Breeding techniques

[Paky One]

Back crossing to the parents as in the Black Widow is not called an F1 anywhere else but Mr nice .

So before you go all lynch mob on Jack better check your facts ...

Duly noted EB.

At least things are clear with you:
If I understood well, according to you Shanti has been lying to the members of his own forums since almost the beginning of his presence online as the quote on BW you mention in your post is from 2001.

I wanted to wait for Jack to answer my questions but since he seems to have run to the hill and I do not have much time to post the rest of the day

​

, here comes the meat:

In biology, hybrid can have two significations.

1- An hybrid between different species within the same genus (this is called an Interspecific hybrid).
>>> Apparently this the sole type of hybrid that both of you acknwledge.

2- An hybrid between different sub-species within a species (called an intraspecific hybrid).
>>> This is what Shanti does.

 

[jack hairy]

i would call them well bred and worked lines. but if the definition of f1 doesnt fit, it doesnt fit.

im not saying all mns strains, there are certainly some that should be clear cut f1's.
and if the work shanti does to create those other lines ends up producing a cross that resembles an f1, then he is certainly doing a good job.

no, i dont think i could recognize an f1 vs something else, unless i had experience with the strain already, through multiple generations. and i dont.

to me, every plant is different. i dont see just 2,3,6 phenos in a strain.
i see every combination and they are all different, even if its in some small way.

 

[jack hairy]

the f1 notation is for keeping track of fillial generations of inbreeding after the initial cross of two unrelated varieties.
if they are already related, then it just doesnt fit.
if related lines can be crossed together and considered f1, it would muddy the water a little bit dont you think?
but at this point its just a name and semantics for what you want to calll this or that.
we know a bit about how they were worked and put back together, so at least we know what was done.

i suspect the real issue with some is whether they believe some strains are f1s at all, and not f2's, not whether they are technically f1s or not.

is NH considered an f1?
A and C may be related in some way, or maybe they arent.
so does the tag f1 really mean anything, if it is what it is?
maybe its only applied to ibl, true breeding lines and not a cross of a cross, even if they are unrelated.

some people claim current NH does not have the same wild powerful plants that it used to. if you never grew the older version, how would you know?
just hypothetically, If NH was f2, what would one see as the difference between the f1 and f2 version? depends on the selection of the parents mainly...?

 

[Paky One]

i would call them well bred and worked lines. but if the definition of f1 doesnt fit, it doesnt fit.
O
im not saying all mns strains, there are certainly some that should be clear cut f1's.
and if the work shanti does to create those other lines ends up producing a cross that resembles an f1, then he is certainly doing a good job.

no, i dont think i could recognize an f1 vs something else, unless i had experience with the strain already, through multiple generations. and i dont.

to me, every plant is different. i dont see just 2,3,6 phenos in a strain.
i see every combination and they are all different, even if its in some small way.

How’s that it does not fit???

Are you blind or are you doing it on purpose?

 

[Elmer Bud]

Duly noted EB.

At least things are clear with you:
If I understood well, according to you Shanti has been lying to the members of his own forums since almost the beginning of his presence online as the quote on BW you mention in your post is from 2001.

I wanted to wait for Jack to answer my questions but since he seems to have run to the hill and I do not have much time to post the rest of the day

​

, here comes the meat:

In biology, hybrid can have two significations.

1- An hybrid between different species within the same genus (this is called an Interspecific hybrid).
>>> Apparently this the sole type of hybrid that both of you acknwledge.

2- An hybrid between different sub-species within a species (called an intraspecific hybrid).
>>> This is what Shanti does.

G `day P1

And ...
An F1 Hybrid is ?
Because that`s what we are discussing not the ones you listed above .

Widow was in its 1st gen an F1 . Two unrelated inbred lines mated .

Then from the off spring of it has been back crossed for multiple generations using males and females back to the P1 parents to be what it is today .



Thanks for sharin

EB .

