Breeding techniques

[GMT]

While you're right in your implication that many landrace populations contain intersex traits within their numbers, any population by the fact that its a population in its own right inbreeds. What I feel you're getting at is that the method of inbreeding is open pollenation rather than 1:1 breeding that some of us practice in our indoor hobby. And when you get open pollenation, the process of evolutionary pressure takes far longer to establish 2 distinct sexes. We can achieve in a number of generations what nature would take a thousand years or more to achieve.

 

[hempy]

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[joshuahazen]

Well that depends where you think we are at with cannabis historically! I'd say for too long people have being things in a bad way! lets look at intersexual prevalence in so called populations! lets look at the fact cannabis is an outcrossing species yet many seem to breed it in an inbred style! how many populations are truly dioecious?

Well I am referring specifically to the fact that what we are dealing with at this point "historically" is that commercial cannabis populations for the most part are polyhybrids in todays day and age. "historically" we are presented with a rare moment in time, a window if you will, when this plant is virtually legal in many parts of the 1st world, and who knows how long this window will remain open. Lets hope it remains open inevitably, and never closes.

The fact that cannabis is an outcrossing species, is one of the primary reasons why Burbanks methods are so relevant.




Intersexual prevalence in my opinion is primarily the result of so called "feminized breeding".
In 15 to 20 generations I have never had any serious intersex issues within my stock. could this be because I have never bred with hermaphrodites, whether chemically induced or otherwise? On the contrary, for the most part, I have eliminated them religiously from my breeding program.
Shanti and Nevil avoid feminized breeding for the most part, and we see very little intersex problems in their stock.


Standard breeding methods of line breeding have been used for at least hundreds of years, and in many cases for millenia, with all order of phylum from both plant and animal kingdoms, successfully. Why should weed be any different?

linebreeding involves all manner of successive inbreeding, to fix traits, followed by periods of outcrossing to retain genetic diversity within the given genepool.

Personally I don't believe one should go more than 3 generations(ieF4) into direct sibling inbreeding for any reason, with any organism, and generally I don't go past F3. Now if you have established several lines within your given strain, you can go many generations, before you have to introduce fresh blood, and this goes for so called "outcrossing species" of all types.

Just because a species is an outcrosser, does not mean it couldn't or shouldn't be inbred, although in most cases outcrossers are more susceptible to inbreeding depression. But I've got news for you. Most higher species of plants are outcrossers, and certainly many of Luther Burbank's great achievements were done with outcrossing species, so I don't see what the hangup is.


Of course we shouldn't over inbreed when breeding, this is obvious. But lets face it, when we are breeding typologically, inbreeding is the most powerful tool we have for fixing positive traits. With that said, radical techniques like cubing, or inbreeding for many generations without utilizing any multiple line strategies, are virtually guaranteed to destroy any line of any species within time.

Higher organisms like dogs, or horses, are much more strictly "outcrossing species", than any plant could ever be, and good linebreeding strategies, have kept them from becoming too inbred for at least several hundreds of years, and certainly as higher organisms, they are much more susceptable to inbreeding depression, and piling up negative alleles, than any plant could ever be.

Specialists or niche breeders are the key maintaining diversity while improving the plant from an agricultural perspective. It has always been a group effort. If you want to maintain the genetic diversity of your strains, or even better with landraces, through open pollination, then by all means, do so. You will be doing all of us a favor, and I applaud you for your diligence.

But don't knock those who are delving deep into IBLs(using proper, time tested strategies of linebreeding), and or Hybrid crosses in search of those special alleles that will improve the plant, as an agricultural product. The truth is both types of breeders are sorely needed, and Luther Burbank's strategies are among the best ever concieved, and proven, for the latter.

