The origins of Haze

[coop]

http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/3-daily-news/6556-owsley-talks-about-marijuana.html

Remembering Owsley "Bear" Stanley | Grateful Dead

someone posted this last week

 

[Unclepeter]

Just for clarity in regards to Owlsey,

owsley stanley says:
October 21, 2007 at 9:13 pm

This whole ‘purple haze’ thing is nonsense. I have no idea what Jimi meant by the line, nor when he wrote it, but i do know the acid at Monterey was not it.

We called the purple acid tabs pressed specially to be given away at the Monterey Pop Festival: “Monterey Purple”. Jimi did seem to enjoy it- he jammed all night long in the long shed after I was able to organise a guitar and restrung it for him…

I cannot speak of acid today, but in our time, acid of this quality is not the kind of thing which would attract the term ‘haze’. To call it that would have been misleading. it was CLARITY- squared.

History, like all the past (and future) ‘exists’ only in the mind.

Only the present exists.

owsley stanley says:
October 21, 2007 at 9:41 pm

One more myth needs busting.

I NEVER put doses on paper, it is no good for the purpose- it rapidly and unpredictably destroys the activity. I abhor the practice.

Thus, there was never any ‘bear blotter’. My material was first put up in caps and later, in tabs. Other than colours -white, blue or purple, no special markings of any kind were ever used on doses.

The little bears we all know and love are a bit of original art by Bob Thomas, based on a traditional cast-typeface widgit found in certain fonts ( I have the original lead piece). They are marching around in a circle on the back cover-art for Bear’s Choice album.

NB- Marching, NOT dancing.

 

[bigherb]

As for anyone (if I got this right) implying that Original Haze clones from 1969 are used, and alive, that is plain insane, there are no Cannabis clones from 1969, that is for sure. But maybe he meant seeds from 1969? And not grown until the 80's? To be honest I do not know, except the only Original Haze seeds sold prior to the 80's were mine, That I made after 1976. One way or another something is not correct about the 1969 date, and that is what you are going on. As far as I know all Nevilles work with Haze was from Original Haze he got from me, thats what he told me anyway, back in the 80's.

-SamS

No question sams has given contradictory info But

Take it how you wish but i believe this line in bold above ,Should explain the MNs haze stock is not from 69



On the note of purple haze an its effects

To be honest the purple Hazes were maybe stronger but not as clear or as up and high. I liked the lime greens with maybe a bit of Thai blood. I do remember a med dark purp Haze that tasted just like root beer, amazing. I also had a Kerala that tasted just like Vics Metholated it was Camphor for sure, strong as hell but not as clear as I like.
I grew mex seeds from a bag of weed in 1965.

-SamS

Bushy

But of course I wouldn't turn my nose up at a purple Colombian, just not sure that's what the purple in the Haze mix was

I think these post below will clear that up

Purple Haze was Original Haze with Columbian bloodlines.

-SamS

It had several Colombian lines like Santa Marta Gold, Wacky weed.
You must remember that Purple colors can be induced in some clones by cold, while other lines turn purple regardless of temps.

-SamS

JACK HAIRY

why were the haze brothers, or whoever was growing haze, impressed with skunk 1?
seems haze was so good, skunk 1 should have been garbage to them. even if it could yeild well and finish fast. who cares about that when its quality your after. shows us what the haze brothers were after.

It clearly seems the situation was not being impressed but what was nescessary ,Below sam gives us post which indicate what many have said that the inbreeding after many years has caused the haze to not produce as she once did such as yield an low numbers of keepers ,Add in the fact the original growers were just that not breeders and you can understand .As he said he tried to save the line if inbreeding wasnt an issue why would it need saving .

I did have a few friends that only sold Original Haze from the two Haze growers and they did move a lot, a real lot, Lb's or more every week, if it was available.

Sams post

I dont believe that the haze was a low producing plant in the 70's especially considering it was grown commercially .Sams has never spoke of low yielding plants grown in the cruz n i believe will state the opposite

I know I always selected for large calyxs with Original Haze, and it was not so hard as OHaze has big calyxs anyway.

Yes I introduced California Orange.

-SamS

I have not worked Original Haze as much as tried to save it, I collected as much seed as I could in the early 70's grew them and did free pollinations and did minimal selection to ensure I saved as many genes as I could. That was in the 70's & 80's now I have clones for the last 20 years. My O Haze is not done being worked on that is why I tell people to use it as breeding materials.

