How to get those tough and old seeds to germinate

nice info. i have some real old skool genetics here that where gifted to me. been sitting around for about 20 years he said and cant get them to pop. i tried one run at it and failed as well. was way to hard so i did the slicing open and i got them to start but never did come out of the shell enough to go. i may have damaged the inner membrane now that im reading some of the info here by cutting to deep. i had sliced all way around on the seem of each side of the seed. i saw the white tail and even green leaf but that was it.
i do have access to any type of hormone or nutrient to help them along now so ill be trying again. possibly injecting some GA into the slice or end cut off to help to soften the inners. was also thinking possibly some NAA

there are 2 strains mixed in here one is old skool Pandora. dont recall the name of other. have to ask again. i ran a video on what i did last time if i can find ill post somewhere and run for new trial as well. and pics.
these are supposed to be a real good strain from what they told me so i dont want to give up yet
thanxs for the read here.
 
Thanks, I'll look into that book. Good title!

I mainly grow plants that produce crops at the moment, picking and eating the ripe fruit of any plant is very satisfying. Pests can do some pretty horrible things to plants. I grew some corn some years back and they weren't developing properly so I took a closer look and broke off a cob in the middle, there was this fat caterpillar munching away at the heart with a busted! look on it's face. The thing looked like Jabba the hut :D

I agree on what you said about the nutrients. The widest range will cover all the plants needs and allow it to express it's fullest potential. This also included trace metals like iron, magnesium etc which are important for flower development and color. I happen to be on site when they were drilling for water at my parents new house. Tons of ground bedrock came out on top like fine powder in the process. I grabbed as much of it as I could and mix it in the soil along with birch ash, blood meal and bat guano. That covers the plants basic needs. Then I use dutch organic fertilizer to cover the rest, the complete BioBizz line and the supplemental BioNova line, along with liquid humus. That's something like 15 bottles of nutrients. If one wants buds with great taste and scent, organic is definitely the way to go. I have tried using synthetic fertilizers and the organic grows kick ass in every way. The synthetic ones are just too strong and hard for the plant to break down.

I use them outdoors though in combination with compost. Usually I fertilize the spot some months earlier so that other native plants have time to buffer out the nutrients in the soil. Cannabis does put up a strong fight against other plants. What I have observed is that it grows fast trying to push away the competition and it often succeeds. Planting cannabis next to say raspberry bushes or other similar plant-pioneers is good idea, that way the plants have a "neighbour" to fight with. :p

Outdoor.jpg


Another thing that is important to remember is mycorrhiza, the symbiotic root fungus. It increases root size, improves on resistance as well as nutrient uptake. It also works as a buffer between the plant and the soil. I read a study made by french scientist where they grew pine trees in two different locations. One site was heavily occupied by mycorrhiza and the other was not. The trees that formed a symbiotic relationship with the fungus grew twice as big twice as fast and were overall more healthy. This fungus has had a relationship with plants for over 400 million years so I'm sure it works. There are hundreds of different types of mycorrrhiza that target different plants but I read somewhere that cannabis can form a symbiotic relationship with most of them since it's a weed (again one more things that it does better than most plants). You can buy regular garden mycorrhiza in big buckets that will last you a long time. I mainly reuse the soil I had during my last grow, just adding more basic nutrients. That way the mycorrhiza is already firmly established in the soil and will get boosted by the availability of new nutrients. Then I feed the plants nutrients when needed. The size and color of the leaves pretty much tell the story of how the plant is doing.

Sometimes I even bring earth worms to my indoors soil. They tunnel and munch on the soil, effectively improving on it without hurting the plants. It's good to think outside the box.

I guess that in environments where a lesser variety of nutrients are available, the plant conforms to using the readily available compound to a greater extent, but I still believe that it suffers from "malnutrition". How this and stress in general affects potency can be disputed, but by comparison to humans, the individual that is put under stress is also most likely to reach it's full potential, while the "lazy" one might not "bother".

Now we come to the thing that I ponder the most. This is to what extent indoor plants are capable of synthesizing fully realized THC without the presence of the sun and it's uv-b rays. I believe potency is the sum of two things, mainly it's genetically encoded but the synthesis is also affected by environmental factors. Say "how much" correlating with "how good". Cannabis synthesis goes like this if I remember correctly:

Lesser cannabinoids --> CBG (cannabigerol) from here it is independently processed into either:

1. CBC (Cannabichromene), non psycho active "energy-storage" compound which is readily converted back to CBG if needed.

2. CBD (Cannabidiol), the body stone effect, which is the precursor of THC. It also affects how the THC hits us, effectively improving on the high. (So high THC low CBD isn't necessarily a good thing).

CBD --> THC

THC is quite a complex compound that binds to several cannabinoid receptors in the brain in various ways depending on the presence of other cannabinoids. The rate and quality the synthesized THC is also dependent on the availability of nutrients, environmental factors like humidity etc.. I like to keep a very dry environment during flowering because I believe that promotes THC synthesis.

