Inbreeding Neville's Haze

[BullDogDad]

Is there anybody on the board strictly inbreeding this strain? I'd like to know more about this topic. Where can this strain be taken when strictly inbred?

 

[longhorn]

if i recall correctly, neville claimed it diminishes it for some reason. I would prefer to outcross it to other killer unrelated lines. But I am not speaking from experience.

 

[Mark]

Where can this strain be taken when strictly inbred?

As there isn't anyone offering anything from experience I thought I'd post this quote from someone who should have some idea:

Haze did not improve when put back to itself as I was told and later discovered.

I've read posts where Sam S backs this up.

Based on this, you should expect to be able to maintain close to the quality of the original F1s through careful selection and testing. It would be wise to avoid breeding with phenotypes having cat piss aromas as this is indicative of close inbreeding to haze - particularly the Haze C male.

If you're thinking about inbreeding NH, what are you hoping to achieve?

If you haven't already, try reading the Grail thread (a long read but there's some really good information in there for hobby breeders particularly toward the start). Line breeding to one or more of the hazes might be something you could be interested in. I've just started a little project which I've put quite a bit of research into prior to starting and I'd be happy to share what I've learnt so far if you're interested.

 

[sativaXindica]

I've just started a little project which I've put quite a bit of research into prior to starting and I'd be happy to share what I've learnt so far if you're interested.

greetings mark,

I'm interested do please go ahead and explain please!

Thanks

sXi

 

[Mark]

Hi SxI, here's a few notes to get things started. Many people have written entire books on the subject, so bear in mind this is an extremely summarized version but it should do as a start to convey the general gist.

Line breeding is a form of inbreeding where your goal is to create a line characterized by certain traits you find important in the plant. It centers around a single or small number of individuals that appear in multiple positions within a pedigree. The technique involves the selection of mates based on a combination of genetic background (common ancestors or particular plants with special qualities) and phenotypic expression.

In my opinion, this strategy treads the line between narrowing the gene pool enough to increase uniformity but keeping it open enough to generate hybrid vigour. This is all based on the premise of wise breeding and careful selection. The balance can be tilted one way or the other based on the degree of the relationship between mated individuals. If you want to improve uniformity/predictability you would tighten the degree of relationship and be very selective for the expression of key traits when selecting mates. On the other hand, if you need to improve vigour/yield/etc. your selections would be based on phenotypes more distantly related and as vigorous and high yielding as possible whilst trying to maintain as many of the favoured traits as possible (but this will be where the compromise is felt).

The repetition of certain individuals on both sides of the pedigree through different offspring, and particularly through both male and female offspring, tends to result in a higher than expected ratio of individuals produced in the likeness of those examples. This is most true when the individual which is line bred to, is itself inbred to some degree (generally the more inbred the better the result provided it is a superior example). Inbreeding sets the traits and outcrossing generates the vigour and outstanding plants. The right application of the technique over generations (which is generally a somewhat long road) results in predictable and outstanding progeny.

There's plenty more to cover if you want to elaborate on some aspect in particular.

There's some very good info on the topic in this post by kasrocks too.

 

[Mr Fecund]

nice one mark i was gonna make a post yesterday you mention both what nevil said that haze didnt improve put back on itself and haze C in particular.

think Nevil had 2 problems with it, lowering of potency and the catpiss smell.

that being said ive tried by best to tell nevil he needs to create a nevils haze ibl, but who am i?

first up a drop in potency is to be expected moving from f1's to ibls. things like think can and have been overcome, look at skunk, c99 etc. i would guess that, other than the mr nice lines, ACE's haze would be one of the best given that their line was quickly separated into two different lines, originally to draw out each 'pheno' as much as possible. now they have a 2 lines, originally from one, which are then recombined to recreate haze. i guess you could see it as mns has haze C and haze A, ace have green haze and purple haze. two different stories.

so to sum it up u start making ibls of nevils haze and you find there not as strong as those original super mums you selected, most have the dreaded catpiss/ammonia smell.