-SamS

Remember I suggest real Original Haze for breeding, not commercial crops, you may be lucky and find a real keeper for production, but the odds are low. Just try and cross the best you find X your favorite varieties, and you will find lots of keepers.

-SamS

interesting note

the red sap has been spoke of by few as being a trait of the Ohaze


quoted bluebeard

Yep, the red sap is supposedly why the Colombians called it Punto Rojo, and have seen it in the finer more pure leaning Punto Rojo's so I think it could be true. Possibly a sign, that perhaps a few different types of colombians were used by the bros in the haze's creation

quoted chamba

Along with lots of strains, landraces and varieties, I've grown hundreds of Thai ganja plants from seed sourced in Thailand myself and have never noticed red sap...as a matter of fact I don't remember that I've never seen this red sap trait in any of the plants I've grown

1luvbigherb

 

[joshuahazen]

Josh


I appreciate the honesty as to your opinion/experience

I'll let it rest as for the opinions of Nevil giving face/fame to the haze/Sams ,were all Mns family and Damn proud of it but i dont agree on the subject much .Sams changed the dutch scene when he brought the cali genetics to holland which makes up 70 % or more of the availble seed stock on the market today.Id imagine if another upcoming breeder were given the same opportunity to purchase the haze stock history would not be much different





Since were being soo open minded

lets not forget the fact that CC sams haze hybrids have been given high esteem by Some very respected growers ,add to the fact there are many reported similiar traits to MNS haze hybrids .I just find it hard to believe Sams would sell All/his best stock to Nevil an not keep any for himself.

If were still being open minded

Now with the comparison of the Posi stock and Nevilles haze ,Dont forget the mention of the burning bush ancestor .If Nevil's stock had anything to do with burning bush than it would make sense there are extreme phenos becaz it was as SAMS describes a original haze with a strong thai influence .Also remember there was a thai haze from Sams stock .Now keep in mind the mention of the mns parents expressing thai n colombian phenos ....





...1luvbigherb

Hi Bigherb,

First of all I don't think he would have found another breeder that would have paid $2000 for seeds that probably weren't going to sprout.

But if he had, and had sold them to somebody besides Nevil, I think history would be very different regarding haze.
Nevil was the man who started sending seeds to USA and all over the world, another breeder would not have sent those seeds all over the world, hence there would not have been the world wide Craze over Haze, that we see today. It was Nevil who made history. Sam S helped him do that when he sold Nevil the superior genetics.


I would postulate, that if Sam S had sold those Haze Genetics to someone else, Nevil would have found some other superior sativa to hybridize with, and that would have become the Craze instead. And the world would be a very different place

Lets not forget that before Nevil's hybrids, Sam S did not think too much of the Haze. It was not Sam S's best stock as you are saying, it was Stock that Sam S. had acquired from another breeder. His opinion of it was that although it was bomb, it just wasn't practical. And I am not saying that Sam S sold all of his old stock to Nevil, I am saying that even if he only sold half of his seeds to Nevil, there is still a very good chance that Sam S would not have been able to get any of them to germinate. Everybody agrees that Nevil was lucky to even get seven seeds to sprout.

I am sure Sam S's Skunk Haze hybrids are just great, but they are not pure haze. We all know how skunk dominates everything.
The only Skunk Haze I ever tried was SSH and SH, great stuff, but not hazey at all compared to NL5hz.

The fact that there is no pure haze out there is proof enough of what really happened.


You can listen to the rhetoric, and parrot the rhetoric all you want but it won't change the truth.

Listen to whoever you want, the truth is Posi Haze isn't pure.

What purportedly pure haze is there? Tom Hill's Haze? People can say whatever they want but the phenos never lie.

Tom Hill Haze is supposed to come from 95/96 Posi stock to be more precise.
I use to hang a lot at Posi exactly during those days as can attest the catalog of 96 that I posted previously.
I never saw Original Haze seeds for sale there, only their Haze and Purple Haze.
I could ask questions to Tom to be assured that he really bought his Haze there.
For that I would need to have Tom online here.
Anyways when I look at the photos of his Haze I can clearly see that it is not 100% Haze.

Peace.

K.

British Hempire:

My mistake, I got the year wrong.

I agree that from the pics I've seen, I suspect Tom's Haze isn't a pure Haze, as I mentioned, people have had 12 week chunky budded plants.