 

[GMT]

Hi Hempy, first of all I'd like to draw your attention to the word many that I used rather than the word all, that you are arguing against.
To be honest, I'm not sure how what you have smoked, affects the genetics of anything whether its a landrace crop or something that has be bred indoor, so I can't really respond to that.
As you say, nature is far from a controlled environment, and therefore your assertion that landrace populations would evolve faster, is erroneous. It is the process of poorer individuals breeding along side better individuals, or individuals that posses unique developments of genes, that hold the population back. It is also this process that protects the population as a whole from unhealthy mutations. In indoor populations where artificial selection is made, we can use 2 individuals that possess unusual traits, to create a population that moves forward in a way that in natural selection, would have the forces of other plants sharing their genes, holding the process of evolution back. Whereas in nature it would take many generations to spread a new mutation throughout an entire population, in the indoor environment, we can do that in one generation. Which is why I say that we can achieve the evolution of the indoor populations forward at a far greater rate than could be achieved naturally amongst a landrace population.

 

[hempy]

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[itsbenfun]

Dioecious refers to a plant population having separate male and female plants. That is, no individual plant of the population produces both microgametophytes (pollen) and megagametophytes (ovules); individual plants are either male or female.[5] From Greek for "two households". [Individual plants are not called dioecious; they are either gynoecious (female plants) or androecious (male plants).]

Subdioecious, a tendency in some dioecious populations to produce monoecious plants. The population produces normally male or female plants but some are hermaphroditic, with female plants producing some male or hermaphroditic flowers or vice versa. The condition is thought to represent a transition between hermaphroditism and dioecy.
^^^Wikkipedia

Which is it? It certainly isnt what i was brought up beleiving...

From MJ Botany:
Cannabis is a dioecious plant, which means that the male and female flowers develop on separate plants, although monoecious examples with both sexes on one plant are found. The development of branches containing flowering organs varies greatly between males and females: the male flowers hang in long, loose, multi-branched, clustered limbs up to 30 centimeters (12 inches) long, while the female flowers are tightly crowded between small leaves.

Cultivators wait until actual flowers form to positively determine the sex of Cannabis

Many factors contribute to determining the sexuality of a flowering Cannabis plant. Under average conditions with a normal inductive photoperiod, Cannabis will bloom and produce approximately equal numbers of pure staminate and pure pistillate plants with a few hermaphrodites (both sexes on the same plant). Under conditions of extreme stress, such as nutrient excess or deficiency, mutilation, and altered light cycles, populations have been shown to depart greatly from the expected one-to-one staminate to pistillate ratio.

Just prior to dehiscence, the pollen nucleus divides to produce a small reproductive cell accompanied by a large vegetative cell, both of which are contained within the mature pollen grain. Germination occurs 15 to 20 minutes after contact with a pistil. As the pollen tube grows the vegetative cell remains in the pollen grain while the generative cell enters the pollen tube and migrates toward the ovule. The generative cell divides into two gametes (sex cells) as it travels the length of the pollen tube.

^^^ That last paragraph gets me. NOBODY KNOWS what happens here. Some funky thing called sex determination in a being that is mid-evolution.

Is there a true 'Hermaphrodite' Cannabis plant? Not anymore...

 

[JessE]

but reality is we dont know as much as some of us posting on the board proclaim to.

Hi Hempy,
As you know, Im a Scientist! And there for, naturally, I know quite a bit more about this subject than all of you! Thats right Hempy, including you too! Sure Ive never posted a grow before, I only registered at the forum yesterday, and nobody has a clue who I am (or do they? ) but you should just take my word as an anon internet user that I am the real deal Dr. Green Thumb! Thats right, B real was rapping about me in that song! Better check yourself kid...



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Now considering every time a subject having anything remotely to do with breeding comes up, I vigorously search google for an answer that I like the most and then re-word it here at the forum to sound like its my own knowledge, I am safe in telling you that I know far more than you could ever imagine hempster!

Yall simply have no idea what you're talking about, and thats that! And once my master plan falls into place, that is, posting in this thread a thousand times for months on end, proclaiming how much of an idiot you all are (unless you agree with me, then you're cool lol), I will be ready to sell seed with the big boys! Shanti, better scoot over...cause there's a new Chief in town boooyyyy!

 

[itsbenfun]

Everytime i hear that song i KNOW they are rapping bout my garden...
Watch out scotty, nevil... There is a new cat in town
LMFAO!!!!!!

