Grail: The Ultimate Haze Hybrid
- Thread starter Nevil
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modest marsupial
New member
lol its fine to rely on the man but who else is using their head and doing the exact same of better than nevil can?
i mean with such a thread, one that nevil and kanga havent frequented for a while, why havent others taken it upon themselves to keep it going?
i mean at the very least i wanna hear "super dank cut" x my nevils haze or so what. i dont think nevil created this thread so he could single handedly create the grail with an audience of onlookers. i think it was a bit more.
i think many are limited with space but our numbers are the key. find ur 3 best strains n cross them together left right n center, thats a step forward.
strain B x strain A
strain C x strain A
strain A x strain B
strain C x strain B
strain A x strain C
strain B x strain C
+ mayb
A x A
B x B
C x C
for the future stocks.
i think what nev was trying to teach us ( and what no one followed his lead is, selecting a good nevils haze male to an exceptional female). i think its a good goal for all of us to find a good breeding nevils haze male and a way for all of us to make quality seeds all the time expanding the haze gene pool.
if i wanted to do anything other than telling people to breed there own seeds i'd be telling people to find the best male from a pack of nevils haze and hit your best cuts youve ever found. its just a simple good cut x good male scenario. i would def even do the "good cut x black widow".
i'll come back to these internet forums one day and it will be a bit more about 1 sobeit breeder crosses vs anothers. if you all think 2 men can out-compete the rest of the world you are sadly mistaken, it is only a matter of determination n luck..
BRING ON THE GRAIL, sobeit whatever form it arrives in.
i mean with such a thread, one that nevil and kanga havent frequented for a while, why havent others taken it upon themselves to keep it going?
i mean at the very least i wanna hear "super dank cut" x my nevils haze or so what. i dont think nevil created this thread so he could single handedly create the grail with an audience of onlookers. i think it was a bit more.
i think many are limited with space but our numbers are the key. find ur 3 best strains n cross them together left right n center, thats a step forward.
strain B x strain A
strain C x strain A
strain A x strain B
strain C x strain B
strain A x strain C
strain B x strain C
+ mayb
A x A
B x B
C x C
for the future stocks.
i think what nev was trying to teach us ( and what no one followed his lead is, selecting a good nevils haze male to an exceptional female). i think its a good goal for all of us to find a good breeding nevils haze male and a way for all of us to make quality seeds all the time expanding the haze gene pool.
if i wanted to do anything other than telling people to breed there own seeds i'd be telling people to find the best male from a pack of nevils haze and hit your best cuts youve ever found. its just a simple good cut x good male scenario. i would def even do the "good cut x black widow".
i'll come back to these internet forums one day and it will be a bit more about 1 sobeit breeder crosses vs anothers. if you all think 2 men can out-compete the rest of the world you are sadly mistaken, it is only a matter of determination n luck..
BRING ON THE GRAIL, sobeit whatever form it arrives in.
C
coop
Guest
people don't want to actually work with the plants. If they did they would buy some real books on breeding not try to follow charts as such. 
modest marsupial
New member
people don't want to actually work with the plants. If they did they would buy some real books on breeding not try to follow charts as such.
yer i know wat u mean....
but selecting to create a great smoke doesnt seem beyond the rest of us...
bit of a "let us see wat the idiots do scenarios if u ask me'...
C
coop
Guest
i agree, i don't think that it would be beyond anyone
but its obvious people would rather talk about hypotheticals then do the hard work and find them.
but its obvious people would rather talk about hypotheticals then do the hard work and find them.
jack hairy
Banned
I dont know what you guys are talking about, there are plenty of people out there making the best they can already.
some of the haze crosses can only be made by nevil and shanti, as they are the only ones with those plants.
nh x anything is not the grail,
it takes a few special plants.
ive made a couple crosses using nh males, and while im sure they are good,
im not going to go through them until after i go through seeds from nevil and shanti.
i KNOW they are better at this than i am, even though i could get lucky...
some of the haze crosses can only be made by nevil and shanti, as they are the only ones with those plants.
nh x anything is not the grail,
it takes a few special plants.
ive made a couple crosses using nh males, and while im sure they are good,
im not going to go through them until after i go through seeds from nevil and shanti.
i KNOW they are better at this than i am, even though i could get lucky...
