Grail: The Ultimate Haze Hybrid

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F13 is a tweaked Flo.

Sorry, I'm too tired tonight to go digging through Mr. Alkaline's articles for specifics, but it is considered part of the Flo line (rather than part of the Blueberry line).

Look for F13 in the chart below. This chart should look familiar (again, courtesy of Mr. Alkaline & FOE20):
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Yeah, i have a pack of F13, i read somewhere that it's an f5 of the Flo line, and the female plant used in the cross was plant #13. So "Flo f5 plant #13" = "F13"
 
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No disrespect to DJ's lines, I love a lot of his lines actually...but a multi-polyhybrid to cross to a NH male would be hard to stabilze and get something consistant. Too many alleles or genetic recombinations. The best bet for a female would be something that is homezygous which breeds true, like a inbreed line or old farmed lines or landraces which haven't been messed with as much.

If I was to find potential breeding partners for the NH male, I would 1st find other lines that shared the same expressions and quality of effect. Maybe an other Haze type.

If I wasn't able to do that I would go with something that would add to the effect of the male donor.

Like a Colombian Red, Black,Gold, Oaxacan, Highland Thai, Valenzuelan, Uruguaian, Congolese or Angola Red.

Stabilizing the line would be far easier then using hybrids.

I am actually growing a DJ line called Johnny Blaze: Nevilles Haze x DJs Blueberry. Maybe I could dig up a pic or 2..

I would hope that anything called "Grail" would be nothing but awesome.
 
the grail mum.

what about brian daniels, he was mr Thia genetics way back when, dont no about now, but if any one had the old school flavour it would be him. no?
 
Does F-13 carry the same propensity for mutants that DJ's other lines do? If so, that alone would be enough to strike it off the list IMO.

Nevil, is there some specific flavor note that you are looking for in the female plant? Peppery, incensy, some specific fruit flavor, etc? Is it important that the mother is also a traditional thin-leaf sativa? Are there specific criteria other than 'gets you high as hell' and 'has good combinatory possibilities with NH'?

ESS
 
FreshGenetics said:
I guess people just don't know.

BlueHazes are KILLER!
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Hi Fresh :)
I think one of the problems with the "blue hazes" in question is their relation to the haze varieties, which if im not mistaken poses a problem? Also it looks some other members have also touched on some interesting points. Perhaps DJ's greatest accomplishment to date is the legend of his blueberry creation, which as Ive previously discussed is a little more complicated than most are lead to believe due to the fact Sag, Dutch Passion, Nirvana and perhaps even White Label have also contributed to getting the name out there well before DJ himself had his own seed company. And the blueberry on the market today, true blueberry or not, is not the same version which gained so much popularity in the '90s. So while it may be true DJ brought the blue lines to Holland, (why does this story sound so familiar with parallels to other stories we've heard in the past?) the entire picture is often times a little more complicated than what most are lead to believe.

From sources I trust Im told that Flo is perhaps DJ's best product currently available on the market, though I think like with Blueberry, others were responsible for its end game breeding which subsequently hit the seed market on a wide scale basis. Some of his newer varieties have yet to make nearly the same impact as the Blueberry from the '90s for example. Having fond memories of the Blueberry which was commercially available during the '90s here in the states, I can tell you I would not be looking to DJ Shorts current offerings in order to recapture those glory days.
 
Yummy Chocolate.

The F-13 IMO is DJ's nicest offering right now, hands down.
Yes it does have "mutant" leaf growth. About 3 out of 10.
IMO the F-13 phenos more closely resemble the Chocolate Thai. I think it was pheno 4? in the link FreshGenetics put up.
It seems fairly stable as well.
But the BlueHaze aka BlueDreamSupreme
That's a quality plant breeder IMO.
DJ did he Blue Haze??? You sure about that?
:)_~ KB
 
These 'mutations' are precious to some.

F13 male (from f2 seed):
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https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=41880&highlight=broccoli

DJ Short Article:
General Irregularities/Anomalies of Cannabis Relating to Transgressive Segregation

Some of the Blue Family lines of cannabis (True Blueberry, Grape Krush, etc.) are known to occasionally sport various anomalies and irregularities. The main anomaly reported from these lines is that of the "krinkle" leaf type. Also referred to as a form of variegation this irregularity usually involves a twisting or convolution along half of the leaf divided along the central leaf vein. This anomaly usually affects anywhere from 5% to 20% of a given sample depending on the strain (TB = 5% to 10%, GK = 10% to 20%). In and of itself, this trait does not affect yield or the overall health of the plant. It is merely a simple deformity unique to this line of cannabis.

