, I can assure you, that when compared to their F2 progeny, they will be quite uniform.

I had the impression beta is at the start of his project, I don't see any reference to any known/tested parents, quite the opposite really.

beta

I only ask because I think that would be a great way to lock in the valuable traits you've found in that random polyhybrid - Just test it against various males until you find one that hybridizes with it in such a way that it maintains the desirable qualities of the mother.

Not sure how you got on to F2's but beta's question was -

"If I were to find a great polyhybrid pheno, would crossing it to a different and unrelated polyhybrid male result in the uniformity and vigor you typically see with F1 hybrid (IBL x IBL) crosses?

To which the short answer is no, far from it.

 

[Mark]

If I were to find a great polyhybrid pheno, would crossing it to a different and unrelated polyhybrid male result in the uniformity and vigor you typically see with F1 hybrid (IBL x IBL) crosses?

I would expect you would get the vigor but the uniformity would be dependent on the individual parents. In F1 hybrids, uniformity stems from both parents being stable/true breeding - in this case, no matter which individual plants combine the genetic combinations are extremely similar. Two separate poly-hybrid plants could be stabilized to the point where they could be combined to produce uniform progeny with the right breeding.

If however, you are simply asking do 2 different/random poly-hybrid plants combine to produce uniform F1 progency, the answer is that it's close to impossible.

Well, that's my take on it anyway.

 

[joshuahazen]

I had the impression beta is at the start of his project, I don't see any reference to any known/tested parents, quite the opposite really.

beta

Not sure how you got on to F2's but beta's question was -


To which the short answer is no, far from it.

Ok, I see what you are saying. I agree with you, Generally, that you will get more uniformity from an F1 cross between 2 unrelated IBLs then you will from an F1 cross between unrelated polyhybrids; that is certain. But as far as vigor is concerned, that depends on the cross. The most vigorous plants I have ever seen came from an F1 cross between polyhybrids.

He said "If I find a great polyhybrid pheno" I am assuming that if he knows its great, its because he has in fact tested it.

 

[pepel29]

 

[MJPassion]

I think hybrid vigour occurs a lot less these days due to the fact that a lot of strains have a common parent some where in the breeding.
In the old days we saw it more often because we were crossing pure Sativas with pure Indicas.

This makes sense to me. Thanks Kanga.

If you're only looking at a couple of traits to be combined these charts are OK but, IMHO, they over simplify the entire peocess.

Look at a chart that has several characteristics that are being searched for a personal "Holy Grail". Look at a chart that has included in it, Height, Branching, Flavor, Potency, Aroma & Medicinal effect. Every aspect that is being scrutinized will exponentially increase the amount of "phenotypes" that will be observed.

I don't wanna discourage anybody from making seeds either. I wanna emphasize the amount of variation a person should realistically expect from a batch of seeds.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Bit of advice is to work towards one goal at a time. Only select towards or away from a trait and leave the pool as open as possible while meeting your goal. When you're trying to get the Tall, thin, purple, heady stuff all in one swoop you'll find it near impossible.

 

[Colorado]

Neanderthal

I got a good laugh from the let's bring back the Neanderthal post by Brock1.

I really liked the post that quoted the aricle from Shanti and his inbreeding program and that is the type of thing we need more of in this thread along with more of Nevil's experience.

Can we try to spread some more information on the simpler aspects of breeding that will be more useful to the small time breeder who isn't trying to be responsible for saving the world's gene pool.

For example, say I have a really good clone which I think is almost perfect but maybe the growth structure and yield could be improved. I would also like to make this into an IBL so that the genetics will be stabilized so that it will be easier to reproduce from storage from seed and to use in breeding in the future. Since it is a clone only hybrid I must find a male from another source. Would it be better to use an IBL to find a male if I want to eventually make this into a line that will make consistent seeds within as few generations as possible. Would the IBL's consistency help me to stabilize my mother genotype? Then exactly who should I cross the F1s to first? To each other first or back to the original mother P1 first? It would seem to me to go back to the mom right away to keep her traits dominant but am I wrong? Exactly how many times should I cross what to what? I guess maybe it depends on what I get from offspring in relation to my goal but I'm not sure exaclty which backcrosses will be more detrimental when trying to avoid inbreeding depression. I can read from the article from Shanti on inbreeding the way he likes to do it but I am sure there are other methods and simple rules to follow.