Breeding techniques

[oscar the rotund]

...
I don't think you really understand what recombination is oscar...

I agree but I'm not all together sure that everyone else that says they do, does. This is no hack at you or anyone. I'm not sure we really understand. I just ask silly questions sometimes to increase my understanding. Thinking is good. But only if I have aspirin handy.

Lamarckism has been proven to be correct in some studies with mice. It's definitely not dead.
A Comeback for Lamarckian Evolution? - Technology Review

 

[Unclepeter]

Lamarckism has been proven to be correct in some studies with mice. It's definitely not dead.

I have conflict within myself over epigenetics and cannabis I have often thought that cannabis in an indoor enviroment is evidence of epigentics at play ie Northern lights adapted to indoor enviro and performs better there than outdoor.. but then its been bred to do just this as through the traits selected for and seen phenotypically.. I have also thought about seeds produced by organic means and if they perform better in an organic soil enviro compared to hydro.. would there be any difference, I know SamS discounts it.

 

[GUANOIZDASHIZNIT]

Phenotypic plasticity!! Thats what i have been looking into i was interested in epigenetics but extreme adaptation is the way to go.

People say its 50% enviro 50% genetical i would go as far to say its more like 80% enviro 20% genetical. GENETICS WERE BORN OUT OF THE ENVIRO AND ARE DTERMINED BY THE ENVIRO.

I had a blueberry plant that was totally diff from the mum as i said i was looking at epigenetics. I did stress the plant supercropping etc and the flavinoids terpenes thc content and structure was all totally different from the mum.

My thinking is that since i put in a stressful enviro it had to extremely adapt to it thus changed its pheno and maybe chemotyped. I think there is a hidden mutant in every plant good and bad add this to breeding projects and it is a sure winner

Any thought would be appreciated

 

[GreenintheThumb]

IMO genetics are more important than the environment. You can grow 1000 hemp plants in the absolute best environment and you're not ganna get any kushy goodness. Environment matters but once it's dialed in you're pretty much done.

Lets just say I'd take a haze-skunk grown in a crap tent over a lowryder grown in a perfect glasshouse in the Cali sun.

 

[kashrocks]

Lets just say I'd take a haze-skunk grown in a crap tent over a lowryder grown in a perfect glasshouse in the Cali sun.

Well it depends IMO... let s just say that if the tent is made in China I would prefer to smoke the lowryder grown in the perfect greenhouse...lol

Peace.

K.

 

[GUANOIZDASHIZNIT]

IMO genetics are more important than the environment. You can grow 1000 hemp plants in the absolute best environment and you're not ganna get any kushy goodness. Environment matters but once it's dialed in you're pretty much done.

Lets just say I'd take a haze-skunk grown in a crap tent over a lowryder grown in a perfect glasshouse in the Cali sun.

Genetics are more important than the enviroment ok we are all here because we love cannabis genetics but our genes are only here because of the enviroment that we are a product.

From hemp to kush i`m not talking of changing the genotype of the plant. I`m not talking about the best enviro for the plant.

I`M saying stress the plant enviromently to the point that it changes completely from its mother who is in her dialled in enviro with no stress

The cutting would have to change to suit its enviroment like acclimatise but to the point of extreme adaptation which the end result is a totally different plant but exact same genotype than before

I know for certain that my plant went through phenotypic plasticity which incorporates epigenetic inheritance

How much do you know about epigenetics???

 

[GUANOIZDASHIZNIT]

Well it depends IMO... let s just say that if the tent is made in China I would prefer to smoke the lowryder grown in the perfect greenhouse...lol

Peace.

K.

Not if it was greenhouse seeds co.

 

[GUANOIZDASHIZNIT]

The Gene in Context: from Developmental Plasticity to Plastic Heredity / Gen v kontekstu: od razvojne plasti

 

[GreenintheThumb]

I`M saying stress the plant enviromently to the point that it changes completely from its mother who is in her dialled in enviro with no stress

The cutting would have to change to suit its enviroment like acclimatise but to the point of extreme adaptation which the end result is a totally different plant but exact same genotype than before

Yeah, but why bother to do this?