C
coop
Guest
Jack if i was looking for stock for a true breeding project, Trust me I would not be looking at polyhybrid f1's for my parents.
Yosemite Sam
Active member
Hey JH,
I'm working towards something like that.
What i would really like to create is G13HzAxHzC but i would need some pollen from Shanti's Haze male C to do so and i just don't know if that is a possible route to follow. We'll see.
What i'll be looking for in the near futurte are some great 5HzC and NH studs to cross them with the G13HzA, not to make a grail but to keep the hobby going.
I'll leave the grail making up to the grail makers.
Respect!
YS
jack hairy
Banned
i believe it says back there in the thread somewhere, they reversed males and judged on look and smell. not sure if they smoked any though.
Nevil did smoke pure haze C when he reversed it.
im working on rereading this whole thread,
So much information its hard to catch it all in one run.
Nevil did smoke pure haze C when he reversed it.
im working on rereading this whole thread,
So much information its hard to catch it all in one run.
Hi Coop,
What if the polyhybrid f1's were line bred to common ancestors on both sides of the pedigree? I'm interested in your thoughts.
Nevil has done a lot of experimentation and created his share of IBLs, yet sees line breeding as the way forward and the method by which he hopes to produce his best work yet.
For a while I believed the best means would be create or source two distinct IBLs then cross them to produce a true F1 with the idea of uniformity and hybrid vigour in mind. This is all good if the results meet your expectations but if they don't, you need to turn to other lines to find the right combinations but good IBLs aren't easy to find and take a long time to create.
Once Nevil started posting and making his knowledge and experience accessible to us all, I started to research the things he was telling us. Now I've come around to the idea that line breeding is a good way to go.
My reasoning is based on the fact that if done well, it will give you relatively uniform progeny with good hybrid vigour but it also offers the ability to finely tune the results via the individuals selected for each successive mating. When the new individuals are from a very similar genetic background, the results are more predictable and the progeny remain relatively uniform. If you don't arrive at the results you're after, you have options to breed to other individuals from within the same line. If you want to add a trait that doesn't exist in the line you're working with, you can add it via careful outcrossing.
In the end, there are no right or wrong ways - some will give better results in specific scenarios but at this stage I'm convinced line breeding is a very fitting general method when it comes to cannabis.
I'm always open to new ideas and better ways though so I'd like to hear what others think on the matter.
C
Chana Masala
Guest
High Mark, I know you asked Coop, but was hoping to share a thought if i may.
I think Busy nailed it with regard to adding solid landrace to polybreed lines, or worked lines that are ibl, or at least f1 to create wonderful new works with landrace strains being the overall tone and not the f1 or ibl. Recombining and selecting for those characteristics, I believe is what the grail is to me. To a large seed bank, it would probably be, again like busy mentioned, about commerce for what the market thinks it needs.
I am starting to realize that we are lucky to be in cannabis, as many great breeders have already molded our bricks. So now we can just go to the hardware store and purchase the colour, type, size and finish of the brick, as we move to building our foundation. Also brings us to another question, and are all bricks made the same, or are all contractors/builders the same
, sorry another thread.
I guess it makes the intial creation easier. Its a catch 22 though, like many, we want to create something that has not been done before, but difficult when the p1 is famous on their own, and also initially the labour of somebody else. Which I think brings us back to selecting re 1:1 matting's using p1s landrace x foundation p1s. I am reading a journal now on NH crosses to cali lines, and the f2's are fire. And also early reports from Kanga's journals.
I agree with you Mark, selection is key to continue, and stabilize what one feels they are looking for. I look at mattings and p1's as tones or colours now, or notes and musical instruments. Makes breeding for me clearer to understand. I still don't think it is so easy in practice. But with many plants from SB, it will make deducting a hell of a lot easier.
One,
CM
I think Busy nailed it with regard to adding solid landrace to polybreed lines, or worked lines that are ibl, or at least f1 to create wonderful new works with landrace strains being the overall tone and not the f1 or ibl. Recombining and selecting for those characteristics, I believe is what the grail is to me. To a large seed bank, it would probably be, again like busy mentioned, about commerce for what the market thinks it needs.