It is important to know the differences between simple deformities and more complex mutations. Simple deformities and anomalies are semi-common phenomenon whereas genetic mutation is by far more rare and profound. Most of the irregular expressions witnessed in some of the Blue Family lines are mere deformities. Very few are true gross mutations and those are usually sterile or non-viable (usually < %1).

I used to think that the deformities witnessed in certain lines of cannabis were strictly the result of a mutagenic regimen such as colchicine. Variegation in particular is a typical symptom of such a process. If such a process were used on the varieties of cannabis I have worked with, I assume that it was in the Thai lines as that is where most of these traits seem to originate. There is, however, another aspect to consider regarding these anomalies called transgressive segregation.

Transgressive segregation refers to the situation where the progeny from crosses of distinctly different P1's exhibit characteristics beyond what either parent exhibited. A good botanical example is that of the cabbage family from which broccoli, cauliflower and Brussel sprouts developed from the same meager beach cabbage. This is the level of the diversity witnessed in the f2's and beyond crosses of the plants that I have worked with.

The combination of the two very pure, unique and distinctly different varieties of indica and sativa resulted in the extreme variation in the f-2 and beyond progeny. This is where the anomalies, irregularities, eccentricities and effects of transgressive segregation are witnessed and isolated. It is from this extended diversity that new and exciting lines are discovered and isolated. Simple leaf irregularities are no reason to abandon a particular line, and perhaps are an indication of something worthwhile. Suggesting that these anomalies are in some way detrimental to the overall cannabis gene-pool is akin to suggesting that broccoli, cauliflower and Brussel sprouts are in some way detrimental to the cabbage family.

[Side Note: What may have been very detrimental to the overall cannabis gene-pool was the "willy-nilly" introduction of indica and indica-based genes to the equatorial regions of the world–circa 1980's. The tropics are susceptible to aggressive takeover by dominant species and sub-species. This may be what happened to the fine sativa land races of yore–coupled with human selection for production-based indica varieties. Hopefully this phenomenon will be relatively short lived as human selection re-kindles the near-lost memory of the beloved land-race sativa.]

The structural differences witnessed in some of the Blue line individuals including anomalies such as leaf shape, leaf krinkle and color variations, along with basic aesthetic qualities such as range of flavor and palate, issues of duration, tolerance and even shelf-life are more than likely the results of transgenic segregation.
None of these minor abnormalities are in any way detrimental to the overall gene-pool. There do occur very rare instances of freakishly deformed and stunted individuals. Every one of these I have ever encountered has been sterile or non-viable. However, some have produced some of the most unique finished product I have ever sampled in terms of flavor, potency and effect. Unfortunately, these extreme abnormalities are not only rare and sterile, most are also nearly impossible to clone.

Please remember, my number one goal when breeding fine herb is that of the finished product. All other factors; structure, color, growth rates and patterns, leaf shape, odor, flavor, height, flowering characteristics, even potency (please see my other comments concerning bland potency versus exciting quality in my book and other articles), etc. are of lesser concern. My secondary concern is the minimization and elimination of hermaphrodites. This is primarily for the indoor community's behalf, as it is my belief that true breeding equatorial (outdoor bred and produced) strains are all monoecious to some degree. It is the quality of the finished product that I aim for with all of my work. Structural considerations are selected for only after a variety passes the "head/body" test.

Please note also that I consider myself more of an artist than a scientist. I respect science for what it is (discipline and controlled focus) and enjoy its utilization, but for me it is still simply another tool with which to create. With that said please allow me to state that much of the science (definitive recipe) involved in supporting my goal (to discover, create and produce truly good herb) remains somewhat of a mystery to me. Due to all of the truly good herb I have had the good fortune to sample, I am confident in identifying what I consider to be truly good herb–with or without the science. I am equally curious, as are many, regarding the scientific observations, disciplines and discoveries that support this goal.

Toward that goal there are a few points I would like to attempt to clarify:

The Purple Thai. As mentioned before, the Purple Thai was a cross between an outstanding Highland Oaxaca and a very freaky Chocolate Thai.

The Chocolate Thai was one of the most difficult plants to grow. It was dark and very asymmetric, rarely sporting any kind of a definite main-stem for any length of time. It was difficult to clone and very hermaphroditic, producing small airy buds at best. The herb from the Chocolate Thai passed the test (the progeny were at least as good as, if not better than, their parent), but had certain problems otherwise (structural and hermaphroditic). It was also similar in potency to the Highland Thai regarding strength, length and type of high.