 

[jack hairy]

we dont need to argue about it.
it is a minor detail.

if Hybridization is the merging of differing gene pools to create offspring.
species or subspecies, it doesnt matter.

the point that maybe we are both caught up on, but on opposite sides, is the unrelated or differing gene pools.
at what point do you consider a genepool to be different, or unrelated?

 

[Paky One]

G `day P1

And ...
An F1 Hybrid is ?
Because that`s what we are discussing not the ones you listed above.

An hybrid stays an hybrid Elmer...
Be it an interspecific- or an intraspecific-hybrid, the first generation is called F1.

we dont need to argue about it.
it is a minor detail.

if Hybridization is the merging of differing gene pools to create offspring.
species or subspecies, it doesnt matter

Are you really sure it is a minor detail?

Let’s consider things a bit differently:

Genus = cannabis
Species = "indica"/"sativa"/"ruderalis"
Sub-species = e.g. SSH, MH, NH ...

Can you dig it?

 

[jack hairy]

according to the ICNCP,

cannabis strains would be considered cultivars, not subspecies.

and again, whether it is considered a species, subspecies, cultivar, etc... does not change the key to the definition of f1 hybridization.
two differing or unrelated genepools.

if you take a brazillian sativa, and an indian hybrid, and bring them together, you may have an f1.
if you make two pairings of those f1's and make two different lines for f2, f3,f4, etc...
then bring them back together.
do they have a different genepool?
or are they all swimming in the same brazillian and indian hybrid lake?

 

[Ptree]

according to the ICNCP,

cannabis strains would be considered cultivars, not subspecies.

and again, whether it is considered a species, subspecies, cultivar, etc... does not change the key to the definition of f1 hybridization.
two differing or unrelated genepools.

if you take a brazillian sativa, and an indian hybrid, and bring them together, you may have an f1.
if you make two pairings of those f1's and make two different lines for f2, f3,f4, etc...
then bring them back together.
do they have a different genepool?
or are they all swimming in the same brazillian and indian hybrid lake?

I think, if you are linebreding two lines like this, then by crosing them together u get F1 again. From my logic.

 

[Paky One]

I think, if you are linebreding two lines like this, then by crosing them together u get F1 again. From my logic.

Finally someone with some common sense.

Cheers.

 

[jack hairy]

not if they are related, which they would be.

i think some of you need to go back and think about the hybridization aspect.
what is the purpose? what are the benefits?

if you bring together two related lines, will you get the same positive results?
no, because you already have some of those genes on both sides.
only if you breed the lines until they are homozygous, and then cross to another plant that does not have the same genes, will you get a heterozygous f1 plant.

 

[jack hairy]

here is some quick google info to help you understand.

Homozygous and Heterozygous
A pure trait is also known as a homozygous trait. Homozygous traits are either a combination of the same two dominant alleles or the same two recessive alleles. A hybrid trait is also known as a heterozygous trait, and is the pairing of a dominant and recessive allele.

so guys, please tell me how you will get the desired outcome by crossing related lines with the same genes?

 

[Ptree]

Aha, OK, so not F1 but Inbredline, its just inbredline?, I mean few post aerlier.

Hybridization must always be related to two differneces, plants with different characteristics, because there has to be change done somewhere to some degree. Then you can call it hybrid, because it have now traits, that wasnt there earlier.

maybe bad / example, if you grow numbers instead:
thats my logic now, so nothing briliant really

You got #1 but want #5
> so you find #10 somewhere, where it is.
and then your #1 cross that #10 -> youll get something between that, so in numbers u get #5 somewhere between those new numbers all those gonna be hybrids.
If you wanna inbred numbers that are only #5 you be inbreeding up to point there is only #5 left and then it cannot be hybrid anymore, because there will be no difference in numbers.

