Hey Shanti what do you think?

[MarijuanaPiranha]

So if that's the case the right formula would be:
NH x MH = NL5HzA(2)/HzC x SkHzA/5HzC122
Life's what you make it....

I understood shanti as saying the 5HzC122 was the mother plant in the nevil's mango seeds. So it would be Nevil's Haze male (NL5HzA(2)/HzC) x 5HzC122 female, right? But then Shanti says nev's haze female, so i'm confused too.

-MJP

 

[Yosemite Sam]

Just checked out the strainlist and realised that it doesn't state nevilles haze x mango haze but nevilles haze x mango (without haze).
So if it's not mango "haze" then what does the "mango" stand for?
Probably the 5hz122, in that case it's the misinterpretation of the name that's causing some confusion.
So the mango in the mango haze comes from the 5hzC122, hmmm?

 

[Cptn]

All this speculation and effort put in by multiple people trying to figure out what Shanti meant.

This happens all the time.

Shanti says "don't speculate, just ask me and I will give you answers" but more often than not the answers generate more questions.

It seems like Shanti often just does not understand the question, but that doesn't make sense given his intelligence and the straight forward nature of the questions like the one posted by the OP:

Hi Shanti

I was curious what you thought about a couple of things . . .
What can you tell us about your nevilles haze x mango haze? Was the male used a NH or MH? Did you use the 5HZ122 female or a MangoF2?

Thanks
-MJP

Then Shanti "clarifies" things by replying to someone in PM:

ive just check with shanti and the nevils haze mango is 122mango x nevils haze. so no mango haze and also matches the breakup for the strain.

cheers

I finally built a spreadsheet just to try and track all this stuff.
I bet many of the more serious members here have done the same thing.

Hours and hours of work trying to read the tea-leaves, interpret and figure out the answers we get from Shanti.

When new statements contradict the old ones, it is very frustrating.

Shanti, 5Hz122 is female.
There is no plant called "122mango" in open discussion by MNS. If you meant 5Hz122, where does the skunk in the cross come from? How did you use it as the father of this cross (since it is female)?

Are you saying that mango haze is now an IBL?

Hi All

Mango haze has both a female and a male side as it came out of an old batch of seed and both were selected by me in 2001 the same time as G13sk seed was also germinated from old seed.The MH female known as 122 selected at the same time as SSH came from a plant selection of Nevil`s around 1996-7.

All the best sb

It seems with the strain description saying that Nev's Haze Mango has 12.5% skunk.
Nev's haze has no skunk.
Mango haze is 25% skunk (on the father's side).
This suggests that the male in Nev's Mango is a Mango Haze F1 selection and not 5HzC122.

Please Shanti, give us the actual code.

 

[oneofus]

Or, as the wise man would do, order them both.

M.

Dear wise guy,

I couldn't really afford the $120 that I spent on one of the sister strains and that turned out to have such limited growth potential not one of the 30 odd seeds that I have cracked has made it to seedling stage.

And yes, I'm only talking about Shantibaba's current SSH seed stock, and yes, all 8 of the Nordle that I planted because they were mislabeled "Super Silver Haze" (which was what I wanted to run at the time) grew into very healthy plants (given the heaps of extra nitrogen which the strain really needed in coco)

There is a rumour that someone else is making Shanti's seeds for him. I wonder if this is why that rumour exists?

 

[JessE]

Hi all,
Prior to just a couple years ago, the only like terms used here regularly were Haze A and Haze C. Only in recent times has language such as 5hz122, A5 and C5 etc. caught on with regularity and has served to cause quite a bit of confusion.

For those of you who may need a quick synopsis, Haze A was a male plant which is now dead. It had a brother plant, Haze C which is alive and well within the MNS camp. Virtually every haze plant worth its weight in gold can trace its origins to these two varieties, who were in Nevil Schoenmakers hands before their acquisition in their various forms by Shanti here at MNS.

For more information:
http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/4-talk-shantibaba-mrnice/1606-origins-haze.html

Varieties such as A5 and C5 are seperate from the MNS pool, but from related stock, and were scarcely known until alot of publicity surrounding the Mr. Nice Haze A and Haze C varieties started to shape up. Then these similarly named varieties started to gain more attention at the various forums, even at one point claiming to be parental lines to the MNS camp varieties.