i guess there appears to be two solutions to this. use large numbers (not just in the f2's) and selected both for potency and lack of catpiss smell. just more than most of us want to commit.

i would have people realize before than canned a haze ibl idea that you read up on some of the 'original haze' lines that you find that they are likely a result of open pollination of available haze plants, and probably this a few times over. im not speaking for everyone but Sam has said this about his own original haze lines.

i personally wanna hear shantis ideas on the matter, in this case he has more experience than probably all of us, and perhaps even more than nevil when it comes to recombining haze.

other options are to combine your best haze with your best thai and Columbia/south american, then make a new f1.

ive been looking into it as much as i can and i believe that which originally created haze was thai x columbian, what nevil has referred to as 'first haze'. the A and C of nevils/mns was probably where mexican and south indian came in, i guess its hard without the whole story.

all in all we need enough people to have a crack.

 

[fumeke]

How about working in this line?

Hi everybody!
I think I saw it somewhere, and working with this line would be awesome...It´s MMxHzC, that could be a line that doesn´t involve Neville´s haze, but might improve Haze for breeding porpouses and who knows maybe choosing some short flowering phenos you might find somthing really good indeed. Althou you I think the only one that can cross them is SB.
I think somthing good will come from puting in the pot some Balck Widow, and Mango Haze, or La Niña...anyone???
Sorry about the off topic but I have been even dreaming of some crosses while I was reading the Grail Thread. LOL

Thanks

Fumeke

 

[BullDogDad]

I was basically looking at decreasing flower time, increasing yield, and maintaining or increasing potency. Why through inbreeding and not outcrossing? Because the idea is to maintain as much Sativa characteristic as possible. However, after reading the replies this is something far beyond my resources and i've lost interest. Sounds like its better to just pick a really nice mother and keep her around for cloning.

 

[deran]

I was basically looking at decreasing flower time, increasing yield, and maintaining or increasing potency. Why through inbreeding and not outcrossing? Because the idea is to maintain as much Sativa characteristic as possible. However, after reading the replies this is something far beyond my resources and i've lost interest. Sounds like its better to just pick a really nice mother and keep her around for cloning.

dont loose your interest, i bet yo can achieve your goals, as im pretty sure that nh aint a true f1 .. i mean, true f1`s are all uniform, without many rants, which is the case with nh, and by this i mean, rants outside of the 75% range (like with true f1`s)

also, this goddamn catpiss issue which nevil and sam put a major bullshit word out on the streets, if you want something fruity or kushy dont even start with a haze (hybrid), haze aint about flavour, its about high, never foget that

your goals:

increased yield - can be done
reduced flower time - can be done
maintaining/increasing potency - can be done

not all 3 at the same time, with luck yes, but because of the nature that recessive nl triats appear regulary within nh phenos, get the nl pheno for yield and work it on with a dominant potency pheno from the haze ancestors, then your half way there, within the next generations decreasing flowering time will be the simplest

even shanti tells us "he is bottlenecking quality" - read between the lines, he means inbreeding

my observations with inbreeding (hybrids or ibls/landraces) were more positive than negative

it upsets me, that some ppl state one sentance and this becomes the prayer for generations - even most didnt even try to work against those unwritten laws .. and yeah our world is flat und your gonna fall off from its edge ...

prove em wrong was always my credo, often i succeeded and somethimes i lost, i did win more often than i did loose, thats the reason why i am here and not somewhere in the corner shaming myself for my ignorance

with that in mind, inbreeding nh is your idea and it would be more than stupid to let this idea go away just because of some posts by someone who didnt try it and sombody you dont know and havent ever met

 

[Mr Fecund]

I was basically looking at decreasing flower time, increasing yield, and maintaining or increasing potency. Why through inbreeding and not outcrossing? Because the idea is to maintain as much Sativa characteristic as possible. However, after reading the replies this is something far beyond my resources and i've lost interest. Sounds like its better to just pick a really nice mother and keep her around for cloning.