What if one wants to cross two very similar plants together. Then this is actually what is haunting me. Like if you want to breed two very similar sativas? There will be no way of crosing them, thus not posible making hybrid, but you can start inbreeding them, so they will mix in eventually?

oh where is my book, and how to speed up lufe time for plants to see

 

[jack hairy]

brilliant in its simplicity.

say selection could get you a range of +/- 1.

you cross #1 and #10 and have #5 f1's.
you select two different lines to work towards. 4 f1 plants, or 3, two females and 1 male
you make selections in each line back towards either of the two original parent types.(#1 and #10)
you make f2's then you select a 6 and a 4 out of the f2's.
then you make f3's and select a 7 and a 3.
then you make f4's and select an 8 and a 2.
9 and 1.
well it didnt work out perfectly, but you get the idea.
then in theory you could make a hybrid of the two lines and be back around #5

but thats just an example of the goal and not necessarily how it works with genes and selection. through selection based on observance, you will get homozygosity for a number of genes. but not all. lots of genes are hidden, that is you cant define its effect visually. until it is inbred to the point the entire genotype is homozygous.
then you do that with two lines made from the same genepool, and you may already be homozygous for certain traits between the two lines. and if your genes are homozygous, you will not get the hybrid, heterozygous effect.
and that is what it comes down to, wanting all the dominant genes on display in all plants of that generation.

 

[jack hairy]

and in knowing you are heterozygous, then in the f2's you will be able to find 50% heterozygous, 25% pure dominant and 25% double recessive trait plants.

if you are not heterozygous as f1, because the parents were already homozygous,
you may not get the double recessive traits at all and %'s for other combinations will be affected.

now something i dont understand is why it should matter if you are already homozygous in both parents for a dominant trait, then they will breed true for that trait in the offspring.
how is that any different than the dominant genes being expressed in the heterozygous plant, other than its effect on future breeding?
to me it seems like that would be the goal, to have that good gene locked down in homozygous form.

 

[Paky One]

Genefinder @ The Flying Dutchman helpdesk / cannabisworld circa 2001]

Thai-tanic X Swazi Safari ?

Give it a try, we ourselves have not made this cross. I think though that you will probably get a lot of Skunk types plants. The cross would contain two times the same father (Skunk #1), one swazi and one Thai. Logically this would mean that the traits exhibited in the F2 gen. would vary between these four types, the next trick is to select two mothers and one father (or two fathers and one mother although logistically this is more difficult) that fit your criteria and to begin TWO lines until you are satisfied (all the plants show all the traits that you chose in the beginning)with the results, then to bring the two lines together to bring vigour back into the cross, you have a one in four chances of a stable seed pool ( due to introducing two different lines together) that show all the previously selected positive traits.Its a lot of fun and you will be smoking a lot of different shit along the way so good luck. Chose males that are big, early. vigorous with short internode length that are generally the visually most impressive.[

 

[Paky One]

What did RCC wrote in 1981?

It looks like some should have paid more attention...

R.C. Clarke in: Marijuana Botany - An Advanced Study: The Propagation and Breeding of Distinctive Cannabis (1981)

The most common use of hybridization is to cross two outstanding varieties. Hybrids can be produced by crossing selected individuals from different high- potency strains of different origins, such as Thailand and Mexico. These two parents may share only the characteristic of high psycho activity and differ in nearly every other respect. From this great exchange of genes many phenotypes may appear in the F2 generations. From these offspring the breeder selects individuals that express the best characteristics of the parents. As an example, consider some of the offspring from the P1 (parental) cross: Mexico X Thailand. In this case, genes for high drug content are selected from both parents while other desirable characteristics can be selected from either one. Genes for large stature and early maturation are selected from the Mexican seed-parent, and genes for large calyx size and sweet floral aroma are selected from the Thai pollen parent. Many of the F1 offspring exhibit several of the desired characteristics. To further promote gene segregation, the plants most nearly approaching the ideal are crossed among themselves. The F2 generation is a great source of variation and recessive expression. In the F2 generation there are several individuals out of many that exhibit all five of the selected characteristics.