How much do you know about epigenetics???

As much as anyone. It's why I recommend making sure you have a seeded mom in the best environment possible. It's the same recommendation I made a few years back when the issue came up on ICMAG. I'm sad to say there was zero research on that topic at the time and that remains true to this day in regards to cannabis.

Having said that, I think people should mostly ignore the issue since we can't even get everyone on the same page of the well researched facts about cannabis.

Take care of your moms, don't leave her hungry in the shady corner just because you're only producing seed. That's my two cents.

 

[GUANOIZDASHIZNIT]

Yeah, but why bother to do this?



As much as anyone. It's why I recommend making sure you have a seeded mom in the best environment possible. It's the same recommendation I made a few years back when the issue came up on ICMAG. I'm sad to say there was zero research on that topic at the time and that remains true to this day in regards to cannabis.

Having said that, I think people should mostly ignore the issue since we can't even get everyone on the same page of the well researched facts about cannabis.

Take care of your moms, don't leave her hungry in the shady corner just because you're only producing seed. That's my two cents.

I do it because i experiment with my hobby. If its the same recommendation that you made on icmag then you will understand my point. What they know now about gene expression is alot different to what they knew. Watch the link of a lecture i put up and tell me the impossability of it all and why cannabis is different?

People should not be ignorant just be open minded and have some knowledge and put theory into practice. I`m happy because i got my desired effect

Is cannabis a very adaptable plant if so would it acclimatise if put in a different country from its origin. Could it acclimatise even better if put through stresses in that enviroment of course it has to adapt or die!!

plasticity=



"the capacity of organisms with the same genotype to vary in developmental pattern, in phenotype, or in behavior according to varying environmental conditions"


I honestly cant see why you think that the above cant happen

I will call it extreme acclimatisation

In years to come i know i will be proved correct on this subject

If nevil was correct in saying jack herer and diesel and ssh are all the same coming from a man who knows genetics and breeding inside out. If its true there is phenotypic plasticity at its best!

The enviroment determines what we are and will be not the other way about FACT!

Thats why we are all neanderthal still to this day NOT! Why are we different if same genotype obviously because of our enviroment (THE GREAT CHANGER OF GENES)

I look after my mom and shes not seeded i state mom not plural because i like working an observing with 1 family at a time. I wouldnt put a seeded mom in the shade or let her go hungry. I know its ONLY SEEDS as you state but thats where it all starts seeded mom taken care of and nurtured!

ITS AMAZING THAT MY BLUEBERRY MOM( TASTES EXATLY LIKE CHOCOLATE THAI)AND IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT FROM HER UK BLUES(WITHOUT THE ACETONE) TASTING DAUGHTER.

Try it yourself i did and i am a happy chappy.

Do you get a good phenos or genos from your plants and or both
i got a gd phenotype from that genotype thank you enviroment!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[GMT]

When talking about acclimatisation over generations within a new environment, I don't think that we should overlook the fact that in alternative conditions, alternative plants will have advantages over other plants than would have been the case in their original environmental conditions. This results in the population having alternative genes passed down in greater numbers, and the epigenetic effects will only really be in effect when gene expression becomes advantageous. So rather than the plants acclimatising, natural selection takes place to create an alternative progression path of the gene families.

 

[MJPassion]

So rather than the plants acclimatising, natural selection takes place to create an alternative progression path of the gene families.

Isn't acclimation a part of the natural selection process?

I mean, If you had 1000 untested F1 plants from seed in a given area you would expect to see a few NOT make it due to the climactic conditions. This, in my eye, would result in a "natural selection" based entirely on climate. If the climate happens to cull a few plants then the "genetic imprint" (genotype) wasn't optimized for that particular climate.



