HazeC, C5, what did I miss?

Diesel840 said:
Correct. Afghan Haze uses Hz C, not Shantis Mulumbimby Madness that is used in La Nina
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You may be correct. Or not. He is on record as saying it is and as saying it's not. So we'll never know for sure. He's been adamant that he only spells Haze C as "Haze C", and he will only use the Haze C moniker if a strain has Haze C in it. He's said he has a number of 'Hazes' that are not A, C, or AC. When not using one of them often just "Haze' is stated. Mullumbimby Madness is often written as 'Haze(origins of Thai, Columbian)'. If he states Haze C is in something and someone grows it and no Haze C, you know what will happen. Going back to May 13, 2007 the word Haze C has never been in the description of Afghan Haze. Nor ASH or La Nina.

I have grown ASH, La Nina, and Afghan Haze and have not noticed anything that looked, smelled or smoked like Haze C. While that could happen it's not likely. What Haze C traits did you notice in your ASH, La Nina, or Afghan Haze plants, Diesel?

Top bud is Holy Grail. 70% Haze C? Bottom bud is Afghan Haze. The 50% Haze C is very, very well hidden. Diesel, post up some of your Afghan Haze or ASH and show me the Haze C.

HG a AH A(1).jpg


So rather than begin debates that spark rumors that kindle stories that burn down truths...try to plant a seed and see if that proves who we are or not.
All the best to all of you...Shantibaba

Yes, plant a seed, Diesel.........prove who you are.
 
Diesel840 said:
If you grow out a full straw of two or 3 different varieties, you'd have a good represwntation of what that line offers and can stick with that line for further exploration.
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I can only dream about running all three strains at the time, As i mention, my project is a very "amateurish" attempt confined to a dedicated room of less than 6 m2.
And yes, @Swifty series "In search of a keeper" is a captivating reading.
Zero0 said:
If I had to choose a strain to find a male Haze C keeper I would take Holy Grail.
71% Haze C.

About Afghan Haze I don't think it's the best idea.
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I would prefer to grow Holy Grail over Afghan Haze for the smoke. That's for sure.
But for the goal of finding the extreme leaner in f2 progeny, the pure indica x pure haze will suit better.
longball said:
I have grown ASH, La Nina, and Afghan Haze and have not noticed anything that looked, smelled or smoked like Haze C
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Right!
I have a totally unsubstantiated clue that those things (call it combination of terpenes and cannabinoids who knows) which make the unique high of Haze C are recessive trait which cannot be easily found in progeny. As I said, it is just ungrounded suspicion of mine which comes from reading on a subject only and not derived from personal grows.
But I have a very limited acquaintance with effects of Haze C. Twice to be precise. With a recent one when I got few little jars of Isaac Haze. That was my share of harvest where I did not participate in the the grow and only provided my room and facilities. I was impressed with an effect. Thus began my search. This is why I am here.

​

 
longball said:
What Haze C traits did you notice in your ASH, La Nina, or Afghan Haze plants, Diesel
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I'm not concerned with arguing about the genetics with someone who doesn't believe the breeder and has previously flamed at me about it. I was directing the information to the OP. Go pick a fight with someone else.
 
Isaac Haze (AG13xC5/5HzC) as posted by Yo Sammy on icmag

1744469258099.png
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Please let me know if I violate forum rules by posting pictures of non-MNS plants from another forum. @musashi was clear about discussion re. non-MNS strains.
May be I can justify myself by the fact that we what we are discussing here is not the strain of the other seed bank. This is all about Haze C which is the cornerstone of foundation of MNS.
 
helmsman said:
:Haze leaning pheno of AG13xC5/5HzC" ( as posted by Yo Sammy on icmag)

View attachment 99057
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This plant does remind me of a MH inbred female:

MHIBL95Nice.jpg



MHIBL218(MHI1)Nice.jpg


MHIBL292(MHI1)Nice.jpg


One thing is sure, if you dive into MNS hazes you can find special and unique pheno's.
 
Swifty said:
This plant does remind me of a MH inbred female:
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Beautiful plant and astonishing resemblance!

Now, at the risk of heavily de-railing the thread: what makes great number of MNS strains referred to them as an IBL? What makes them IBL?
IBL (like F2 as well) is widely and wildly misinterpreted term.
First backcross, second backcross, simply squaring and cubing.. that does not make an IBL.
Example: Dave Scott received Meridian Haze from Santero in the form c5bx2 seeds, made c5bx2 f2, and just labelled result as an IBL.
But it does not work this way, until homozygosity created through selection and inbreeding of generations. And then at some point somewhere on your way of creating IBL you realize that mysterious gene responsible to carry this amazing high was a recessive in a parent you selected two generations ago, and it took you exactly one year to get that.

