MangoHz

[redeye24/7]

Beautiful Flowers Triple A

Amazing pics of some damn frosty dank buds mate peace & have a Great New Year

 

[phoenix]

wow,exceptiona;l shots and growing m8.
cant wait to crack my nevs x mango now,you really wet my appetite.
gonna be looking for a mango pheno aswell as a nevs now!

 

[Buddhadreams]

Hi L33t,

I have a question for you, in case you don't mind

When you've grown the Mango Haze did you noticed any particular smells on the steams? Where they fruity or hazy?

Thanks for your time in advance.

 

[holmes]

WOW!

slightly off topic because i was studying your macros, what causes the trichomes to grow long and build a ball at the end like that?

 

[da ghost]

WOW!

slightly off topic because i was studying your macros, what causes the trichomes to grow long and build a ball at the end like that?

GOD~S just how there built man Some time you get short stalks and some times you get ones with no heads ~usaully the no heads not very good or potent

 

[holmes]

the work of the almighty huh, hmmmmmm..........there must be a scientific explanation

 

[Eddiesaw]

l33t your bud shots always seem to leave me drolling.. your mango and nev's are some of the best i've seen. Absolutly gorgeous!!!

 

[Grover Sativa]

Hey L33t, How is it going?

Everyone seems to love your plants and the photos are superb. The buds are resinated to hell and look lovely. Well done.

But at risk of being a pariah (which I think I already am...) your plants look a little lanky and the buds are quite wispy.

Actually your plants are lanky and your buds are wispy. Yet you have a million views and two thousand growers falling over themselves to congratulate you, so either I am just plain wrong (it has been known) or maybe they are SUPPOSED to be like this (Eddie, above, seems to think that your mango is amongst the best he's ever seen...)

My Mango Haze plants are much stockier. In fact, I have 1 or 2 full on indica (NL) phenos. Even my haze dominant plants have lovely, sturdy branches. They are as wide as they are tall and at just a week or two into flowering proper, I can already tell that my buds will be infinitely denser than the ones photo'd here.

Why?

What vintage are your seeds? Has Shanti changed the pedigree to make them more indica?

Do you think that my Mango Haze seeds are somehow more indica than yours? Did you have your seeds for a while before planting them? My batch are pretty well new....

Its either that or our seeds are identical but you stressed the roots in small pots. What size pots did you use?

I am prepared for an onslaught but what the hey - I say it as I see it, like always. It could very well be that your pedigree is more sativa than mine for some reason or other and your pots are fine.

I hope your not offended. Personally, I think your pots are too small. No-one else has commented on them, though...

What's your view?


Grover

PS Photography really is superb and those resin glands are wonderful to see.

 

[L33t]

Hi everyone

hi Grower Sativa

thank you for dropping by , let me try try to answer your Qs

Sativa dominant hybrids are known for airy bud growth , MH itself is a 50% haze line and has phenos that grow airy bud no matter what. There are others that grow very hard nugs so there is variety and it all depends on selection. My MH plants did grow 'lanky' and with kinda 'wispy' buds but its not only due to genetics , many factors plaedy a role here.

First of all , zero veg time. I flowered my MH from seed straight with 11/13 (light/dark) lighting regime as I wanted to finish them as soon as possible. I like to grow this way when I'm testing a new line as it allows me to get a rough idea about the plant in the shortest amount of time. It allows for high plant nubers and so I can test out as many phenos as possible which is also important. Flowering from seed though..usually results in smaller plants and generally they produce less compact buds compared to plants that received veg time. Structure is also greatly affected when flowering from seed. Usually little or zero veg time results in a less branchy plant that mainly focuses on the main cola.

Another main reason my MH didnt perform to their max was that while I was running them I had to go abroad and decided to leave them with just a low wattage cfl light for 10 days. Unfortunatelly that was during their pre/flowering stretch period and that is the most crucial period, the poor lighting during those 10 days resulted in stalled growth and the plants basically lost their vigor and ended up small. Security goes first and I wouldn't want to leave the room with HIDs on while away abroad..so it was a decision I had to take and the lost performance and yield was something I had to deal with.