For more information:
http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/6-breede...6-a5-haze-cutting-mother-nevs-mango-haze.html

The first time I heard mention of the 122 was from Mr. Haze in Holland I believe, a friend of Shanti's who is apparently well connected. Later when Nevil arrived, the term 5hz122 in reference to a female cutting began to get quite a bit of use.

http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/57277-post30.html

Originally Posted by shantibaba
Hi All

I will edit the strain page and try to update the photos also, i realise there are a few misleading details now , sorry.

Mango haze has both a female and a male side as it came out of an old batch of seed and both were selected by me in 2001 the same time as G13sk seed was also germinated from old seed.The MH female known as 122 selected at the same time as SSH came from a plant selection of Nevil`s around 1996-7.

Originally posted by Cptn
Question 2:The Mango Male
The only way you could have a male version of 5Hz122 would be if during selection, you found the male 5HzC #122 to be the male TWIN of the female plant #122 from the same selection.
-OR-
If the female 5Hz122 (mother of Mango Haze) was reversed and the pollen used to fertilize the Nev's mother.

Hi Cptn,
I think there is another explanation, however Shanti is for sure much more capable of answering this in a more satisfactory and accurate manner than myself. He always has a full plate, so who knows when or if he gets around too it, but the MNS Mango Haze is definitely Shanti's baby and I have to say likely the most impressive plant Ive ever worked with from seed. I hope to work with her again in the future one day.

 

[JessE]

Jesse,
Any chance you can share your idea of where the confusion arises? Because to me, the confusion is that the strain description percentages don't match the contributions of the individual parents used in some cases...and I totally understand that its easy to make a typo when writing these things...but many of us asked about this a long time ago and shanti said he'd fix it...and I know he's busy...trust me, he's not the only one who leads a busy life...but if I had several products in my catalog that were incorrect, or at least not clear...I'd make those changes ASAP so that my customers know exactly what I had avaiable...that seems to make sense...so, what do you think?

Hi Sensi,
Do you have specific examples, with quotes and links to share with us so that we can have an idea of what it is, exactly, you're referring too? I do not believe that most of the confusion lay in %'s, but rather in like and multiple terming.

As for Shanti's schedule, I usually have about as much of an idea as the next guy as to what he's doing so I can not really give you any idea's on what his calender looks like but as of recently I am sure there have been some issues more pressing than others.

 

[oneofus]

Hi Jesse...thanks for recognizing I was asking a straight question and not trying to push your buttons!

Hey Sensi...you need to take fishy's online course in "pushing people's buttons" then. Diddley took it just last month and now he's advising the Joint Chiefs of Staff....

"Oh come on guys, just push the big red button and be done with it!"

 

[Epic Genetics]

but the MNS Mango Haze is definitely Shanti's baby and I have to say likely the most impressive plant Ive ever worked with from seed. I hope to work with her again in the future one day.

one would think if it was "the most impressive plant you worked with from seed" that it would be the ONLY plant you would be working with and not some "i hope to work with her again some day" type plant

unless you are growing some clone only strains that walk all over it , but then again you have always said the same as shanti that mns can reproduce any modern strain out there, so that leads us back to you claiming that "MNS Mango Haze is definitely Shanti's baby and I have to say likely the most impressive plant Ive ever worked with from seed. I hope to work with her again in the future one day"

makes us wonder

just saying

 

[Morphote]

Conversations just like this are why I don't care about plant pedigrees.

M.

 

[oneofus]

Conversations just like this are why I don't care about plant pedigrees.

M.

comments just like this are why I don't care about Fresh Genetics

 

[wonkadonk]

Do you have specific examples, with quotes and links to share with us so that we can have an idea of what it is, exactly, you're referring too? I do not believe that most of the confusion lay in %'s

All of the "rock n rollers" are described as if the haze ac male is 100% haze. While we know that he is actually 50% haze 25% skunk and 25% NL5. All of them but the doors are described as 50% haze when in fact they are 25% haze.