So, again, what makes those seeds IBL?

Sure, there must have been hot discussion somewhere here on this forum. Before people agreed to pay those prices.
But I cannot find it, probably buried too deep. Anyone can point me in the direction?
 
I found this helmsman:

Great question, I believe Mango Haze to be a most interesting variety on a number of levels. Below is some information from Shanti to help get you started in the right direction.

Mango Haze Inbred Generation
Inbred generation using female MH select to Male F1 selected seed made by Shantibaba personally.
Tall haze plant expected with good yields.
Unreleased prevoiusly in this version
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Mr Nice Auctions Mango Haze Inbred Generation

Originally Posted by shantibaba
MH inbred is one part of a back cross i did some 16 months ago when i was playing around to find a 8-9 week cloner. Did not finish this work and there are some gems to find in this seed foresure....not much more info i can offer on this...as i did not test it in this batch, only germination was tested.
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http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/6-breede...755-limited-mango-haze-inbred-generation.html

Not much info, as shanti says: the proof is in the seed!
 
helmsman said:
So, again, what makes those seeds IBL?

Sure, there must have been hot discussion somewhere here on this forum. Before people agreed to pay those prices.
But I cannot find it, probably buried too deep. Anyone can point me in the direction?
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Yesterday, I read the whole Breeding Techniques thread that was started by Nevil. Lots of great tips and it should be read by anyone wanting to breed anything. Pot, horses, dogs, etc. Some talk of IBL's and a lot of talk of inbreeding in general. 2/3 of the thread is name-calling, you will learn who to ignore pretty quick. There are a few other good growers in the thread with some gems and Nevil puts a lot of gold out there. The thread is 58 pages long and Nevil stops posting about page 27. When he doesn't post for like 3 pages, he's gone.

While the thread is about Nevil's breeding techniques overall, and I have no intention of making IBL's, I did C&P these two tidbits.

“By opposite types do you mean, for example, a Haze and NL5 - indica and sativa?” Yes. For example; Sk1 and Garlic are very similar types but come from separate sources. NL2 and Kush were also similar but unrelated. You can use these similarities to create more complex hybrids that have a predictable outcome, whilst at the same time, optimise the advantages of hybrid vigour. It has often been observed that IBL's lack yield. This is generally only true when they are being compared with hybrids. - N."

"On the subject of hybrids and stabilising lines, I'd like to say a few words. From the perspective of an experienced and critical smoker, the blending of types can only be done genetically. What I mean to say is that mixing pure Haze weed and pure NL together and smoking it, will not give you the same effect as the hybrid would. The hybrid is better! Inbreeding the hybrid and making F2s and so on will not give you a product that is the equal of the original F1. You may get a different version that is very good, but it won't have that perfect blend of the F1. Subtleties that come from the exact 50-50 blend of the F1 get lost under a layer of more dominant traits that are expressed more and more as you continue to inbreed brothers to sisters. It's not that I'm against this tek to create an IBL. I know it to be effective, it's just that if you have a F1 hybrid that excels be cause it's a blend of polar opposites, you won't hold on to that by inbreeding to siblings. This method of creating IBLs is more suited to hybrids that are put together because of their similarity of type. – N"

Lots and lots great breeding tips and if you are thinking of making IBL's it's a great read to learn to breed. ;)

Longball
 
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helmsman said:
Now, at the risk of heavily de-railing the thread: what makes great number of MNS strains referred to them as an IBL? What makes them IBL?
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depending on the IBL, Shanti may use different techniques and routes to IBL status. His G13 IBLs for instance would likely use different techniques than his unreleased Mango IBL. With the G13 he was trying to breed for as much G13 traits as possible, or their best representation. That was done as a preservation. His unreleased IBLs, example Mango, was to further breed the variety and bottleneck certain traits. The quotes @Swifty gave read like a backcross, BUT, Shanti doesn't clarify what generation the select female Mango haze was, that he bred back to his f1 male mango haze. The select female could be f2, f3, f4.. we don't know. If he crossed an f4 to the f1 it would offer good stability with some renewed vigor from inbreeding for a bit before backcrossing to the f1.
 
longball said:
Yesterday, I read the whole Breeding Techniques thread that was started by Nevil. Lots of great tips and it should be read by anyone wanting to breed anything. Pot, horses, dogs, etc. Some talk of IBL's and a lot of talk of inbreeding in general. 2/3 of the thread is name-calling, you will learn who to ignore pretty quick. There are a few other good growers in the thread with some gems and Nevil puts a lot of gold out there. The thread is 58 pages long and Nevil stops posting about page 27. When he doesn't post for like 3 pages, he's gone.