Regarding pots , I used 10 liter pots as their finals filled with soil/coco/perlite mix. I could have used bigger pots for better yields per plant but I like the 10liter ones as I can use many plants per light with em. I 've yielded up to 3 oz per plant in such pots , it was with SSH , again same growing style and setup , flowering from seed, so I know plants in this room-system can perform very well and yield over 100g of dry bud even with zero veg time in 10liter pots. Best results I ve got so far was over 0.8g/w per 3 months with zero veg time using a 50% haze hybrid.

Btw the seeds where from Shanti and I think these were made a couple years before I grew em out so not old stock really.

l33t

 

[Grover Sativa]

hey L33t

Thanks for the reply and thanks for being honest. Some people don't like direct questions, the way I ask them, whilst others only seem interested in rubbing each others egos up. For me, if I think I can learn from someone, I'll come out and ask questions. If I think someone is doing something wrong, I usually tell them!

Basically what you are saying is that you like to squeeze in as many females as you can for selective purposes. Fair enough. This way you get to see more phenotypic variation. No problems with that.

I also like to choose from as many females as possible, especially from a good genetic like the Mango Haze. At the moment I have maybe 12 females to choose from, so far. (There are also a few unsexed plants sitting in the mother room waiting their turn...) So I should have a great selection.

I too flower from seed for selection, for speed, like yourself, but do give a little veg time. I like to see the finished shape of the plant. The branch structure, etc. Its all part of the selection process, for me anyway. I never realised that the buds end up slightly fluffier. I suppose if you haven't vegged then the seedling isn't quite mature yet. I still suspect small pots have slightly impaired your branch structure and lessened your plants potential. 10 litres is way too small for my liking, anyway! There is no doubt you have stressed the roots (but as you say, there was a reason for it.)

What's also interesting is that Cola Bro said that he thought the bud size was down to light intensity and that is exactly what you have confirmed (due to security reasons - again more than fair enough...)

Its interesting to chat to the people about their styles of grow.I like to grow my plants big. I can fit 3 large sativas under a 600w lights (just) with 50litre pots. Its not uncommon to weigh the dry bud well in excess of say ten ounces per plant (and I mean well in excess). 0.8 g per watt is about 17 ounces for a 600watt light. Not bad for a 50% haze at all.
I think that if you could do better with any plant then it would be with SSH, especially with 12 weeks to play with. I'm not going to shoot my mouth off about what I could get as I would probably end up eating my words but I will say that I think YOU could get more!!

The one limiting factor might be vertical room size. Big plants equals BIG yields but you need height. A lot of height. I am lucky to have that and like to see big plants growing to their potential (check out my uk greenhouse thread for photos...). Is your height limited?

It is also interesting that some growers on this site seem pleased with, say, 2ounces on an outdoor plant when I get maybe ten times that..


The genetic potential for a SSH with just say 4/5 weeks of veg is huge. I mean HUGE. Easy 20 ounces, hydroponically, in skilled hands, with a 1000w HPS. If you veg 1 set of cuts whilst flowering another then you have up to 12 weeks to veg for... Giving them some grow shouldn't be a problem.

What I will say about the Mango I have is that I wasn't expecting to see so much indica. I have grown many a sativa and expected more of the same from MH (especially seeing the photos on this website's seed list...) but I have a lot more indica than I expected in the mix and, as I said, I have one really Northern Lights affair. No stretch at all. You honestly wouldn't believe it came from a Mango Haze packet. Were you aware of this pheno? Did you see it with your selection? I would post photos but its not in my habit as far as indoor growing is concerned....

As I say, I appreciate your candour. You seem like a nice guy and you certainly seem to know what you are talking about RE growing
You seem to have green fingers and I would like to see a man of your skills really testing the genetic potential of a plant like the Mango Haze.
Yes, the buds look awesome and you certainly have a lot of fans...The photography skills really are cool as well. I have to hand it to you there.
Still, I don't think we are looking at the limits of genetic potential with the Mango Haze here. I want to see you get 20 ounces from a plant. Do you think it is possible?