Now the process of inbreeding begins, using the desirable F2 parents.
If possible, two or more separate lines are started, never allowing them to interbreed. In this case one acceptable staminate plant is selected along with two pistillate plants (or vice versa). Crosses between the pollen parent and the two seed parents result in two lines of inheritance with slightly differing genetics, but each expressing the desired characteristics. Each generation will produce new, more acceptable combinations.

If two inbred strains are crossed, F1 hybrids will be less variable than if two hybrid strains are crossed. This comes from limiting the diversity of the gene pools in the two strains to be hybridized through previous inbreeding. Further independent selection and inbreeding of the best plants for several generations will establish two strains which are true-breeding for all the originally selected traits. This means that all the offspring from any parents in the strain will give rise to seedlings which all exhibit the selected traits. Successive inbreeding may by this time have resulted in steady decline in the vigor of the strain.

When lack of vigor interferes with selecting phenotypes for size and hardiness, the two separately selected strains can then be interbred to recombine nonselected genes and restore vigor. This will probably not interfere with breeding for the selected traits unless two different gene systems control the same trait in the two separate lines, and this is highly unlikely. Now the breeder has produced a hybrid strain that breeds true for large size, early maturation, large sweet-smelling calyxes, and high THC level. The goal has been reached!

 

[Paky One]

What did Nev post in the present thread!!!

[...]
A common practise in breeding IBLs is to put siblings into separate groups and inbreed them for 3-5 generations before bring them back together again. Each line can focus on one primary trait, allowing for more rapid advancement of the selected trait. Once the separate IBLs are put together again, only plants that possess all of the bred for characteristics are used for further breeding and the process begins again. Ideally, the recombined lines of the IBL should be sold at this point. Largely however, it's a moot point as few inbred lines are offered to the market by breeders. IBLs are used by breeders to produce hybrids or polyhybrids in order to combine as many of the dominant positive traits as possible in one variety. Hybrid vigour is the biggest contributing factor, when it comes to yield and my experience has shown that the market demands yield (whilst at the same time paying lip-service to the idea of pure strains). The pure strains that I put out in the past were not popular due to the fact that they couldn't compete against the hybrids in many respects.
[...]
N.

And by the way, NH has never been proposed other than as an intraspecific F1 hybrid...

How could it be otherwise???

 

[Paky One]

NH is considered something like a 3-way hybrid cross if Haze A and C are not related or considered a backcross hybrid if Haze A and C are siblings.

Crossing Nl5xHzA to HzC is linebreeding.

Linebreeding being a lighter form of inbreeding...

The males A & C were the "goods"; without them all would have been lost.
They were at best half brothers, but certainly shared a common ancestor so the inbreeding co-efficient to the haze ancestor in Nevil’s Haze should be at most 37.5%.

Thus, crossing NL5Hz to Hz again, gives you F2s.

From there different IBL lines were established and crossed in the end in order to obtain a F1 hybrid strain.

Peace.

 

[#NightMare#]

I think wat is being said is nevil put together the a5hz to the hzc male an in doing so created the first generation of wat became know as Thee Neville,'s haze. So this Neville's haze would be labeled as f1. But if I line breed two separate lines of Nevilles haze for four generations and select a female from one line an a male from the other, wud I be able to cal these two selections p1's and then cross them together to create a f1 Neville's again. The answer is no. Its wudnt be f1 Neville's haze. They should either be labeled then as a new f1 line with a different name or labeled as a ibl line ov Neville's haze with new p1 selections made from within the line. Or if I selected a new a5hz from seed an put it to the haze c male could I still call it f1 Neville's haze...it prbably shud be labeled as a recration of Neville's haze a new f1, that uses a newly selected p1 a5hz mother..or maybe it wud be beter to actually name it The f1 Nevil's haze which I think may be more appropriate