While the thread is about Nevil's breeding techniques overall, and I have no intention of making IBL's, I did C&P these two tidbits.

“By opposite types do you mean, for example, a Haze and NL5 - indica and sativa?” Yes. For example; Sk1 and Garlic are very similar types but come from separate sources. NL2 and Kush were also similar but unrelated. You can use these similarities to create more complex hybrids that have a predictable outcome, whilst at the same time, optimise the advantages of hybrid vigour. It has often been observed that IBL's lack yield. This is generally only true when they are being compared with hybrids. - N."

"On the subject of hybrids and stabilising lines, I'd like to say a few words. From the perspective of an experienced and critical smoker, the blending of types can only be done genetically. What I mean to say is that mixing pure Haze weed and pure NL together and smoking it, will not give you the same effect as the hybrid would. The hybrid is better! Inbreeding the hybrid and making F2s and so on will not give you a product that is the equal of the original F1. You may get a different version that is very good, but it won't have that perfect blend of the F1. Subtleties that come from the exact 50-50 blend of the F1 get lost under a layer of more dominant traits that are expressed more and more as you continue to inbreed brothers to sisters. It's not that I'm against this tek to create an IBL. I know it to be effective, it's just that if you have a F1 hybrid that excels be cause it's a blend of polar opposites, you won't hold on to that by inbreeding to siblings. This method of creating IBLs is more suited to hybrids that are put together because of their similarity of type. – N"

Lots and lots great breeding tips and if you are thinking of making IBL's it's a great read to learn to breed. ;)

Longball
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Amazing post longball, thank you for this
 
Not advertising here, but I thought I would share that I noted another one which might be of interest to MNS community and for my own project. Regular seeds, labeled as "C5 BC". From Silverback Genetics. Small team, not much info about them on icmag and overgrow
Description as given on their website: "C5 BC - Swami’s 1988 NL5xHAZE mother crossed with YoSammy’s meticulously bred C5 BC male (itself a cross of the original C5 cut and an NL5xHaze/C5 hybrid)."

I sent SG email asking them: "Who actually produced male? Swami's Gas selection of one of Yo Sammy's works or Yo Sammy bred himself and then somehow Swami got this male?
I am asking because Yo Sammy's using male of his own selection from Mr. Nice NL5xHaze seeds, did his own C5HzxC5x(NL5xHzC)
I.e. where to place this male you mentioned?"

Got their reply in approx. a thirty seconds. Saying:
quote
The C5BC seed line we've created uses two mothers, one 88' NL5XHAZE and one C5 BX1 (C5x5HzC/C5) and a extremely vigorous and productive male. The 88' NL5XHAZE came from Swami's Organic Seeds and the C5BX1 came from YoSammy.
If we assume Swami's 88' NL5XHAZE is HzC, which we confirmed by growing them out, then the exact linage of the seeds you've purchased can be denoted as the following: 5HzC x (C5 x 5HzC/C5)
unquote

I noted also Yo Sammy's "like" on their Instagram page with C5 BC photo. Well, it is a kind of sufficient proof of legitimacy to me.
 
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helmsman said:
Not advertising here, but I thought I would share that I noted another one which might be of interest to MNS community and for my own project. Regular seeds, labeled as "C5 BC". From Silverback Genetics. Small team, not much info about them on icmag and overgrow
Description as given on their website: "C5 BC - Swami’s 1988 NL5xHAZE mother crossed with YoSammy’s meticulously bred C5 BC male (itself a cross of the original C5 cut and an NL5xHaze/C5 hybrid)."
Asked them question: Who actually produced male? Swami's Gas selection of one of Yo Sammy's works or Yo Sammy bred himself and then somehow Swami got this male?
I am asking because Yo Sammy's using male of his own selection from Mr. Nice NL5xHaze seeds, did his own C5HzxC5x(NL5xHzC)
I.e. where to place this male you mentioned?