Whatever the case, I hope you have good luck


Grover

 

[jaybutta]

Commercial vs. Connoisseur

I am not sure what maximizing yield has to do with discovering the genetic potential within a particular strain...very good exchange of ideas otherwise...jay

 

[Grover Sativa]

Hey Jay,

Well, I'm not a commercialist, but each strain has the potential within it for x dry weight of herb per plant or y dry weight of herb per watt in your garden.

Which is the better method? Single plants grown to maximise yield per plant or sea of green to maximise yield per space?

L33t can push 0.8 g per watt (which, to be fair, is a great yield) with sea of green but I was wondering if he could do better with the specimin plant method...Each of us has adapted our growing technique according to practicalities and our own experiences and I wonder if I would do better trying L33t's or he mine...It's fascinating stuff to me, really!

I would prefer to maximise the taste and strength rather than yield, but would REALLY want to get all 3 as high as possible (thus getting me as high as possible, too!)

Anyway, I hope your well and welcome any contribution (or even criticism)


Take care all

Grover

 

[L33t]

Hi Grower Sativa,

I agree some people don't like any criticism when it comes to their growing but I think when someone posts his grows online he has to expect comments otherwise whats the purpose of these boards and posting in them? As long as all is civil all is good . I always appreciate a comment that leaves me thinking and helps me become better at what I do , so your input is much welcome. First of all let me say I never actually went for max yields, I have other priorities such as trying as many seedplants from different lines. I want to have variation in the smoke so all the different phenos are nice to sample while looking for keepers. I grow a lot from seed and less with clones as I try to grow a lot of phenos from new lines but running many seedplants instead of clone/s indoors means there is impact on yields. With a high yielding selected keeper plant you can get a lot more bud than from when randorm seedplants. So you see that its easy to improve yields but does it take you where you want . Regarding your MH selection, I recommend you run the best plants again from clones then eliminate what you think is not up to your standards and when the plants are perfectly dialed in you can easily get a great yield but this needs some time as she is not the easiest plant to grow , like with the case of all of the 1/2 and 3/4 haze hybrids.With a bit of experience though with a selected high performance keeper plant one can easily get very high yields with these genetics , its not Critical Mass but the heavy yielding phenos of 50% haze hybrids can certainly be considered as top quality commercial plants. These are not as hazy expressive though so its all down what you want to do.

I never realised that the buds end up slightly fluffier. I suppose if you haven't vegged then the seedling isn't quite mature yet. I still suspect small pots have slightly impaired your branch structure and lessened your plants potential. 10 litres is way too small for my liking, anyway! There is no doubt you have stressed the roots (but as you say, there was a reason for it.)

Plants that are flowered from seed certainly produce less compact and smaller buds compared to vegged plants and are less branchy especially if plants are planted tightly but there is no quality/potency loss whatsoever. I don't agree the roots get stressed really in the small pots , as long as they don't get root bound or the plants start to slow down or show any other noticeable signs of stress plants are fine. Restricted rootspace means limiting things as it keeps the plant small by not allowing a lot of room for the roots to move n grow in , but they are only growing 'tighter' and as long there is room , oxygen and food the plants will not be stressed. You are only controlling its metabolism and basically keeping the growth rates down , its similar to growing a plant under very low wattage and with little nutes , like keeping a mum , you are only giving the plant less so it stays short and grows the way you want. By doing things right you are only controlling and limiting things for your benefit without affecting the growth rates and health of the plant and lots of sativa growers like to grow their plants this way. Of course if plants are left in the small pot for too long they will suffocate themselves. But if you make sure you transplant on time , plants won't get stressed in small pots.As a side note I would like to mention that with zero veg time (or a week max) plants can finish as soon as possible and by limiting the pot size before and during the stretch period the grower can control better the stretch. Less yields per individual (easily solved by using more plants) , but you get more control. By the way small pots also affect flowering times indoors and plants with root restriction finish earlier and also go into flowering easier and more fast as well , so keep that in mind as root restriction is a powerful 'tool' to the indoor sativa grower who wants to harvest fast nice and ripe those late plants. Indoors a seedplant that takes over 15weeks to finish from seed (flowered straight from seed) can be finished within 12weeks if left in small pots till stretch is over. So you can save few weeks time with this method and after the stretch period stops you can still transplant to bigger pots and still maximize the yield per plant . But for all this to work properly restriction should be done in quite small pots , and using 2-3liter pots from day 1 from seed till day 30-35 or so , is roughly what has worked for me and gave the best results as far as root restriction goes for stretch/size/flowering times control goes..