I don't mean to step on any toes so ya better get some steel toed boots or be quick on your feet.
Soooo, as I've been reading I came across this term "genotype". As I understand it, a "genotype" is any single individual from a group of similar individuals. None of them are exactly the same, since the genetic recombination is different plant to plant, so referring to a group as a genotype would be incorrect usage of the term, IMO, and causes confusion to the reader.

 

[binkweed]

outdoors certain conditions change over time. the outdoor environment causes different traits to show up. im one of those who breed for environmental traits. in this way i have seeds for my area. each year i start 100 seedlings at the end of each grow season outdoors and see how many make it thru the winter. where im from it snows and becomes 20 degrees at night. this year only 10 made it.

 

[GUANOIZDASHIZNIT]

In my case i`m talking indoor enviromental change/stress. Whatever an organism picks up in its enviroment CAN be handed down through offsprings. So how do these genes express themselves in a perfect enviroment compared to stressful.

Not only can plasticity permit a single genotype to assume different phenotypes, it can also enable different genotypes to assume a single phenotype. It can therefore cover up variation in a manner analogous to dominance. Where selection is acting in a stabilizing manner it can permit the population to assume a uniform phenotype, while retaining a considerable degree of genetic variation. Many of the arguments that apply to the evolutionary significance of dominance are applicable to plasticity.

 

[GMT]

A population can acclimatise, an individual can merely express. Natural selection is the process whereby those individuals whose genes allow them to outbreed the others, pass their genes onto a greater proportion of the next generation. Over time those individuals whose genes deal with the new environment the best, will be spread to all of the offspring, meaning that the population now contains the best genes for their environment. That's how natural selection allows a population to adapt or acclimatise. However this process is random, and there is no intelligence at work within either the population as a whole or any individual plant. New gene mutations over time, will either offer an individual an advantage in breeding, or a disadvantage. Those with the disadvantage will find their mutation becomes extinct, and those whose mutation/s offer an advantage will pass them on in greater numbers until the whole population possesses them. Epigenetics is merely the response of the RNA to its environment. Turning certain genes off, and some on. Epigenetics does not design new genes for the environmental conditions, it merely allows those already present to be expressed.

 

[joshuahazen]

can you put some links up please? as far as I'm aware mutations occur due to either error during meosis or from transposons on the Y, the only other way is thru viruses, chemicals and radiation.

I am not postulating as to what causes the higher rate of mutation, only that it has been observed in many studies. Here are just a couple that I was able to find after a brief search. Perhaps it is because there are more errors occurring during Meiosis because of the variation, however, I believe that there is something else going on, something that we do not yet understand, and haven't even begun to identify.

I have also noticed in my own breeding projects that what appear to be mutations are more common when working with pairings between genetically diverse specimens.



http://web.bio.utk.edu/labrador/PDf/Mol Biol Evol 7 931-7.pdf


Increased chromosomal mutation rate after hybridiz... [Science. 1983] - PubMed result


Species evolution: the role of ... - Google Books



http://www.pnas.org/content/92/14/6304.full.pdf


JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

 

[joshuahazen]

also i think he was a believer of "the theory of the inheritance of acquired characteristics" so a bit Lamarckism...

I don't think so. I think his work was much more influenced by Mendel. I Have never once seen him reference Lamarck, or discuss acquired charactaristics, however he frequently refers to and discusses Mendel.

With that said, on the cutting edge today, scientists in genetics are only recently starting to admit that Lamarcks principles of acquired inheritance may have been dismissed to quickly. And recent theories like epigenetics, have recently started giving credence to Lamarck's theory of acquired inheritance.

I will refer you to a quote of mine from several months ago about this very subject regarding an article posted by L33t.