Got their reply in approx. a thirty seconds. Saying:
quote
The C5BC seed line we've created uses two mothers, one 88' NL5XHAZE and one C5 BX1 (C5x5HzC/C5) and a extremely vigorous and productive male. The 88' NL5XHAZE came from Swami's Organic Seeds and the C5BX1 came from YoSammy.
If we assume Swami's 88' NL5XHAZE is HzC, which we confirmed by growing them out, then the exact linage of the seeds you've purchased can be denoted as the following: 5HzC x (C5 x 5HzC/C5)
unquote

I noted also Yo Sammy's "like" on their Instagram page with C5 BC photo. Well, it is a kind of sufficient proof of legitimacy to me.
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Hello Helmsman, can I question you on this post, as I am not fully following what you are asking, are you looking for clarity on what Silverback used, or that it was indeed Sammy's male that was used?

The bit that is throwing me off is what you mean by ie. where to place this male you mentioned. I am not sure who the "you" is that is in that question, are you asking this?

Thanks for sharing though, it is interesting seeing what other breeders are working with. Do you know which haze was used in the 1988 offering from Nevil? I wonder was it A or C?
 
lozac123 said:
Hello Helmsman, can I question you on this post, as I am not fully following what you are asking, are you looking for clarity on what Silverback used, or that it was indeed Sammy's male that was used?

The bit that is throwing me off is what you mean by ie. where to place this male you mentioned. I am not sure who the "you" is that is in that question, are you asking this?

Thanks for sharing though, it is interesting seeing what other breeders are working with. Do you know which haze was used in the 1988 offering from Nevil? I wonder was it A or C?
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@helmsman Just spoke with Sammy, Silverbacks line it is indeed legit. Apparently A5 was never released to the public, so the haze is indeed haze c.
 
lozac123 said:
Hello Helmsman, can I question you on this post, as I am not fully following what you are asking, are you looking for clarity on what Silverback used, or that it was indeed Sammy's male that was used?

The bit that is throwing me off is what you mean by ie. where to place this male you mentioned. I am not sure who the "you" is that is in that question, are you asking this?

Thanks for sharing though, it is interesting seeing what other breeders are working with. Do you know which haze was used in the 1988 offering from Nevil? I wonder was it A or C?
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The first Haze cup winner you would have to ask the Guys that were at the event but there is no 88 catalouge a revised 87 is what there is, the Haze to win the first cup was a female haze crossed to a male Early Pearl/Skunk#1./NL#5 so the descriptions read.

Aparently this was Haze 'B' Nev says in his messages that is was something he made hash from and didn't keep a clone of and regretted it.

Steve Hagar says he was smoking this at the first cups infront of Rob and Dave and they didn't have haze hash then, I don't know how truthfull any of this old school is.

It's in the catalouge and NL Haze isn't. Hope that helps.

If you look at the Mango Widow the resembelance of this plant in the top pic and the Mango widow is uncanny to me. Almost all the leafs are curled and in the same locations off the main lead. Makes me thing the mums the same and this Dad is also recessive alowing the rest to shine through


1766171397492.pngScreenshot 2025-12-19 at 20.29.18.png
This is supposed to be so the internet says a NL#5xC but the catalouge says different, the lineage is put the opposite way round and it isn't listed in the catalouge as available to buy ;)
 
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Mate Dave said:
The first Haze cup winner you would have to ask the Guys that were at the event but there is no 88 catalouge a revised 87 is what there is, the Haze to win the first cup was a female haze crossed to a male Early Pearl/Skunk#1./NL#5 so the descriptions read.

Aparently this was Haze 'B' Nev says in his messages that is was something he made hash from and didn't keep a clone of and regretted it.

Steve Hagar says he was smoking this at the first cups infront of Rob and Dave and they didn't have haze hash then, I don't know how truthfull any of this old school is.

It's in the catalouge and NL Haze isn't. Hope that helps.


View attachment 108359
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1000014530.jpg
Above : Black Haze (Clone) from MOneYMiKe of ICmag forums
Same clone as JJ NYC from Top Dawg Seeds


1000014533.png

If we compare the two plants in the two respective pics, we can see the striking similarities (falling leaves and shape of buds, for example) and deduce that, in fact, the famous Black Haze clone (also known as Cuban Black Haze, NYC Haze, Uptown Haze, Piff, Church...) comes from this Haze B × EPSK1/NL5 and not from NL5/Haze A as many believe.

@Mate Dave :
Thank you for the sources.👍
 
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