As for performance , I believe the MH can be as good as the SSH , maybe its slightly less yielding as I ve never seen with MH as dense colas as I ve seen from the SSH , but they are pretty similar. The Mango I grew had a fair indica expression early on meaning it was less like the Nevilles Haze and more similar to SSH and other 60/40 sat-ind hybrids. By the way don't jump to conclusions with your plants as its really early to tell and while these can veg somewhat like an indica with somewhat broad leaves etc during the bud cycle the sativa side shows and the plant grows and flowers more like a sativa dominant hybrid with some growing very hazy like quite like a pure sat and some more towards the indica side. You should know a lot more about the different phenos during the first weeks of flowering so its an interesting and good time for keeping notes if you're into that sort of thing. One thing to remember when judging plants by their looks is that a seedplant grows different to a clone and plants that are flowered from seed or with little veg time dont look the same as if they were vegged for a long time.Outdoors the same plant will look different to same one indoors , I think its hard to tell before actually flowering the plants.

The one limiting factor might be vertical room size. Big plants equals BIG yields but you need height. A lot of height. I am lucky to have that and like to see big plants growing to their potential (check out my uk greenhouse thread for photos...). Is your height limited?

I like to grow with different styles and usually don't have a height restriction but I do try to keep plants under 5ft when it comes to 600watters. The growing style I finally go with depends on strain , some lines don't work well with say SOG or SCROG , some may be ideal for flowering from seed while others do need some veg time to give a descent return, ..but generally speaking all plants can produce great yields with most growing styles in the hands of a good grower who has mastered his medium n grow style. You can see 2 different gardens that run same line/clone , one with a tall tree grow and the other with

as I said, I have one really Northern Lights affair. No stretch at all. You honestly wouldn't believe it came from a Mango Haze packet. Were you aware of this pheno?

Yes I did come across a short NL/Haze pheno. It stayed very very short , shortest of all actually and although it was a plant that started budding fast it took its time to finish turned out to be very haze expressive , bud structure smell taste and high were really hazy. It had a strong haze- metallic / fuely flavor and was great smoke. Really special plant not the fastest but not the slowest either. I had a similar short yet hazy NL/Hz pheno in the SSH and these are great plants if you want a plant with minimum stretch.

Still, I don't think we are looking at the limits of genetic potential with the Mango Haze here. I want to see you get 20 ounces from a plant. Do you think it is possible?

Well I never stated that we are looking at the limits of the genetic potential here..In terms of yield that surely is far from the limits but to be honest as far the final product quality goes its all there . I m a grower who is mostly interested in quality and not quantity I believe it was more than a successful grow and I will surely grow the Mango again in the future. As far as maturity goes, well plants that receive zero or little veg time still do mature when they flower , plants just do the veg during their first weeks and keep on with vegetative growth production while it starts to flowers at the same time. Thats why the longer we the veg the less the stretch during budding. I have not noticed any increased potency with veg/long veg times neither did I see reduced resin production with flowered-from-seed plants. All I notice is longer flowering times , different plant and leaf structure , less compact buds plus less yield per plant.

By the way hempy did grow a nice sized 19 oz Mango Haze so its surely possible to get such high yields from this plant with long veg times. But I 'm not really into vegging sativa seedplants at least for flowering them indoors, I'm more of a SOG grower myself , I go for fast harvests with high plant numbers per light . Of course to improve yields its always best to work with clones , seedplants and all the different needs of the different phenos make things really difficult when it comes to maximizing yields. Using clones from a selected mother can ensure a great harvest especially when it comes to haze hybrids where there is variation in the yields between the different phenos and some take almost twice as time as others need to yield almost half of the yield.

Which is the better method? Single plants grown to maximise yield per plant or sea of green to maximise yield per space?

Just like with all the different germination methods , there is no single best method. Many different methods can work equally good in the hands of an experienced grower.But not all methods work well with all growers so its what you find that gives the best results in your garden is what you should go with. Experimenting is the only way really.Not all strains perform equally good in all growing styles like sog , scrog etc , so it depends on the strains you have.