dont forget about luck.

also i wouldnt mind seeing a similar thing done with nevils haze as c99 was with super silver haze. a bit of inbreeding, a bit of skunk/nL5 coming back in (shiva skunk), and fair bit of putting back to particular parents.

c99 was a worthy achievement if you ask me.

perhaps mm is the skunk for nevils haze.

but i would love to see it done both ways, pure nevils haze ibls and with something other than nevils haze to create to ibl.

i wouldnt mind seeing nevils selected male hit the old A5 cut. not adding anything new that way either.

also perhaps even if you want pinch some of shantis already recombined haze's. you might find something like angels breath x the doors
[((NL5 x HazeC) X (Sk x HazeA)) X (Afg x HazeA)] X [(NL5 x HazeC) x ((NL5 x HazeA) x (Sk x HazeC))]
might provide exactly what you were after but you were never looking for it.

 

[BullDogDad]

true f1`s are all uniform, without many rants, which is the case with nh, and by this i mean, rants outside of the 75% range (like with true f1`s)

I'm curious as to why it's not the opposite? If an "F1" is the result of an outcross, the breeding of two unrelated lines, shouldn't there actually be increased variation in the resulting F1 offspring do to the introduction of the new genetic material? Uniformity increasing in the later generations as certain genetic lineages and traits are selected upon?

haze aint about flavour, its about high, never foget that

Exactly. Although I think taste is part of the conniseur experience, if the effect is not superb, why bother growing the more difficult plant. It' seems to me part of the glory of the Haze plant is that you don't just grow these plants, you have to earn that final product. It requires more of you in order to more greatly reward you. It seems like some plants, Indicas especially, can grow on auto pilot.

get the nl pheno for yield and work it on with a dominant potency pheno from the haze ancestors

I will most likely never have the knowledge and skill of Shanti and Neville nor will I ever have the space, money, time, freedom to ever work out and execute a grow operation like theirs, and the great odds that lends to finding exceptional specimens. So rather than start at the beginning with a NL plant and a Haze plant, I prefer picking up the baton from where Neville and Shanti handed it off to me, as in NH for this example.

with that in mind, inbreeding nh is your idea and it would be more than stupid to let this idea go away just because of some posts by someone who didnt try it and sombody you dont know and havent ever met

Appreciate the encouragement. Cheers.

 

[bfskinner]

Word up Bulldogdad, I think this is a great plan.

The trick of course will be to find a male.

Maybe try to find a 14-16 week mom for cloning/growing purposes and keep every male that you find in a vegetative bonsai state.

You can flower them one by one and then progeny test in pretty quick succession while still maintaining a backstock of bonsai dads if you get your timing right.

How any packs are you thinking of?

Also, maybe try finding a male amongst La Nina which is much more uniform I understand. The Mullum in it is already extensively line bred.

Better idea, find your male in a pack of Walkabout. Much cheeper and Shanti said there are pure, linebred sativa landraces from Mexico, Indonesia, New Guinea and mysterious "others" (maybe some of the elusive Brazilian sat? Who knows but Shanti..).

 

[deran]

I'm curious as to why it's not the opposite? If an "F1" is the result of an outcross, the breeding of two unrelated lines, shouldn't there actually be increased variation in the resulting F1 offspring do to the introduction of the new genetic material?

heteroisis effect:

Heterosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So rather than start at the beginning with a NL plant and a Haze plant...

i meant a nl leaning pheno of nevils haze (here on our forum we have some such specimens which finish as fast as 9/10 weeks, thats what you need to look for considering faster flowering time, and also there are some phenos of nh which have bigger fatter buds than others, thats what i meant also with that)

The trick of course will be to find a male.

not with this project, the trick is to outcross, each male with each female, only such matings will get you the progeny to be tested and assure the success of this project

 

[bfskinner]

The important part of my reply is the suggestion to incorporate either LN or an inbred heirloom from Walkabout for stability and extended hybrid vigour, in addition to superior 100% sativa potency.