ElRubio posted this pic of a Tom Hill Haze at 56 days of 12/12 at icmag last week, when I saw it I thought, hmm, I've never seen a pure sativa that looked that developed at 56 days, I've grown 3 packs of Seedsman Haze and at 56 days of 12/12 from seed only one had shown sex.

 

[bigherb]

Josh

when you mention Tom hills haze i get awarm fuzzy feeling ,i cant help but think of a wonderful woman who grows some amazing plants .You might recall her name hazylady.

I invite you to look at her thread ,THH #31 #33 #29


Silver, Blue and Tom Hills too! - The united colours of Haze - Page 16 - International Cannagraphic Magazine Forums


Im not here to change opinions nor argue ,But put forth info for others to make there decision as you have yours (nl5hz is end all be all).NO reason to get touchy .when you say things that shouldnt be said it shows your character .I respectfully said i find your post hard to swallow .Not did you get your info from teens or folk who just moved from texas ,though thats how i really felt


There has been some post an points made which i respectfully responded to an quoted that are from the horses mouth Sams aswell as others about current debates ,Such as the purple haze .

A recent post on Thunk

read some comments here on this theme, from tom hill too.. and i say you one thing, brothers and sisters... i grew thaihazeskunk1 from Sam the Skunkman... and nobody will say me that i didnt experience inscense, deep church smoke with catpiss tones
and that it was not spicy, peppery... no way

1luvbigherb

 

[Unclepeter]

The fact that there is no pure haze out there is proof enough of what really happened.


You can listen to the rhetoric, and parrot the rhetoric all you want but it won't change the truth.

Listen to whoever you want, the truth is Posi Haze isn't pure.

What purportedly pure haze is there? Tom Hill's Haze? People can say whatever they want but the phenos never lie.

And you know the truth? NO you don't so you shouldn't sprout off IMO, I'd like to know what exactly a pure haze is Josh? SamS has stated, he did no real work with it other than to preserve it...

its pure for being a narrow/thin leaf plant but thats it.... I'd like to know what you imply by pure? pure as in from the same stock as SamS? did Nevil work the line at all? (i'm not fam to what breeding was done for the NL/Hz nev haze was a clone used?)..

didn't SamS supply seedsman? the fact to me is original haze is a sat/thin/narrow leaf plant, nevilles haze is not IMO.

you seem to dog on Tom Hills haze quite a bit.. even moaning about the 5 to 10 % ratio etc... As far as i'm aware the likes of homegrown fantaseeds got their stock from Wernard/posi too... you gonna dog them too?

 

[Bubbla]

The fact that we're even discussing the Origins of Haze tells me that no one single person was directly responsible for it & otherwise they would definately let us know about it.

I've always believed Haze to be multiple crosses of the finest Sativas around back then, just like all great Sativas. Haze has been worked & re worked so many times i'd be amazed if anyone could find out the true origins of it. Then add different breeders stories into the mix & the whole thing becomes impossible to navigate your way through

Peace

B

 

[deran]

Below sam gives us post which indicate what many have said that the inbreeding after many years has caused the haze to not produce as she once did such as yield an low numbers of keepers ,Add in the fact the original growers were just that not breeders and you can understand .As he said he tried to save the line if inbreeding wasnt an issue why would it need saving .

sams small dick induced low self esteem bullshit

grow a haze, be surprised by potency and yield ... still today

that leaves me asking ... why do so many ppl today grow autos or even worse femd autos ...
answer: the same reason those "haze-kids" switched to skunk#1 back then, were they the real brothers, they would have been utterly dumb not continuing that cash cow - leaves me with the impression, that they didnt even grow there own stuff ...

strange huh ?

 

[joshuahazen]

Josh

when you mention Tom hills haze i get awarm fuzzy feeling ,i cant help but think of a wonderful woman who grows some amazing plants .You might recall her name hazylady.

I invite you to look at her thread ,THH #31 #33 #29


Silver, Blue and Tom Hills too! - The united colours of Haze - Page 16 - International Cannagraphic Magazine Forums


Im not here to change opinions nor argue ,But put forth info for others to make there decision as you have yours (nl5hz is end all be all).NO reason to get touchy .when you say things that shouldnt be said it shows your character .I respectfully said i find your post hard to swallow .Not did you get your info from teens or folk who just moved from texas ,though thats how i really felt


There has been some post an points made which i respectfully responded to an quoted that are from the horses mouth Sams aswell as others about current debates ,Such as the purple haze .