I would prefer to maximise the taste and strength rather than yield, but would REALLY want to get all 3 as high as possible (thus getting me as high as possible, too!)

Like they say you can't get something for nothing..and cannabis its not an exception! The best and most special plants I 've come across rarely were the best yielders of the lot or the fastest ones. So selection is the key

Good luck with the MH you have and let us know how they go

 

[Grover Sativa]

Absolutely fascinating.

You are a good man, L33t, old boy!

I will digest all this with relish!

I have a kind of backwards attitude to growing. Whereas most growers look at their plants and say 'what would make you grow more?' , I look at mine and say 'what is stopping you from growing?'

My techniques are 100% motivated by reducing stress to the plant. The less stress a plant goes through, in my opinion, the better quality the smoke and bud structure (yield aside.) I do all I can to reduce stress from planting all the way through and past harvest. I look at everything from feed temps to growing humidities, pH and EC, root stress, light intensity, basically everything I can think of...

For me it is an absolute given that a stressed plant won't perform as well. I am 100% sure of that (this is just my view, other growers think exactly the opposite sometimes, the poor fools!).

The only question here is whether a 10litre pot gives stress to a sativa's root system or not... You are convinced that, with attentive care, it will not.

I will reassess my views on this because, at least before this exchange, I was convinced that it does. To be honest I still suspect that it would but have enough respect for your views to at least think again.

I have to say that you have really fired my anticipation for that stocky NL pheno! Good on you for that!

Maybe I will try an experimental grow with the same cut in large and small pots the next time I run a Mango grow. It will be interesting to sample the finished product from both techniques (If I say so myself, my buds will take some beating. They look, smell and taste divine already. If your technique improves them I really will take my hat off to you...)

For now I am going to harvest my (HUGE and HUGE YIELDING) Skunk plant in the g/h! Thanks for the info. As I said, you are a good man.

Take Care L33t, Jay (and any other readers of this thread)

Grover

 

[L33t]

I have a kind of backwards attitude to growing. Whereas most growers look at their plants and say 'what would make you grow more?' , I look at mine and say 'what is stopping you from growing?'

Thats a good attitude to growing , but indoors one is always gonna be limiting things , be it plant and pot size or lighting etc , the plants will end up always much smaller compared to what they 'could have become' . According to you these will not have reached their genetic potential quality wise as you say , I dissagree. Also plants dont get stressed by not being grown to their 'max' size , plants can and do adapt to their environment and as long as they keep growing with good vigor and have pleanty of nutes, water and space to grow healthy , veg times dont really affect the final product quality wise and the plants are not stressed in any way only yields and structure is different. If what you suggest was true then all the plants that didn't recieve unlimited rootspace & energy sourcing are considered stressed and less good (potent/tasty etc)..this is something I dont agree with. I do understand what you wanna say though , yes if you grow the plant with the max lighting & fertilizers it can take and give unlimited rootspace , yep theoretically the plant will perform with max rates and at its best. But this does not mean that quality is increased, , as long as you grow well a plant be it 12/12 from seed or with 1 , 2 or 6 months veg , the quality of the smoke will be indistinguishable. Sativas grow in their natural environment where basically things are under 12/12 all year , you think their potential is being limited and could be improved with extra veg time? Yields maybe , but quality no as far as I m concearned.

Organisms like animals or plants have a genetic potential like you describe it but there are infinite factors that affect the way the genes are expressed , its phenotipic expression, so it is highly unlikely that you can ever get a plant to grow to its full genetic potential due to all the limiting factors be it genetic or environment related.What matters is to get a good harvest and maximize your total yields not each idividual plant yield. Many plants can work as good as few plants.But there is no quality loss with potted or small potted plants , all the growers that grow with sog or similar styles know this and thats why they use such growing methods and to have the fastest and most perpetual harvests as well. Only prob is risk due to higher plant numbers but that depends on where you are.