THC has many uses for the plant, including fighting off pests (pesticide), prevention of dessication either by the means of reflecting away solar radiation (mirrors) or was it that thc trichomes actually bind solar energy so that it will not harm or cause mutations in the plant, and to some degree keep the buds dry due to the fact that THC oils are hydrophobic.

Now, the reason why many scientist have proclaimed that uv-b radiation is important is because it fully activates the CBG --> THC synthesis. Not only that, but it can also activate a secondary metabolic pathway, which means that the road to THC synthesis becomes a "dual-lane" one. Twice the production that is. No matter how you twist it, I bet that cannabis grown on the top of the Himalayas is always more potent than indoor bud.

CBD --> THC --> CBD, in late flowering and with trichome age, THC is converted back to CBD. This also means that the THC on buds sitting in a jar will also eventually degrade into CBD. It might taste great and be smooth smoke but probably less potent than when it was harvested.

The whole process of THC synthesis is naturally heavily dependent on the sum of all the factors, but providing optimal soil goes a long way, so I think it's always wise to give the plant a good start.

I know that's bit of a read, but I take this stuff more seriously than my job :D

-Kodiak-

I know that's bit of a read, but I take this stuff more seriously than my job
..:):) have to love that...Just wanted to pop in and say -Thank you for a very nice and interesting read "Kodiak"..and i agree with 99% of what you've written..
 
Yeah, I'm a coffee tweaker :D during the day so I'm also a bit shaky but I still prefer method #1 because the results are almost instant. Not to say that I haven't ruined a few seeds this way but then again I wouldn't try this on very expensive or rare seeds.

It's basically just a backup thing to do when there is no sign of progress for days on end.

Heat also speeds up the germination process. I usually use the paper towel method and keep the seeds inside a box with a lid. I keep the box on the radiator or on top of the HPS and when heat is supplied underneath, the box becomes an incubation chamber.

Hi Kodiak. You are a ray of hope. Thanks for the advice, now my question is simple. I have some very rare and valuable beans that vary in age between around 15yrs and 8yrs.
I planted 20 of them a little over 2 weeks ago and 0 germinated. I am going to give it another shot but I want to know: do you think I should try nicking them or should I try sanding them? what would you do?

Also any other advice? Could you be so kind as to break down how you would germinate them for best results step by step.
Sorry but I have been out of the scene for quite a few years and have never had this issue, in the past I have always used fresh seeds.

I haven't quite given up on those 20 I already planted in dirt yet, any advice on them as well?
Thanks again
 
Good link there L33t, thanks

Seaweed extract contains a lot of different plant hormones, including auxin (general growth), cytokinin (promotes cell division) and gibberellic acid (promoting growth and elongation of cells).

Speaking of ancient seeds, here is an interesting article: http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/5312.html

It is interesting that you mention this. I used to use a product. I am not sure but I think it was called maxi-crop. Whenever I germinated my seeds. I would soak them in a solution of maxicrop until they sank, and then I would plant them in dirt. I couldn't find it this time around and didn't use it. Maxicrop is a Norweigen import and I think it is from seaweed. It is crazy stuff, its like a black powder. it turns the water black. I think I will try to hunt it down.
 
It is interesting that you mention this. I used to use a product. I am not sure but I think it was called maxi-crop. Whenever I germinated my seeds. I would soak them in a solution of maxicrop until they sank, and then I would plant them in dirt. I couldn't find it this time around and didn't use it. Maxicrop is a Norweigen import and I think it is from seaweed. It is crazy stuff, its like a black powder. it turns the water black. I think I will try to hunt it down.


http://www.maxicrop.co.uk/
 
Old seeds or seeds with a very thick outer shell can sometimes fail to germinate because the seed coat is so hard or thick that the moisture never gets inside the seed in order to trigger germination, or even if the seed germinates, the taproot lacks the strength to crack the coat.

Here are two really easy tricks how to get high germination rates with basically any seed.

Method 1:

Take a really sharp knife, a scalpel or maybe a carpet knife will do. Something really sharp anyway, the smaller the blade the better as this is precision work. Hold the seed between your fingers and chip the outer shell / seed coat at the bottom (sharp end) or in the middle. This will expose the "seed embryo" to the moisture of the paper towel. If you chip the seed coat at the top, the taproot might try to work it's way to the other side inside the shell and usually the seed dies before it succeeds. The trick here is not to hurt the innards of the seed in any way. If you chip too deep you end up slicing the embryonic seed and then it's goodbye for that one.

I chipped this seed two hours ago and it is already germinating.