A recent post on Thunk




1luvbigherb

Hi Bigherb,
With all due respect,

I am not getting touchy. It is you who are saying things that shouldn't be said:

Bigherb:
".Id imagine if another upcoming breeder were given the same opportunity to purchase the haze stock history would not be much different"

As usual you are attempting to downplay and belittle Nevil's Role in Haze History.

As Usual Hazy Lady offers proof that there are some great pheno's to be found in Tom Hill's Haze. Thanks for the link.
If you will look at the beautiful pic of THHaze #33 I think you will see that it is another fine example of what I am talking about. At 42 days it looks very mature to me, I believe I can even see the skunk structure hiding in there.

I will tell you right now, that My NL5 Haze which was 50% pure haze did not look that mature at 42 days.

If you will look at my post you will see that I have not said anything bad about THH or Sam S's Skunk haze.

In fact what I said was:
Joshuahazen:
"I am sure Sam S's Skunk Haze hybrids are just great, but they are not pure haze"

You are the one who is getting touchy, and flinging insults, suggesting I am a teenager or whatnot. My friend is in his seventies by the way, and he is just barely old enough to be my father.

Why do my statements offend you so much?

The truth hurts Bigherb, especially when you are living a lie. In the end though once you admit it, the truth can only set you free my friend. Why don't you just own up?

 

[feral]

As long as money and ego's are involved the truth will never be known. point blank.

 

[Bubbla]

My opinion is that if it weren't for Nevil, Haze may have been lost. In fact Nevil has done more for Haze than anyone else i can think of. That's not me kissing arse, just stating a fact because he has worked with it longer than any other breeder I can think of.

 

[joshuahazen]

And you know the truth? NO you don't so you shouldn't sprout off IMO, I'd like to know what exactly a pure haze is Josh? SamS has stated, he did no real work with it other than to preserve it...

its pure for being a narrow/thin leaf plant but thats it.... I'd like to know what you imply by pure? pure as in from the same stock as SamS? did Nevil work the line at all? (i'm not fam to what breeding was done for the NL/Hz nev haze was a clone used?)..

didn't SamS supply seedsman? the fact to me is original haze is a sat/thin/narrow leaf plant, nevilles haze is not IMO.

you seem to dog on Tom Hills haze quite a bit.. even moaning about the 5 to 10 % ratio etc... As far as i'm aware the likes of homegrown fantaseeds got their stock from Wernard/posi too... you gonna dog them too?

It's folks like Tom Hill and Bigherb that are trying to suggest that THH is "Original Haze" and pure, and that this somehow makes it better than Seedbank Haze.

I am merely refuting this flawed perception. I am defending Seedbank Haze that is all. It's like someone attacks you, you defend yourself, and when you do, they cry foul.

I don't dog on Tom Hill's Haze, I am just quoting Tom when I say it is 95% hay.

I believe the adjective I chose to describe the THH pheno's I have seen was "Beautiful".

http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/6-breede...2-~cannabis-cross-pollinated-species~-26.html


I think Tom should be a bit more straight forward about his haze that is all, and instead of referring to it as Original Haze, He should refer to it as Positronics Haze, or Positronics Original Haze.

You know you could try to sell me a shepherd retriever cross as a pure shepherd, and I would not have to be an expert to tell you the dog was not pure, even though it might be a good dog.

The same thing goes for THH.

You Folks are really rich you know that? You get so insulted when I suggest that these strains are not pure haze, and you guys act like you are the ones who bred it. It is downright bizarre. Like its your religion or something. Well I suppose faith knows no bounds.

The term "pure Haze" is a bit of an oxymoron anyway, as Haze is a basically unknown extreme polyhybrid sativa. The only thing we can really be sure about is that it is "pure" sativa.

And By the way, my NL5hz, which was 50% haze, also had thinner leaves then most of those plants pictured from Hazy Lady.

 

[Unclepeter]

It's folks like Tom Hill and Bigherb that are trying to suggest that THH is "Original Haze" and pure, and that this somehow makes it better than Seedbank Haze.