 

[Mark]

first up a drop in potency is to be expected moving from f1's to ibls. things like think can and have been overcome, look at skunk, c99 etc.

Good point but don't forget Soul felt that C99 wasn't as good as Princess either.

i would guess that, other than the mr nice lines, ACE's haze would be one of the best given that their line was quickly separated into two different lines, originally to draw out each 'pheno' as much as possible. now they have a 2 lines, originally from one, which are then recombined to recreate haze. i guess you could see it as mns has haze C and haze A, ace have green haze and purple haze. two different stories.

Inbreeding separate lines of the same strain and then recombining them could be a good technique - Nevil eluded to this regarding his work with skunk I think. This can be effective in creating a strain that combines all of the best qualities of separate lines. The important point is that each line needs to be high quality and need to complement one another - the lines involved shouldn't share a common fault or shortfall and ideally each should be strong in the characteristics another lacks.

so to sum it up u start making ibls of nevils haze and you find there not as strong as those original super mums you selected, most have the dreaded catpiss/ammonia smell.

This is a possible likely outcome but the result lies solely with the breeder and the genetics. It's possible that you could achieve something better just the odds are against it.

i guess there appears to be two solutions to this. use large numbers (not just in the f2's) and selected both for potency and lack of catpiss smell. just more than most of us want to commit.

Time and numbers are factors working against success - if you can work around both of these, add some skill and luck you'll likely reach the goals you set.

i would have people realize before than canned a haze ibl idea that you read up on some of the 'original haze' lines that you find that they are likely a result of open pollination of available haze plants, and probably this a few times over. im not speaking for everyone but Sam has said this about his own original haze lines.

The thing with open pollenation is that it makes it very slow and difficult to improve a strain. The most direct line to success involves ruthless culling of non-performers along with strategic use of the superior specimens. Essentially you need to narrow the gene pool to the point where it mostly contains only the characteristics you want to see. If you don't know the father of the best test progeny, how do you know not to cull it or be able to put it to further use?

In terms of the history of haze (as I know it!), Nevil found superior males and used 1:1 matings and progeny testing to find the best female mates for them. They have been the fathers, grandfathers, etc. of many superior lines available today. Nevil's hunch for improvement from here is outcrossing and linebreeding. Others that have worked with haze such as Sam and Tom Hill have used open pollenation techniques. Sam found no success with inbreeding haze and I think it's fair to assume Tom Hill didn't either so they felt open pollenation was the best option. These techniques have served to preserve their original gene pools (the good aspects along with those not so good) but haven't done much toward improving the respective lines over time.

other options are to combine your best haze with your best thai and Columbia/south american, then make a new f1.

Outcrossing and linebreeding. And that's what Nevil's doing now.

all in all we need enough people to have a crack.

Excellent point - the more people doing this and sharing the experience, the better progress we can all make! And it's fun.

 

[Mark]

I was basically looking at decreasing flower time, increasing yield, and maintaining or increasing potency. Why through inbreeding and not outcrossing? Because the idea is to maintain as much Sativa characteristic as possible.

In this case, I believe your best options would be to line breed or to inbreed 2 or 3 lines and then combine them. The first option would probably be your quickest route and allows you to fine tune the program as you learn more about the genetics you're working with and the way they combine.

However, after reading the replies this is something far beyond my resources and i've lost interest. Sounds like its better to just pick a really nice mother and keep her around for cloning.

You need to decide early on if you can commit the time and space required but don't forget that success with breeding your own can be a very rewarding experience.

I'm curious as to why it's not the opposite? If an "F1" is the result of an outcross, the breeding of two unrelated lines, shouldn't there actually be increased variation in the resulting F1 offspring do to the introduction of the new genetic material? Uniformity increasing in the later generations as certain genetic lineages and traits are selected upon?