The Highland Oaxaca was structurally a different strain (tall, with a definite main-stem, symmetric with less hermaphroditism and better formed buds). The two were crossed and the resulting seeds produced the famed Purple Thai that I was able to use for quite awhile. The Purple Thai exhibited the symmetry and desirability of the Oaxaca with the potency and dark coloration of the Chocolate Thai–the best of both worlds, and its hermaphroditism was much more manageable. It also cloned well. The plants from these seeds also passed the test of equal or improved quality progeny in terms of finished product. Personally I preferred the finished product of the Purple Thai to the Chocolate, not just due to its growth patterns but in terms of the overall effect. The original Highland Oaxaca produced the most desirable finished product, in my opinion, and has yet to be replicated to my complete satisfaction.

So technically the Purple Thai was not a true, land-race acclimated P1. However, as far as I was concerned it fit the bill quite well in that it was very consistent in the sativa genes it carried and passed (nearly identical to the Highland Thai). It was also the closest to producing the desirability of the Highland Oaxaca’s finished product.

The Highland Thai, could possibly have been from Burma (now Myanmar), as borders between the two countries are questionable and change. Other drainage systems in the region lead to the Eastern Himalaya, meaning that the "Highland Thai" could have originated from a number of places. The entire Himalayan region has perhaps the greatest concentration of geographic "sweet spots" in the world, many worthy of exploration. The Highland Thai grew much like the Chocolate Thai; asymmetric, with more stretch–especially in the bud structures.

The difference in the finished product between the Highland and Purple Thai was that the Highland Thai was more potent while the Purple Thai was more "kind" ("kind" being more comfortable to endure, especially while tripping). Another way to put it is that the Highland Thai could be more "racy" or "scary" while the Purple Thai tended to be more "relaxed" or "happy". Both had no ceiling or noticeable tolerance effect, and both provided a long lasting experience, as well. Both also shared a very similar sweet/fruity flavored phenotype that was unmistakably Juicy Fruit/Tutti Fruity–the ultimate female breeder (Note: this was from the plants grown locally--Oregon, indoor and out).

Regarding a clue to the equatorial "Holy Grail" such as the Highland Oaxaca and Santa Marta Gold (South and Central American varieties) a certain, unmistakable flavor comes to mind: that of incense cedar/frankincense/burgundy/floral with spicy/savory undertones. Coffee, chocolate and fine tobacco were also present, but the sweet incense cedar is what I most recall from the Highland Oaxaca and Colombian Gold varieties. The Thai was more complex with more spicy/savory aspects atop a finely distilled burgundy (probably more from the cure) and sort of a "dying" floral, sickly-sweet aroma that was unmistakeably Thai herb (sometimes from Hawaiian as well).

An important aspect to note here is that, according to the best of my knowledge, most high quality sativa of the era was in some way shape or form of Thai origin (or greater Himalayan, but for simplicity’s sake referred to as "Thai"). This includes the Oaxaca, Colombian, Panamanian, Hawaiian among others of the late 1970's. Most of it supposedly came from Thai seed stock. Having sampled many of the region-of-origin varieties of the time, I must concur. Many of the Central, South American and the great Island herbs of the time were more than likely of Thai origin. Similarly, today’s version of ‘Sweet Skunk’ (a misnomer for sure) when grown to fully finished bloom and with a long-time cure shares a distinct Thai quality as well.

Therefore, it seems Thai was the fundamental building block for most quality commercial sativa of the 1970's. ("Commercial" is a key word in the previous sentence as I am sure that there were/are many different origins of the regional high quality herbs.) Certain aspects of acclimation must have been responsible for the subtle (and not-so-subtle) differences of the various herbs of the time.

My definition of acclimation is: grown in a specific region or circumstance for enough generations (in-line bred) to impart characteristics unique to the region or circumstance–preferably in an herbal "sweet-spot" such as Highland Oaxaca. This is a very important consideration regarding future resurrection of land race varieties.

Side Note: When I was working with these sativa back in the 1970's it was all done either outdoors or under large florescent systems, 8' bulbs set onto 4'X8' sheets of plywood and suspended from 2"X4" frames (obviously before the advent of HID lighting). This was also before the introduction of the Indica (Afghan) genes, which appeared commercially at the same time as HID lighting (circa 1978-‘79).