Original Haze was what it was called, as far as i'm aware with TomHills haze he has not done much selection other than for himself, he has maintained it though thru years of dedication

Haze is a four-way hybrid of some of the finest narrow-leaf tropicals that the world has ever known (Mexico, Colombia, S. India, Thailand), so the legend goes.

A long flowering plant that gives wispy yields of the highest quality. This line is out of Sam Skunkmans stock by way of Positronics seeds ("Original Haze") circa mid 1990's.
It does not breed true for its intoxicating properties, however the best examples (approx 5%) are electrifyingly cerebral.
For decades, words have utterly failed to fully capture the intensity of effect that a good example of Haze can give - it is absolutely in a league of its own and must be experienced

thats his description so I don't see where the problem comes from? I doubt I'll be seeing broadleaf specimans in it...

 

[Unclepeter]

You Folks are really rich you know that? You get so insulted when I suggest that these strains are not pure haze, and you guys act like you are the ones who bred it. It is downright bizarre. Like its your religion or something. Well I suppose faith knows no bounds

pot, kettle etc anyway one things for sure no Northern lights in their stock..... only narrow leaf plants, unless you suggest Wernard, TH, SamS are lying?

 

[deran]

It does not breed true for its intoxicating properties

hows that possible ? as it came past f6 across the pond ?

so f1 to f5 were selected for non intoxicating properties ?


peter, they lie, each one of them, they must, its their living

 

[bigwity]

do any of you guys have any haze cuts id love to talk to you if you have please pm me i hold a massive strain list.

 

[bigwity]

heres a old school skunk cut i have its real sativa dom.

 

[coop]

stoner science.

cannabis is a magical plant that follows all its own laws of nature.

 

[bushweed]

Enlightening post that puts the Haze obsession into perspective...

Hi, I am 55 years old and been growing 30 years with 70% of that being pure landrace sativas, any "haze" I can get my hands on and haze or sativa hybrids. I grew out Haze varieties as they became available from seedbanks.... and there was a LOT of them in the old days... Haze #1 thru Haze #19 at least plus all the seedbank variations.

Firstly, Haze is nowhere near the most potent sativas I have grown. Certain landrace sativas (especially some Indonesian, Vietnam and Thai) leave Haze for dead... BUT.... as others have said... you have to grow 50 plants to find the killer one. The exception is probably some Indonesian/Sumatran landrace where every plant is ridiculously potent but tastes really, really harsh.

In my neck of the woods the most consistently potent strain was always Thai Stick (in it's various forms over 10 years) and Haze was always considered a wannabe .... more an experiment in trying to breed a sativa that will finish indoors.

Secondly, the "Haze" offered by seedbanks has changed dramatically over the years. The original seeds used to grow enormous plants that were virtually unmanageable and you could easily see the phenotypes of giant Columbian and Thai trees. These days many of the so called Haze grows into spindly weak insipid looking plants.... probably through inbreeding.

Thirdly, I breed plants and one of the worst possible things you can do as a breeder is to inbreed a line too far. Eventually you get 75% hermies, sterility and mutations, plus total loss of vigour and disease resistance. Loss of genetic diversity is a dead end street. So to advertise that a line has "been inbred since blah, blah..." as though it is a good thing.... makes no sense at all. The number one original selling point of Haze genetics was the enormous genetic diversity supposedly in the Haze line.

If Haze really is so wonderful (I've yet to experience this) then the obvious thing to do is to simply recreate the breeding by crossing hand picked sativas from Thailand, India and Columbia. This is what I've been doing for years... and am still doing...

The fact remains that no matter what Haze type line I create, or no matter what super duper Dutch strain I've grown.... none has ever been as potent as some little scrubby landrace sativa that has popped up every now and then over the years.

All the OT Haze and Tom Hill Haze plants that I have seen in photos look exactly like inbred original landrace pure Thai lines.

I'm not saying anybody is wrong. I'm not saying Haze isn't the strongest. I'm just stating my own experiences to date. I still grow Hazes as they become available.... just in case there is a killer Haze out there that I haven't discovered yet...

scrubdog

Another smart arse Australian apparently.

 

[joshuahazen]

LOL Bushweed,

Scrubdog....

That is too funny, the strongest shit I have ever smoked is a Malawi Landrace, and it was much stronger than any Haze I have ever smoked.

My Seedbank NL5hz and some of her select ancestors remain my favorite however, and the strongest haze I have ever smoked by far.

Can't wait to get my hands on some Neville's Haze.