 

[joshuahazen]

LOL!
That's tellin em.

I wish I knew half of what Hempy knows.

I wouldn't have even been able to get my shit to germinate if it weren't for Hempy.

 

[GMT]

If all land race populations held intersex traits .

you can see that you didnt argue many, you argued all. Which is why I drew your attention to my usage of the word many rather than all.

the week culled in nature? who is doing the culling? Natural selection isnt about a one off event, its about the offspring ratios between those individuals that have an advantage and disadvantage. This process takes many generations rather than the single generational cull that does take place in the indoor environment.

And Hempy, I havent been arsey, lets not start that game.

 

[hempy]

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[Unclepeter]

Intersexual prevalence in my opinion is primarily the result of so called "feminized breeding".
In 15 to 20 generations I have never had any serious intersex issues within my stock. could this be because I have never bred with hermaphrodites, whether chemically induced or otherwise? On the contrary, for the most part, I have eliminated them religiously from my breeding program.
Shanti and Nevil avoid feminized breeding for the most part, and we see very little intersex problems in their stock.

Utter nonsense.. its nothing to do with "feminized breeding" unless you consider Rodelization as a technique!.. its to do with numbers plain and simple... the fitness of the population!!

put simply how does it purge the load?

linebreeding involves all manner of successive inbreeding, to fix traits, followed by periods of outcrossing to retain genetic diversity within the given genepool.

thats the key for the outcrosser right there... and the way to do it is not thru 1:1 matings....

Well I am referring specifically to the fact that what we are dealing with at this point "historically" is that commercial cannabis populations for the most part are polyhybrids in todays day and age. "historically" we are presented with a rare moment in time, a window if you will, when this plant is virtually legal in many parts of the 1st world, and who knows how long this window will remain open. Lets hope it remains open inevitably, and never closes.

The fact that cannabis is an outcrossing species, is one of the primary reasons why Burbanks methods are so relevant.

Polys are not the way to go foward IMO... perhaps a better plan is collect sim genotypes together to form families with them ie different stocks of Hindu Kush, Bluebery etc..

Personally I don't believe one should go more than 3 generations(ieF4) into direct sibling inbreeding for any reason, with any organism, and generally I don't go past F3. Now if you have established several lines within your given strain, you can go many generations, before you have to introduce fresh blood, and this goes for so called "outcrossing species" of all types.

and if you have unrelated strains with many lines you have many options for a TRUE F1 hybrid.....


@ itsbenfun cannabis has probably been back and forth in the thousands of years its been here!!! tell me do you want the dioecious plants or the mono ?

its sub-dioecious...

 

[Unclepeter]

If all land race populations held intersex traits the modern lines would to as the ancestors of the modern geno pool are those Land race populations.

Inbreeding has been done for a long time i have smoked many lines inbreed for 30 years at lest and i can tell you there lacking nothing go look at kanga mullum that is just one inbreed line.

The plants growing out doors in the wild would evolve faster than they would indoors nature is far from a controlled environment as the in door grow space is and few seasons are the same few strains are pure that people grow now days they grow modern hybrids consisting of 2 or 3 different strains in each line that were breed 1 or a few generations before you got them as f1s.

but then you are against selfing and gynoecious plant breeding schemes? how odd

 

[Unclepeter]

While you're right in your implication that many landrace populations contain intersex traits within their numbers, any population by the fact that its a population in its own right inbreeds. What I feel you're getting at is that the method of inbreeding is open pollenation rather than 1:1 breeding that some of us practice in our indoor hobby. And when you get open pollenation, the process of evolutionary pressure takes far longer to establish 2 distinct sexes. We can achieve in a number of generations what nature would take a thousand years or more to achieve.

Yes it would take longer, but consider from a fitness point of view it would be better.... you could then inbred rapidly thru selfing with the line intact and fit....