It brings into question other details and contradictions. Accurate descriptions are important. They should either be done correctly, or not at all, imo.

 

[oneofus]

All of the "rock n rollers" are described as if the haze ac male is 100% haze. While we know that he is actually 50% haze 25% skunk and 25% NL5. All of them but the doors are described as 50% haze when in fact they are 25% haze.

It brings into question other details and contradictions. Accurate descriptions are important. They should either be done correctly, or not at all, imo.

Dear wonkydonk,

my teddy bears eat moonbeams

FACT!

fishy

 

[Joe King Park]

Hi all,
Prior to just a couple years ago, the only like terms used here regularly were Haze A and Haze C. Only in recent times has language such as 5hz122, A5 and C5 etc. caught on with regularity and has served to cause quite a bit of confusion.

For those of you who may need a quick synopsis, Haze A was a male plant which is now dead. It had a brother plant, Haze C which is alive and well within the MNS camp. Virtually every haze plant worth its weight in gold can trace its origins to these two varieties, who were in Nevil Schoenmakers hands before their acquisition in their various forms by Shanti here at MNS.

For more information:
http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/4-talk-shantibaba-mrnice/1606-origins-haze.html

Varieties such as A5 and C5 are seperate from the MNS pool, but from related stock, and were scarcely known until alot of publicity surrounding the Mr. Nice Haze A and Haze C varieties started to shape up. Then these similarly named varieties started to gain more attention at the various forums, even at one point claiming to be parental lines to the MNS camp varieties.

For more information:
http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/6-breede...6-a5-haze-cutting-mother-nevs-mango-haze.html

The first time I heard mention of the 122 was from Mr. Haze in Holland I believe, a friend of Shanti's who is apparently well connected. Later when Nevil arrived, the term 5hz122 in reference to a female cutting began to get quite a bit of use.

http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/57277-post30.html



Hi Cptn,
I think there is another explanation, however Shanti is for sure much more capable of answering this in a more satisfactory and accurate manner than myself. He always has a full plate, so who knows when or if he gets around too it, but the MNS Mango Haze is definitely Shanti's baby and I have to say likely the most impressive plant Ive ever worked with from seed. I hope to work with her again in the future one day.

Maybe This Article Thats Over A Decade Old May Explain . Its Shanti Introducing Mr Nice Seeds
Kinda Off Topic, But I'd Love To Read A Book Written By Shanti Or Nevil
JKP

 

[wonkadonk]

Dear wonkydonk,

my teddy bears eat moonbeams

FACT!

fishy

I like when the rainbows run rings around the moon
magic papers that can't be red
flying patterns filled my head
the chattering skeleton came and made me dead
it's all stars

FICTION!

wonky

 

[Cptn]

I agree Sensi, but I think the use of percentages of parent stock in hybrids is intentionally overly simple for the regular grower to help them understand what a strain may be like, but it falls completely short of meeting the needs of even the most inexperienced home breeder. This is because it has no way to reflect the influence of selection for F2 and F3 progeny to isolate select traits in a hybrid for recombination. which Shanti has used very effectively in preserving parents only available in hybrid now.

This all was discussed months ago...there are either several mistakes in the genetic descriptions on the strains page or the actual crosses are not what they seem...for example, it says the doors is 25% NL5 and 75% haze...well, Haze A/C is the male at it's 25% skunk...where did the skunk go? It should be 12.5% skunk, 25% NL5 and 50% Haze...

So, when you bring up the Haze AC male, probably the most complex and inbred parent Shanti has today, I kind of stop reading. Shanti has said his goal with creating the AC male was to select for haze traits and recombine until he had something he considereed to be high enough percentage of haze to be described as 100% haze.
Of course, we all now that it's not 100%, but which description would be more useful for most of Shanti's customers? 100% haze, or 12.5% skunk, 25% NL5 and 50% Haze? People think this is 1+1=2, but it is (hopefully) far, far from that.

Frankly, I wish Shanti would get rid of the percentages. There are multiple strains that have the same parent combination percentages and yet the plants are unique with dramatic differences. See how the value becomes meaningless there?
Still, it seems to help in seed buying decisions for less detail oriented customers, or those that don't breed. Probably the majority of the customer base.