Very interesting paper, thanks L33t. The arguement of hard genetics versus soft genetics, or Mendelian genetics versus Lamarckism, was thought to be settled over a century ago, it appears that maybe we don't know as much as we thought we did.
While I adhere stringently to principles of Mendelian genetics, as a dog breeder, I have always felt that something more complex is going on. While we have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the Mendelian model is in fact predominantly correct, I do in fact believe that there is also something more subtle going on. Perhaps the theory of epigenetic variation is the answer, or at least a significant step in the right direction. It seems dogs have a plethora of inherited traits, that simply cannot be explained by Mendelian principles of genetics alone. Take retrievers for example, their propensity for retrieving things, ie a stick, is not a learned trait. it is inherited. How does Mendelian genetics or Darwinism explain this?
This is just one small example. In working class dogs there are literally thousands of examples like this, shepherds for example, and Bulldogs. perhaps these traits could have evolved over billions of years, as Darwins theory of evolution through natural selection hypothesizes, but how could these Myriad mutations occur over the space of just a few hundred years?
Artificial selection alone is not enough and by itself is not an explanation in my opinion.

this is the article L33t posted: http://www.chd.ucsd.edu/seminar/docu...Effects.08.pdf

Source: http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/4-talk-s...upport/4308-questions-nevil-36.html#post72572

 

[GMT]

another possible explanation could be found in the genetic waste land. As genes are partially deleted and become non functional, they slowly get passed into genetic wastelands. As wastelands meet up in hybrids, a few of these genes may get recompleted, and become functional again.

 

[Unclepeter]

I don't think so. I think his work was much more influenced by Mendel. I Have never once seen him reference Lamarck, or discuss acquired charactaristics, however he frequently refers to and discusses Mendel.

With that said, on the cutting edge today, scientists in genetics are only recently starting to admit that Lamarcks principles of acquired inheritance may have been dismissed to quickly. And recent theories like epigenetics, have recently started giving credence to Lamarck's theory of acquired inheritance.

I will refer you to a quote of mine from several months ago about this very subject regarding an article posted by L33t.




this is the article L33t posted: http://www.chd.ucsd.edu/seminar/docu...Effects.08.pdf

Source: http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/4-talk-s...upport/4308-questions-nevil-36.html#post72572

he was a darwinist, but believed in "the theory of the inheritance of acquired characteristics"

pretty sure he rejected mendels theory on genes!.

 

[brock1]

I don't think so. I think his work was much more influenced by Mendel. I Have never once seen him reference Lamarck, or discuss acquired charactaristics, however he frequently refers to and discusses Mendel.

With that said, on the cutting edge today, scientists in genetics are only recently starting to admit that Lamarcks principles of acquired inheritance may have been dismissed to quickly. And recent theories like epigenetics, have recently started giving credence to Lamarck's theory of acquired inheritance.

I will refer you to a quote of mine from several months ago about this very subject regarding an article posted by L33t.



this is the article L33t posted: http://www.chd.ucsd.edu/seminar/docu...Effects.08.pdf

Source: http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/4-talk-s...upport/4308-questions-nevil-36.html#post72572

i don't agree about what your saying in regard to dog's josh. i have kept working dogs most my life i know men who have had fighting dog as well. well to get what i am saying across i have a jack russell terrier now. when he was younger he would come lamping with me and the lurchers. when the lurchers where lame i would take him and he would catch rabbits causing just as the lurcher would just not as Meany. the reason he wasn't as good was just because of his body's shape and size. i know a mate who used a yorkshire terrier for fox digging something they where never breed for being small vermin dog rats and nice before becoming a lap dog. i have also seen lurchers with no collie blood used to herd sheep. terriers used to retrieve to guns like spaniels would. mongrels used as fighting dogs with no bull blood in them. i think first its because of how they were brought up then the size and shape of the dog that make it better at a job then others. but ime no breeds really more able to work better than another in a way other then because of its physical attributes. just ask my little jack mate he's a real tryer and that's because of the other dogs he's been around doing there jobs more then his parents. he thinks he's a spaniel a bull breed and a sight hound and terrier all in one. and he dose the bob as good as a well trained dog of any off these breeds if the lurcher wasn't genetically faster ect.