 

[GUANOIZDASHIZNIT]

Hi Hempy,
As you know, Im a Scientist! And there for, naturally, I know quite a bit more about this subject than all of you! Thats right Hempy, including you too! Sure Ive never posted a grow before, I only registered at the forum yesterday, and nobody has a clue who I am (or do they? ) but you should just take my word as an anon internet user that I am the real deal Dr. Green Thumb! Thats right, B real was rapping about me in that song! Better check yourself kid...



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Now considering every time a subject having anything remotely to do with breeding comes up, I vigorously search google for an answer that I like the most and then re-word it here at the forum to sound like its my own knowledge, I am safe in telling you that I know far more than you could ever imagine hempster!

Yall simply have no idea what you're talking about, and thats that! And once my master plan falls into place, that is, posting in this thread a thousand times for months on end, proclaiming how much of an idiot you all are (unless you agree with me, then you're cool lol), I will be ready to sell seed with the big boys! Shanti, better scoot over...cause there's a new Chief in town boooyyyy!

How much did we know about cbd as an anti psychotic if it wasn`t for scientists. I gues shanti would`ve just bred high thc plants instead of looking at the cbd crew project. The cbd knowledge didnt come from observation of a breeder. We are going to have high cbd strains due to scientific knowledge. W e learned from the cannabis plant about our endo cannabinoid system(thanks cannabis) but it couldn`t have been done without science.
The terms that is used to describe cannabis and plants are all scientific words not words from a breeder.


Professor Roger Pertwee

This man made me understand how similar cannabinoids and endo cannabinoids work

people can breed better medicinal plants if they know what cannabinoids do to the body



Thanks for your email.



In reply to your questions:

(1) there is evidence that anandamide (when released endogenously) is actually anti-psychotic – presumably because it is not released everywhere in the brain and so activates only some receptors (administered THC will act on all cannabinoid receptors in the body – flooding the whole of the endocannabinoid system).



(2) anandamide taken e.g. in cocoa would target all its receptors and so might be psychoactive – though anandamide is very unstable and also rapidly metabolized in the brain and elsewhere



(3) is olivetolic acids any relation to olive oil – I don’t know for sure – but think not.



(4) I do not think that THCA has any significant psychoactivity – in which case it presumably is not metabolized much/at all to THC in the body.



I hope that is of some help.



Please note that I am about to go off to a cannabinoid conference and will be away from my office until Monday week.



Regards,



Roger Pertwee



Hi Dr Pertwee,
Thanks very much for your response.


I f you had anandamide and thc sitting next to each other is there a difference in structure? Could anandamide act in the same way as thc if ingested orally. If evidence shows that anadamide (when released endogenously) is anti psychotic then does it have similar effects as cbd but with more affinity for the cb1 receptor. When anandamide and thc interact is it the case that anandamide cant combat the psychoactive effect of thc because anandamide metabolises faster than thc.

Is 2ag related to cbd just like anandaide and thc?

Is cannabinoids an endophyte and if so how could that explain the endogenous cannabinoid system.

Thanks for your reply i am very greatful as i know you must be a busy man hope you dont mind someone with no qualifications asking you questions.

Is gw pharmaceuticals going to have anti epileptic medicine in the near future as cannabinoids is the only safe medicine for me i feel

thank you




Here are my replies:



If you had anandamide and thc sitting next to each other is there a difference in structure?

Yes their structures are different



Could anandamide act in the same way as thc if ingested orally.

Unlikely as anandamide is rapidly metabolized



If evidence shows that anadamide (when released endogenously) is anti psychotic then does it have similar effects as cbd but with more affinity for the cb1 receptor.

The modes of action of CBD (unknown mechanism vs psychosis) and anandamide are different



When anandamide and thc interact is it the case that anandamide cant combat the psychoactive effect of thc because anandamide metabolises faster than thc.

There is no evidence that anandamide combats the psychoactive effect of THC

Is 2ag related to cbd just like anandaide and thc? No

Is cannabinoids an endophyte and if so how could that explain the endogenous cannabinoid system. What is an endophyte?