The indica, or "Afghan" varieties became commercially available at the end of the ‘70's, and were the polar opposite to the Thai’s and other sativa. It is interesting to note that Afghanistan is west and north of the Himalaya while Thailand (and Burma) is east and south. Short, stout, wide-leafed, very symmetric and adapted to a short flowering cycle, the indica is what brought the musky "skunk" odor to the game. I must say that I was not a big fan of the pure indica "skunk" strain. It is the primary culprit responsible for of much of the couch-lock characteristic found in much of today’s herb. Indica usually has a low ceiling and a quick tolerance buildup. In short, it is boring, bland and dull herb, unless one seeks anesthetization (or hashish production).

In the indica’s defense it needs to be noted that it helped birth the indoor cannabis industry. Without the indica’s fast flowering cycle or its dense bud production or its short stature, the indoor grow scene would be very different today. It was somewhat obvious to recognize indica’s virtues and liabilities for what they were. It was work and dedication to breed out the bad and to strive for the desirable. The primary virtue of the indica variety is that of its contributions toward hashish production.

An interesting side-note to the indica breeding scheme was the initial direction of the cross. I found much better success with the sativa/indica cross (the female sativa crossed with the indica pollen) than with the opposite indica/sativa cross (the female indica pollinated with the sativa pollen). Again, this was primarily for quality of finished product from the progeny. I found my "Holy Grails" via the diversity of the sativa/indica cross.

Other anomalies witnessed from the extreme diversity of cannabis include examples of polyploid expression–triple and quadruple types, twins–including various forms of conjoined twins, double leaf and double root phenomenon, along with extreme variation in odor, color and flavor, etc.

So the successes of transgressive segregation are highly dependent upon the selections made in the P1 and f2 generations. These are the most important generations regarding overall selection. The direction of the P1 cross also seemed to play a part in successfully finding high quality herb.

That is all I have time for right now. Feel free to add comments to this thread and I will attempt to answer any questions as time permits. (Please forgive me if I do not respond soon to an inquiry as my life is anything but stable at the moment--hopefully later this year--but in the meantime wish me luck on finding a suitable locale for some serious r & d!) Thank you to all who contribute and partake in this sharing of information--your input is appreciated. So take care, have fun and please keep the discussion flowing.

peace/out

dj
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i rely like F13 but why put mutations in the Grail?

good too see you too heer Bohempian alway's good too see your pic and threads
 
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Lovely Picks Bohempian I love a bit of bud porn lol what was the high like mate?
 
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Nevil said:
Hi LBH
to get back to your question.


When I first started using Ruderalis, I was trying to eradicate everything from the wild plant except the early flowering gene. NL1 was the opposite of Ruderalis, so I crossed it with that and then put the earliest son back to the mother. The earliest son from that was put to a Haze and I grew the offspring outdoors in Holland. I started flowering early, but didn't finish in the short Dutch Autumn. Still, I had some outdoor Haze bud in Holland.
I also crossed the R.1x1 to NL5 about 8 times, always using males that flowered at the 4th internode. It peaked after 5 back-crosses and didn't get better after that.
I never did NL5r X NL5r like I was planning to, ended up in jail instead.
It's up to you now mate, there is a good selection of Haze type available to cross it to.
N.
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Did you lose your seeds Nevil? Did you work the Rudy into anything else? And was the rudy the only auto you ever worked? Also was it mold resistant?
 
When it became illegal to grow for seed indoors in Holland in 1997, it kind of fucked things up. I didn't join the DEA and I never got a permit to grow in Europe.
When I had the latitude, I tried to give everyone what they wanted. Indicas that were stronger than heroin, Outdoor varieties that would flower in summer in Canada, Haze that would open portals to other dimensions and so on.
Now I'm only interested in my own head, the end result of which may also suit others.

I made 3 lines of Ruderalis. NL5, SK1 and Haze. I never finished the project. I suspect that what everyone is calling auto-flowers is double factor Ruderalis.
N.
 
i thankyou for all your works and contributions while i wasnt around for many of your releases in particular ,im glad your tourch landed in shantis hands and im proud and thankful to be part of the mns family and to hav experienced some of stock you hav collected

i look forward to anything you might release and im particularly happy as you say this is for your head ,soo there wont be any sacraficies which might result in short flowering time or a heavy yield to please the masses but it will be of the highest order,which is all i ever look for

has anything came to mind or caught your attention for this project

i mentioned the oaxacan som hav spoke of ,dj's lines are interesting but id hope you look for the any available parent before his available stock


1luvbigherb
 
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