Outdoors one can veg for 6 months and get big sized plants but indoors and with 6 months veg , its not what really works best for most growers for a number of good reasons (like artificial lights are only efficient for couple feet from the bulb etc) of course growing trees indoors can be done. But I don't see why growing smaller plants (which is what most growers do) by limiting roots with pots and short veg time, would really stress plants. I know if you grow a plant well indoors with soil it will be same potency and taste/high as if you grow it outdoors , there will be some differences but are unnoticeable from what I 've smoked.

If your technique improves them I really will take my hat off to you...)

Try to grow a MH in a big and one in a small pot and see for yourself how things go. I never suggested it will improve in the small pots! i only said that with no veg or small pots you dont lose quality wise!

 

[Skunkha]

I know if you grow a plant well indoors with soil it will be same potency and taste/high as if you grow it outdoors , there will be some differences but are unnoticeable from what I 've smoked.

Are you absolutely sure about this? How many times have you 'run' clones both outdoors with the same 'full sun' time as indoors?

I don't believe this is true, can't prove it as I've never tried. Outdoors in full sun produces some wonderful expressed genetics that I've not really seen in indoor grown herb.

Shanti also recently mentioned the benefits from natural sunshine on plant health.

 

[L33t]

hi Skunkha,

there are some differences between indoor vs outdoor pot as I said in my previous post , more specifically the are some strains that produce noticeable differences while with some , they are almost unnoticeable. But if you grow a plant well indoors there are ways to achieve top results that many times would make it impossible for a smoker to tell which is which. From my experience indoor weed can be almost as good as outdoor weed , and many times it can even be really hard to find differences. Of course environment affects a lot plants and how genes are expressed but even the same clone in different indoor rooms seems to express bit differently so there is always some variation in different grows.No doubt natural sunlight is better for plants but I have seen top results both outdoors and indoors , in the end of the day its mostly the genetics that determine the results. Having said all that I must confess the best weed I 've smoked came from outdoor crops that btw received quite a bit of UV.There is not a perfect substitute for mimicking natural sunlight for growing plants at least for the time being, but I believe with time things will evolve and we will be able to simulate things more accurately and replicate the results of the nature.Till then the HPS and M.Halides seem to be doing the job fine. Interestingly , according to some tests indoor vs outdoor bud doesn't show measurable improvement :
"I have never found an increase of THC or any Cannabinoid by using UV light. I did try.
I do agree that outdoor Cannabis grown well seems subjectively slightly more potent then the same clone under lights. But I can not measure any improvement via my GC. In fact all of the UV treated plants were less THC then untreated identical clones grown without UV. And the UV plants weighed less, then the control plants. UV can be hard on plants."

Btw Shanti talks about motherplants and how to keep the genetics as 'intact' as possible for as long as possible , so yes sunlight is very useful as its making sure that genes in each successive clone generation are expressed like before so there are no changes or 'muting' in areas of the genetic code that define how the plant will grow and flower. Actually , I think its irresponsible for a breeder to not provide plants like his mothers and fathers with natural light at least for a while as breeding for generations under artificial lighting is not good for the genetics in the long term and surely will have an impact.

 

[southpaw]

First of all let me say, excellent work L33t. I have seen a great many wispier sativa in my day and considering this was 12/12 from seed I believe they filled out nicely .

Also, I totally agree with shanti's method for maintaining mommas and poppas. It's very reassuring that he does things the right way to properly preserve such gems.

sp

 

[Skunkha]

agree

hi Skunkha,

there are some differences between indoor vs outdoor pot as I said in my previous post , more specifically the are some strains that produce noticeable differences while with some , they are almost unnoticeable. But if you grow a plant well indoors there are ways to achieve top results that many times would make it impossible for a smoker to tell which is which. From my experience indoor weed can be almost as good as outdoor weed , and many times it can even be really hard to find differences. Of course environment affects a lot plants and how genes are expressed but even the same clone in different indoor rooms seems to express bit differently so there is always some variation in different grows.No doubt natural sunlight is better for plants but I have seen top results both outdoors and indoors , in the end of the day its mostly the genetics that determine the results. Having said all that I must confess the best weed I 've smoked came from outdoor crops that btw received quite a bit of UV.There is not a perfect substitute for mimicking natural sunlight for growing plants at least for the time being, but I believe with time things will evolve and we will be able to simulate things more accurately and replicate the results of the nature.Till then the HPS and M.Halides seem to be doing the job fine. Interestingly , according to some tests indoor vs outdoor bud doesn't show measurable improvement :
"I have never found an increase of THC or any Cannabinoid by using UV light. I did try.
I do agree that outdoor Cannabis grown well seems subjectively slightly more potent then the same clone under lights. But I can not measure any improvement via my GC. In fact all of the UV treated plants were less THC then untreated identical clones grown without UV. And the UV plants weighed less, then the control plants. UV can be hard on plants."