If anandamide is anti psychotic(when released endogenously) and found in high levels in schizophrenia but lower levels with severe cases of scizophrenia then what phyto cannabinoid would do the same as anandamide would it be thc(psychoactive) or cbd ( anti psychotic). If we have a bang to the head or in my case a seizure would my brain/body produce 2ag to nurture me back to health and if my body was high in thc would this be prevented. I look through scientific research and try to put it into my own words but i have been using cannabinoids for 16 years and i listen to what my body tells me and it is usually spot on! I know what posions me and what makes me better. My friends all are drinkers and get very unwell at weekends they call it a hangover where as i call it poisoning i kepp telling them to listen to what your body tells you!..

An endo(within) phyte(plant) is an organism, especially a fungus or microorganism, that lives inside a plant, in a parasitic or mutualistic relationship.

I looked into the possiblity of cannabinods being an endo phyte after reading a book called Hemp Diseases And Pests but i shall wait to scientific research comes out until i look more into it. Its a very plausible theory but as i said. Where would that leave our endo cannabinoid system if cannabinods were an endo phyte?

endo phyte
Endophyte - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Here are my replies:



If anandamide is anti psychotic(when released endogenously) and found in high levels in schizophrenia but lower levels with severe cases of scizophrenia then what phyto cannabinoid would do the same as anandamide would it be thc(psychoactive) or cbd ( anti psychotic).



Answer: Anandamide and THC (but not CBD) share the ability to activate cannabinoid receptors. Anandamide and THC also have other actions, some of which they do not share - but whether any of these are involved in schizophrenia is not known. The effect on cannabinoid receptors that exogenously administered THC and endogenously released anandamide have are likely to be different. Thus endogenous anandamide will be released selectively onto just some of the cannabinoid receptors in our bodies whereas exogenously administered THC is expected to active all the receptors. CBD and anandamide are not thought to share any pharmacological actions - e.g. anandamide activates cannabinoid receptors whereas CBD blocks them in a manner still to be identified. CBD may be anti-psychotic because it blocks the uptake into nerves of adenosine.



If we have a bang to the head or in my case a seizure would my brain/body produce 2ag to nurture me back to health and if my body was high in thc would this be prevented.



Answer: There is evidence that the endogenous cannabinoid system protects against epilepsy by selectively releasing anandamide and/or 2-AG. Exogenously administered THC has mixed pro-convulsant and anti-convulsant activity in animals.



Its all about the cannabinoids and without this man and raphael mechoulam

Its not the be all n end all of cannabis breeding but an understanding of phytos and endos would produce a better MEDICINE.


I`M MORE INTERESTED IN CANNABINOIDS AND ENDOS THAN THE SMELL OR LOOK OR OR HOW STONED YOU GET OFF A PLANT.


i GUESS WHAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING HERE IS ALL ABOUT PHENOTYPE GENOTYPE AND A DIALLED IN ENVIRO. TO some people extreme adaptation can`t happen because its its just a pheno. I think every seeded mum must have some sort of epigenetic inheritence or maybe its all just genetic inheritence!

 

[hempy]

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[Unclepeter]

Whats so odd to understand Pete ? maybe you can explane how selfing a plant is the same as 1:1 breeding with a male it is not the same is it and the males role is a very important roll that few pushing fem seeds are willing to bring up or fail to understand from were i sit.



sex as an effective way to create genetic variation in the offspring, which allows for a faster adaptation to environmental variability (for example, Burt, 2000); these models rely mostly on the effects of recombination. (2) Sex as a restoration mechanism for damage of DNA strands, or mutational or epimutational change of the genome; here the main arguments are that meiosis would provide a tool for repair of double-strand breaks (for example, Bernstein et al., 1988; Bernstein, 1998) or would restore DNA methylation patterns (for example, Holliday, 1988). Recombination would also avoid a long-term accumulation of disadvantageous mutations; an asexual lineage cannot produce offspring with a lower mutational load than any previous generation (Muller’s ratchet). Moreover, recombination can break up negative epistasis and thus allows for a more efficient purging of deleterious mutations (Kondrashov, 1988, 1993). (3) A third group of hypotheses regards sex as a consequence of phylogenetic fixation, that is, a feature inherited from ancestors that we cannot get rid of. This model does not seek an advantage of sexual reproduction per se, but regards it as a ‘imperative relic’ inherited from eukaryotic ancestry (Margulis and Sagan, 1986). It exceeds the topic of this paper to review all previous hypotheses. The comprehensive review by Birdsell and Wills (2003) outlines pros and cons of all contemporary models.