. . . what about NL5 x Afghan, it says 25% skunk, 75% Afghan...where is there skunk in NL5 and pure Afghan? It should be 100% afghan, No?

I just picked up a pack of these and was thinking the same thing.
The most obvious interpretation is that Shanti used a Nordle selection as his best source of AfgT genetics to use in the cross.
If that is correct, I wonder if Shanti inbred and selected to eliminate skunk traits (he must be pretty good at that after the job he did with G13/sk) for the afghan parent in this cross?

I'll say it again, what is so difficult about reporting the pedigrees correctly?
And isn't all seed production going on in Spain?
Are we in the cannabis twilight zone?

Of all the breeders in the world, there are precious few in a better position to accurately publish the pedigree of their strains than Shanti. I know I have offered to help re-write them for clarity as have other members.
I often think if I could get Shanti on the phone for 10 minutes, I could nail down 90% of these issues (assuming full candor from Shanti.)

And Sensi, I agree our world today is rapidly turning into the twilight zone.

 

[Morphote]

Hint: no matter how this threads turns out "the proof is in the seed".

M.

 

[Cptn]

Thanks Jesse,
I know a lot of effort went into that reply and it is clear and accurate.
I think you left out the history of the C5 and A5 cuttings that were gifted to some growers in the Netherlands and grown commercially there for years (maybe even today.) That can be confusing for some people when they first hear about it.

Hi Cptn,
I think there is another explanation, however Shanti is for sure much more capable of answering this in a more satisfactory and accurate manner than myself. He always has a full plate, so who knows when or if he gets around too it, but the MNS Mango Haze is definitely Shanti's baby and I have to say likely the most impressive plant Ive ever worked with from seed. I hope to work with her again in the future one day.

For the other option I didn't mention, I suspect you are hinting at the inbreeding method he used to preserve G13. Selecting and inbreeding from a single seedstock to isolate plants nearly identical to the parents of the original F1 cross, and then using these now distinct phenos to recombine into a new version of the old F1. This process is complicated enough that describing it in detail is likely to confuse a lot of the customer base.
The description of that process needs to be condensed. I'll take a stab at it:

Perform a forked selection from F1s to create 2 new IBLs that each isolate traits of the original P1s.
After 3 gens, you have 2 unique lines that each capture the essence of one of the original P1 parents.
Those are then recombined to create a new F1.​

Need new syntax for the new parents too. Would these be P2's?
============
Edited to add that I know Shanti did not breed to isolate skunk from G13xSk and recombine it, that in fact he only isolated the G13 parent traits and recombined with his current best skunk. I am presenting it as a generic description to be used on other similar strains if they exist.
Thanks for allowing me this editorial license.
============
Example:
In the case where the goal is to produce a new Haze A and a new AfgT, Shanti could start with Afghan Haze F1s and perform selection/incrosses to isolate both the afghan and the haze. Recombining them would be version 2 or the original strain.

Maybe that is what Shanti should do, to add the number "2" to the end of any strain name that has had to be re-constructed in this way.

I could be wrong, but ultimately, I think the community would welcome details like that if they have been necessary to preserve lines.
Most of us understand what a huge undertaking something like that would be, and I myself am grateful to Shanti for making it possible to enjoy these genetics, REGARDLESS of how he did it.

Thanks Shanti.

 

[deran]

while we have nh phenos which finish within 9 weeks, its more than questionable that there are mathematically 75% haze in it

forget those percentages

 

[farmergiles]

I agree Sensi, but I think the use of percentages of parent stock in hybrids is intentionally overly simple for the regular grower to help them understand what a strain may be like, but it falls completely short

Yes I agree.

while we have nh phenos which finish within 9 weeks, its more than questionable that there are mathematically 75% haze in it

Not necessarily, if the 9 week plant leans very heavily to the NL in the hazeA x NL mother then that could be close to 50% NL even assuming that hazeA is 100% haze.

 

[Betterhaff]

Ha Sensi, you beat me to the punch. I agree, the genes are the genes, the expression is a different story.