Btw Shanti talks about motherplants and how to keep the genetics as 'intact' as possible for as long as possible , so yes sunlight is very useful as its making sure that genes in each successive clone generation are expressed like before so there are no changes or 'muting' in areas of the genetic code that define how the plant will grow and flower. Actually , I think its irresponsible for a breeder to not provide plants like his mothers and fathers with natural light at least for a while as breeding for generations under artificial lighting is not good for the genetics in the long term and surely will have an impact.

Thanks for your reply.

Maybe I was looking too closely to Sativas. You mention 'some', which to identify plants would lean to the Sativa spectrum as those which are most influenced by natural light. Sure, indoors folks could grow them o.k., but mostly pure Sativas really shine when grown in tropical full-sun. Yes, a grow of Sativas outdoors in Britain or Holland will be about the same as growing indoors...if that is what you mean.

Indica plants seem to perform magnificently indoors, this is true...so, Sativas seem to love natural light more makes sense. At least I believe it the case.

 

[Joe King Park]

Hi Grower Sativa,

I agree some people don't like any criticism when it comes to their growing but I think when someone posts his grows online he has to expect comments otherwise whats the purpose of these boards and posting in them? As long as all is civil all is good . I always appreciate a comment that leaves me thinking and helps me become better at what I do , so your input is much welcome. First of all let me say I never actually went for max yields, I have other priorities such as trying as many seedplants from different lines. I want to have variation in the smoke so all the different phenos are nice to sample while looking for keepers. I grow a lot from seed and less with clones as I try to grow a lot of phenos from new lines but running many seedplants instead of clone/s indoors means there is impact on yields. With a high yielding selected keeper plant you can get a lot more bud than from when randorm seedplants. So you see that its easy to improve yields but does it take you where you want . Regarding your MH selection, I recommend you run the best plants again from clones then eliminate what you think is not up to your standards and when the plants are perfectly dialed in you can easily get a great yield but this needs some time as she is not the easiest plant to grow , like with the case of all of the 1/2 and 3/4 haze hybrids.With a bit of experience though with a selected high performance keeper plant one can easily get very high yields with these genetics , its not Critical Mass but the heavy yielding phenos of 50% haze hybrids can certainly be considered as top quality commercial plants. These are not as hazy expressive though so its all down what you want to do.

Plants that are flowered from seed certainly produce less compact and smaller buds compared to vegged plants and are less branchy especially if plants are planted tightly but there is no quality/potency loss whatsoever. I don't agree the roots get stressed really in the small pots , as long as they don't get root bound or the plants start to slow down or show any other noticeable signs of stress plants are fine. Restricted rootspace means limiting things as it keeps the plant small by not allowing a lot of room for the roots to move n grow in , but they are only growing 'tighter' and as long there is room , oxygen and food the plants will not be stressed. You are only controlling its metabolism and basically keeping the growth rates down , its similar to growing a plant under very low wattage and with little nutes , like keeping a mum , you are only giving the plant less so it stays short and grows the way you want. By doing things right you are only controlling and limiting things for your benefit without affecting the growth rates and health of the plant and lots of sativa growers like to grow their plants this way. Of course if plants are left in the small pot for too long they will suffocate themselves. But if you make sure you transplant on time , plants won't get stressed in small pots.As a side note I would like to mention that with zero veg time (or a week max) plants can finish as soon as possible and by limiting the pot size before and during the stretch period the grower can control better the stretch. Less yields per individual (easily solved by using more plants) , but you get more control. By the way small pots also affect flowering times indoors and plants with root restriction finish earlier and also go into flowering easier and more fast as well , so keep that in mind as root restriction is a powerful 'tool' to the indoor sativa grower who wants to harvest fast nice and ripe those late plants. Indoors a seedplant that takes over 15weeks to finish from seed (flowered straight from seed) can be finished within 12weeks if left in small pots till stretch is over. So you can save few weeks time with this method and after the stretch period stops you can still transplant to bigger pots and still maximize the yield per plant . But for all this to work properly restriction should be done in quite small pots , and using 2-3liter pots from day 1 from seed till day 30-35 or so , is roughly what has worked for me and gave the best results as far as root restriction goes for stretch/size/flowering times control goes..