I am starting to realize that we are lucky to be in cannabis, as many great breeders have already molded our bricks. So now we can just go to the hardware store and purchase the colour, type, size and finish of the brick, as we move to building our foundation. Also brings us to another question, and are all bricks made the same, or are all contractors/builders the same
, sorry another thread.I guess it makes the intial creation easier. Its a catch 22 though, like many, we want to create something that has not been done before, but difficult when the p1 is famous on their own, and also initially the labour of somebody else. Which I think brings us back to selecting re 1:1 matting's using p1s landrace x foundation p1s. I am reading a journal now on NH crosses to cali lines, and the f2's are fire. And also early reports from Kanga's journals.
I agree with you Mark, selection is key to continue, and stabilize what one feels they are looking for. I look at mattings and p1's as tones or colours now, or notes and musical instruments. Makes breeding for me clearer to understand. I still don't think it is so easy in practice. But with many plants from SB, it will make deducting a hell of a lot easier.
One,
CM
jack hairy
Banned
in my eyes, a plant is a plant.
if it has traits you want, then it can be bred to something else and select from there.
it does not matter whether it is designated as a landrace, ibl, or hybrid.
the traits are there, the way they dependably combine is the only issue.
obviously a hybrid's offspring will vary more, but does that speak about quality?
no, i think there can be great variation, and a great overall quality obtained from hybrids crossed. It may take more plants to search through to find the mix you want, but it will be in there.
if it has traits you want, then it can be bred to something else and select from there.
it does not matter whether it is designated as a landrace, ibl, or hybrid.
the traits are there, the way they dependably combine is the only issue.
obviously a hybrid's offspring will vary more, but does that speak about quality?
no, i think there can be great variation, and a great overall quality obtained from hybrids crossed. It may take more plants to search through to find the mix you want, but it will be in there.
C
Chana Masala
Guest
I agree with you for the most part, but not all plants are created equal. That is why I grow cannabis and not tomatos, and Mr. Nice and not greenhouse. Figuratively speaking and try to read within your context here.
To me it matters. If you are breeding, there are varying degrees of where you are going to start. i.e. are you starting from scratch, are your combing off dutch lines, or are you recombination of F1's. It makes a difference in the amount of secltion, and mattings, backcrossing, progeny testing, for that matter, the work a breeder has to put into a line and their goals from the project. If you do not take the matting serious and put some foresight into it, your are blindly grabbing at traits you can not be conclusive too, because again, not all plants are created equal.
They are all hybrid when combing foundation to landrace seeds. Or F1's to a non related F1, etc. etc.
Coop just basically stated above to you, that if you wanted more from breeding project, it is our belief that you would not breed polyinbreed f1's to polyinbreed f1's. Like NH to BW. For the hobbyst, sure why not, but for a breeder, they are not really breeding now are they? So why not take a page form the grail. When on vacation, bring back some seed from your travel and then hit with NH or BW and see what can be had. I think that is the difference, and where breeding and hobby breeding differ.
Jackie where are these plants coming from mate? It matters to me, and if it means you spending years on something that most likely has already been done, I will opt to take a combination form a reputable source, and then build or recombine to landrace.
Again not so easy in real world practice.
Take care,
CM
jack hairy
Banned
it does not matter where you start, what the plant is.
you can breed to a goal.
for all you know, all cannabis plants are hybrids that have been ibl'd to where they are now.
id bet on it.
polyinbreed is not a term, NH and BW are not polyinbreeds.
they are poly hybrids.
so you understand, most if not all plants being used to create the grail are hybrids.
I dont see this as a problem, more of a benefit of greater diversity in genetics, greater chance for a new combination never seen before.
you can breed to a goal.
for all you know, all cannabis plants are hybrids that have been ibl'd to where they are now.
id bet on it.
polyinbreed is not a term, NH and BW are not polyinbreeds.
they are poly hybrids.
so you understand, most if not all plants being used to create the grail are hybrids.
I dont see this as a problem, more of a benefit of greater diversity in genetics, greater chance for a new combination never seen before.
C
Chana Masala
Guest
Again Jackie, I dont think I get you mate, we are taking about serious breeding here, and thoughts of the grail. If you read the grail thread, Nevil gives a clear goal of where he is starting. NH, HzA, thai and then deciding factor, MM which is considered another version of Hz. So I am going to have to disagree with you. You need to know where you come from before you can see where you are going.