It's interesting how it all works but essentially, inbreeding fixes the traits such that the phenotypic expression is very similar regardless of the combination of the genes they inherit from their parents. In the [true] F1 generation, from combining two inbred P1 parents, some genes will be more dominant for certain traits than the matching copies for the genes in the other line. You will generally get the same contribution from each parent each time (well very close to it). Therefore, the progeny are generally very uniform. In the F2 generation, (combining two of the F1s) this all turns around and large variation is the result due to the fact that this time around the progeny could get one of two options in the genes inherited from the father and same form the mother for every characteristic.

Although I think taste is part of the conniseur experience, if the effect is not superb, why bother growing the more difficult plant. It' seems to me part of the glory of the Haze plant is that you don't just grow these plants, you have to earn that final product. It requires more of you in order to more greatly reward you. It seems like some plants, Indicas especially, can grow on auto pilot.

My experience with the versions of haze I've worked with is that it generally has the whole package - great effect, great aromas and flavours, , smooth smoke, and decent yield. The only drawback is the flowering times but I can live with that. Don't be put off by notions that they're hard work and something to be earnt - it's just a matter of having the right environment (height and root space help) and feed them well (much lighter feeders than indica doms.).

I will most likely never have the knowledge and skill of Shanti and Neville nor will I ever have the space, money, time, freedom to ever work out and execute a grow operation like theirs, and the great odds that lends to finding exceptional specimens. So rather than start at the beginning with a NL plant and a Haze plant, I prefer picking up the baton from where Neville and Shanti handed it off to me, as in NH for this example.

Don't underestimate yourself and the success you could have. All breeders start somewhere and lots have been achieved with limited resources. Perhaps the best advice is to start with the highest quality examples closest to what you are looking to achieve. It sounds like you're already on the right path. Starting with NH is a good choice as most of the the characteristics you're looking for have already been somewhat fixed and it holds the shorter flowering, heavier yielding phenotypes to boot.

I wish you luck whichever path you take.

 

[BobGreen]

Reverse your male plants

Nevil, Chimera, and a few other top notch breeders suggest reversing your possible breeding males to check for wanted, and unwanted traits.

Nevil also stated that Kangas Mullum line was as strong as his strongest haze, and it happens to be a IBL.

Shanti also said his Mullum line was pretty much the same as Nevils Haze.

Sounds like Nevil, and Kanga are plotting on a mix of African, Thai, Nevils Haze, Oaxacan, and Mullum for Grail Haze. Call me crazy but reversing some choice males and doing some hobby inbreeding seems much more simple.

Plus the truth is that this just might just be your last crack at getting some Nevils Haze F1 seeds. That old Haze C clone can't live forever, and Nevil himself was pretty sure it was a goner. I always thought that was the reason Shanti released a few Haze C hybrids for us. Get em while there hot folks!

 

[BullDogDad]

heteroisis effect:

Heterosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think this is describing hybrid vigor but I don't see where it mentions uniformity of offspring.

 

[longhorn]

what he is trying to say is that when you cross two different varieties you will see uniformity due to the dominant genes showing in approximately 75% of the offspring. The old mendel's punnet square.

A a
A AA Aa
a Aa aa

it is when you make the f2 generation that you will find a lot of variety because more recessive phenos show up. This is why f1's tend to be somewhat uniform but if you were to cross the siblings, youd likely find a broader range and could find plants that resemble their grandparents and everything in between. This is something that makes it beneficial for a seed vendor to offer f1s (uniformity). But as a searcher of superb specimens it may help to search among a large number of f2s.

Good luck whatever you decide.

 

[deran]

I think this is describing hybrid vigor but I don't see where it mentions uniformity of offspring.

you havent even read the link

as you will find this sentence there :

Heterosis is used to increase yields, uniformity, and vigor.

^^ heterosis in plants, even canabis is listed


maybe i should stop giving advice, as its not needed anyways

you only think and play games online, but you dont read, and any given advice is useless to and for you