As for performance , I believe the MH can be as good as the SSH , maybe its slightly less yielding as I ve never seen with MH as dense colas as I ve seen from the SSH , but they are pretty similar. The Mango I grew had a fair indica expression early on meaning it was less like the Nevilles Haze and more similar to SSH and other 60/40 sat-ind hybrids. By the way don't jump to conclusions with your plants as its really early to tell and while these can veg somewhat like an indica with somewhat broad leaves etc during the bud cycle the sativa side shows and the plant grows and flowers more like a sativa dominant hybrid with some growing very hazy like quite like a pure sat and some more towards the indica side. You should know a lot more about the different phenos during the first weeks of flowering so its an interesting and good time for keeping notes if you're into that sort of thing. One thing to remember when judging plants by their looks is that a seedplant grows different to a clone and plants that are flowered from seed or with little veg time dont look the same as if they were vegged for a long time.Outdoors the same plant will look different to same one indoors , I think its hard to tell before actually flowering the plants.

I like to grow with different styles and usually don't have a height restriction but I do try to keep plants under 5ft when it comes to 600watters. The growing style I finally go with depends on strain , some lines don't work well with say SOG or SCROG , some may be ideal for flowering from seed while others do need some veg time to give a descent return, ..but generally speaking all plants can produce great yields with most growing styles in the hands of a good grower who has mastered his medium n grow style. You can see 2 different gardens that run same line/clone , one with a tall tree grow and the other with

Yes I did come across a short NL/Haze pheno. It stayed very very short , shortest of all actually and although it was a plant that started budding fast it took its time to finish turned out to be very haze expressive , bud structure smell taste and high were really hazy. It had a strong haze- metallic / fuely flavor and was great smoke. Really special plant not the fastest but not the slowest either. I had a similar short yet hazy NL/Hz pheno in the SSH and these are great plants if you want a plant with minimum stretch.

Well I never stated that we are looking at the limits of the genetic potential here..In terms of yield that surely is far from the limits but to be honest as far the final product quality goes its all there . I m a grower who is mostly interested in quality and not quantity I believe it was more than a successful grow and I will surely grow the Mango again in the future. As far as maturity goes, well plants that receive zero or little veg time still do mature when they flower , plants just do the veg during their first weeks and keep on with vegetative growth production while it starts to flowers at the same time. Thats why the longer we the veg the less the stretch during budding. I have not noticed any increased potency with veg/long veg times neither did I see reduced resin production with flowered-from-seed plants. All I notice is longer flowering times , different plant and leaf structure , less compact buds plus less yield per plant.

By the way hempy did grow a nice sized 19 oz Mango Haze so its surely possible to get such high yields from this plant with long veg times. But I 'm not really into vegging sativa seedplants at least for flowering them indoors, I'm more of a SOG grower myself , I go for fast harvests with high plant numbers per light . Of course to improve yields its always best to work with clones , seedplants and all the different needs of the different phenos make things really difficult when it comes to maximizing yields. Using clones from a selected mother can ensure a great harvest especially when it comes to haze hybrids where there is variation in the yields between the different phenos and some take almost twice as time as others need to yield almost half of the yield.

Just like with all the different germination methods , there is no single best method. Many different methods can work equally good in the hands of an experienced grower.But not all methods work well with all growers so its what you find that gives the best results in your garden is what you should go with. Experimenting is the only way really.Not all strains perform equally good in all growing styles like sog , scrog etc , so it depends on the strains you have.

Like they say you can't get something for nothing..and cannabis its not an exception! The best and most special plants I 've come across rarely were the best yielders of the lot or the fastest ones. So selection is the key

Good luck with the MH you have and let us know how they go

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