All cannabis, like humans are hybrids. But back to all plants being equal is not correct, but like humans, there are some that are puerer or untampered with, so for the most part breeders call these landrace and not hybridized by western breeding but by local farming and natural methods. You can not take nature as so cut and dry, black and white.
In the end they are hybrids, but they were first inbreed to create hybrids. NH and BW didn't just appear on the earth. They were breed with thought and effort, and a little luck
. You can see it for what you wish, as I can. This is why I refereed to polyinbredlines(foundation)x landrace. I hope you see what I mean now.In my eye they are Adam and Eve, for a breeder to build foundation on and outcross to land race, at least in the context of 2012. Look at busy's Cloudcatcher strain.
They are hybrid x's to landrace strains. I.e. MM, and thai, etc. I gave an example in my last post to you. that is why if you are lucky to grow nevil and kanga's gear, you maybe be able to see controlled diversity in some lines, and wide open pallets for you to choose in others. This can also be said for SB's lines.
CM
jack hairy
Banned
They are not just hybrid x landrace.
that would be foolish to assume.
Nevil is working on finding the best he can.
if it has to be hybrid x hybrid, so be it.
maybe some get too hung up on there terms,
hybrid, inbred, landrace....
at some level it can be simplified to great plants x great plants.
that would be foolish to assume.
Nevil is working on finding the best he can.
if it has to be hybrid x hybrid, so be it.
maybe some get too hung up on there terms,
hybrid, inbred, landrace....
at some level it can be simplified to great plants x great plants.
C
Chana Masala
Guest
Jackie, you are assuming mate.
You asked the question with regard to grail. I only mention what combination they appear to be using. As to the NH that seems to be the P1, or Hybrid (NH) being crossed to for the sake of the argument to landrace (MM, Thai, ect), it is just my rebuttal to your whole argument and the last few hours of discussion, and what goes back around to Busy's point of seeking P1's in foundation f1 to land race strains. And starting with quality plants, which you disagreed is not necessary and made claims of plants are plants.
At least that is what I got from your comments. I could be wrong and it wont be the last time, I am sure.
Agreed, terms I am learning and maybe incorrect, but my gut is telling me I am not off by to far.
Take care,
CM
You asked the question with regard to grail. I only mention what combination they appear to be using. As to the NH that seems to be the P1, or Hybrid (NH) being crossed to for the sake of the argument to landrace (MM, Thai, ect), it is just my rebuttal to your whole argument and the last few hours of discussion, and what goes back around to Busy's point of seeking P1's in foundation f1 to land race strains. And starting with quality plants, which you disagreed is not necessary and made claims of plants are plants.
At least that is what I got from your comments. I could be wrong and it wont be the last time, I am sure.
Agreed, terms I am learning and maybe incorrect, but my gut is telling me I am not off by to far.
Take care,
CM
jack hairy
Banned
I think you misinterpreted what i said,
certainly did not mean you could take any old plant and turn it to gold.
just that if its exceptional in quality, it MAY not matter if it is stable.
what matters is if those traits get passed to the progeny and the frequency of the desired traits to pop up.
does not matter if its NH x MM or NH x MM/oaxacan or MM/kariba
one is hybrid to hybrid, one is hybrid to landrace, one is landrace x landrace.
i dont care, give me the better one.
do you know which one is better?
thanks for the disscussion CM, i like to think about others views.
certainly did not mean you could take any old plant and turn it to gold.
just that if its exceptional in quality, it MAY not matter if it is stable.
what matters is if those traits get passed to the progeny and the frequency of the desired traits to pop up.
does not matter if its NH x MM or NH x MM/oaxacan or MM/kariba
one is hybrid to hybrid, one is hybrid to landrace, one is landrace x landrace.
i dont care, give me the better one.
do you know which one is better?
thanks for the disscussion CM, i like to think about others views.
C
Chana Masala
Guest
Same to you Jackie. Thanks for sharing and moving forward.
Damn mate, I have no clue as to which one is better, though there are a couple that have caught my eye...
I guess we got to germinate them and see for ourselves.
Have a good day,
CM
Damn mate, I have no clue as to which one is better, though there are a couple that have caught my eye...
I guess we got to germinate them and see for ourselves.
Have a good day,
CM
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