Empirical data from extant asexual organisms draw attention to some hitherto overlooked factors, such as the importance of shifts of ploidy levels. In this study, I wish to integrate these factors into new theory, which combines previous ideas in a framework of evolutionary history and increasing complexity of organisms. Origin, maintenance and constraints of loss of sex have different reasons and selective forces (Figure 1). Meiosis-out-crossing cycle may have evolved as a DNA restoration mechanism of double-strand damage, disadvantageous mutations and epimutations. This restoration mechanism became a main advantage for multicellular organisms, which start their development from a single cell. The main advantage of sex for complex organisms with high levels of cell differentiation is probably the alternation of a haploid selection phase and a diploid duration period, which is buffered against effects of deleterious recessive mutations. The buffered diploid period becomes predominant for growth and cell differentiation in eukaryotes with complex bodies (Figure 2). Secondary features that ensure mating compatibility help to establish sexual reproduction. Once sex is functionally and phylogenetically fixed, the loss of sex requires a combination of individually deleterious changes (Figure 3). Constraints of losses of sex are reviewed for animals and seed plants as evolutionarily advanced groups. Maintenance of meiotic sex is easier than the shift to asexuality and various mechanisms have evolved to balance costs of sex in eukaryotes. Sexual reproduction is consequently seen as a strategy to improve the quality of nuclear DNA in the offspring, which is crucial for the viability of complex organisms. Some suggestions for future research will hopefully stimulate thoughts and research on hitherto overlooked factors for explaining the ‘paradox of sex’.

when you copy and paste please cite....

http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v103/n6/pdf/hdy200985a.pdf

A.) Sex does not need to be just M/F mating.... Fem to Fem can be fun!
B.) Selfing is inbreeding
C.) it really doesn't matter if you are using a male or a Female

how many of the males are really males? how are you confirming they are male? I'm of the belief the "male" has a lot of probs....

Recombination would also avoid a long-term accumulation of disadvantageous mutations; an asexual lineage cannot produce offspring with a lower mutational load than any previous generation (Muller’s ratchet). Moreover, recombination can break up negative epistasis and thus allows for a more efficient purging of deleterious mutations

least that was in the copy and paste.... the more recombination (not a 1:1 mating) helps to purge deleterious mutations....

 

[hempy]

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[Unclepeter]

No thats not it its from A combinational theory for maintenance of sex
A combinational theory for maintenance of sex



A.) Sex does not need to be just M/F mating.... Fem to Fem can be fun!

Well lesbians sure wont argue that fact Pete but when were talking cannabis and breeding of cannabis sexual reproduction has many benefits were asexual dont .

B.) Selfing is inbreeding No Pete it is not the same it is a form of breeding Selfing is only using a female to pollinate the same female be it from reversing it to make male pollen or it does it its self by naturally producing a hormone few seam to understand as yet and then it produces a few male pollen sacks to producing male flowers all over the plant being what we call hermaphrodite.

Inbreeding Pete is when you use a female and a male of the same strain and breed them together and the male you know that has all the good features from purging and all the rest i posted on above big difference.

C.) it really doesn't matter if you are using a male or a Female

It does matter Pete and it matters a lot.

how many of the males are really males? how are you confirming they are male? I'm of the believe the "male" has a lot of probs....

The only problems i see is people claiming to hold all the answers yet they dont have a clue nature does not do something for no reason.

Are you kidding me Pete how am i confirming i have a male come one this is becoming stupid now.

Go research the importance of a male.

its the same paper.. I've read maynard smith and I know you are talking shit!. the only stupid thing is time and time again we have the same argument... and your logic is flawed.

if I'd known we were gonna keep dancing to the same tune I'd of put the right shoes on!

 

[hempy]

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