Germination.jpg


Using this method I have managed to get high germination rates with really old seeds. People said that they got 0% germination rates with the Skunkman's oldschool Durban Poison x Skunk #1 freebies that were handed out with orders. Using this method I got about 75% of the seeds to germinate within a day or two.

It's a gamble but if done carefully it will work almost every time.

Method 2:

This is the safer option with less change of ruining the seed. It might take a little bit longer for the seed to germinate than with method 1 but still pretty fast compared to regular germination.

Use fine grain sand paper and carefully thin out the seed coat until it looks like there is only a very fine layer of the outer shell left. That's it.


Both methods increase germination rates considerably.


Keep it Green

-Kodiak-

Oh, man...I wish Id read this twow eeks ago! I ordered 15 Gorilla grape seeds....soaked in distilled water for 24 hoiurs, then into the damp paper towel...NOTHING! Waited...waited...NOTHING! Finally gave up ater 12 days. IF I had know this THEN...grumble cuss...I MIGHT have some GG seedlings instead of 100 bucks down the tubes.

Well...NEXT time! haHA! Thanbks for this great info

Dixie
 

I was just checking out the website, it looks like their products have really changed in the last 8 years, I used to get it in a concentrated powder form, and use it all the time through veg, and then stopped it in flowering.

It looks they have really diversified(and possibly bullshitified as well)
anyway I am going to try to hunt it down. I'll update the post if I have any luck with it
 
I was just checking out the website, it looks like their products have really changed in the last 8 years, I used to get it in a concentrated powder form, and use it all the time through veg, and then stopped it in flowering.

It looks they have really diversified(and possibly bullshitified as well)
anyway I am going to try to hunt it down. I'll update the post if I have any luck with it

Well i just asked my wife if she thought that i've change in the last 8 years..you guess what answer i got;):)
 
nice info. i have some real old skool genetics here that where gifted to me. been sitting around for about 20 years he said and cant get them to pop. i tried one run at it and failed as well. was way to hard so i did the slicing open and i got them to start but never did come out of the shell enough to go. i may have damaged the inner membrane now that im reading some of the info here by cutting to deep. i had sliced all way around on the seem of each side of the seed. i saw the white tail and even green leaf but that was it.
i do have access to any type of hormone or nutrient to help them along now so ill be trying again. possibly injecting some GA into the slice or end cut off to help to soften the inners. was also thinking possibly some NAA

there are 2 strains mixed in here one is old skool Pandora. dont recall the name of other. have to ask again. i ran a video on what i did last time if i can find ill post somewhere and run for new trial as well. and pics.
these are supposed to be a real good strain from what they told me so i dont want to give up yet
thanxs for the read here.

Did you ever have any luck germinating these?
 

Well the verdict is in. slightly bullshitified, but still an awesome product, if it is all you can get, then get it. The facelift, is a bit of a scam, they watered it way down and got some expensive packaging.

The good news is I found the original and its still for sale, and if you get this one it is like literally 50-100 times cheaper, and it is better.

http://www.amazon.com/Maxicrop-MX007-Seaweed-Soluble-Powder/dp/B00064SYSU


This stuff is the bomb, it is like magic, use it on seedlings to the 5th leafset, and it helps clones too.

It especially helps old seeds hatch. just follow the mixing instructions on the label for seedlings.


Thanks BadBack, you are the man!
 
thank you

2 seeds weren't germinating after 36 hours in a cup of water so, after reading this and gently running a razor along the edge and "chipping away" at the pointed side, put them back in water and 2 hours later... :D

thank you very much for these tips!!!
 
After reading the thread I was curious. I had a lot of seeds from a cross I made so I decided to do a little side by side. I chipped away some of the seed case on one and left one intact. Put them between paper towels in a warm place. In less then 12 hours the chipped one had cracked and was showing a little tail while the intact one was still uncracked.

Not too scientific, not much of a sample size, but the chipped one sure cracked fast. These were fairly fresh seeds...need to try on some older ones.
 
Any try any

using Gibberellic Acid to help pop beans? I found this link in a search I did for helping increase germination rates. Copy & paste the link in a search engine, take out the X's, add www & yer set.

http://XXX.jlhudsonseeds.net/GibberellicAcid.htm

I do links this way to keep hot links from giving us away. There are a lot of sites for the G Acid. Seems kinda popular.

The scraping the pointed end sounds like it works pretty well. Good suggestion.

Lotta good advice on the thread. Thanks every one.

mM
 
According to legal growers, soaking, scratching inside a matchbox work. Mentioned by Jorge C. Plus warmth. THis is the chem-free and preferred way.

But a 1.5x strength rec dose of IAA cloning soln. a very dilute fungicide, and 12hr soaks followed by breathable soaks in shallow water or cotton, (repeat as necessary) elevated temperatures all help. I wouldn't put it past some commercial entities to have put abscissic acid to prevent germination in transit. Gently force-cracking the weak ones as a last resort may be tried pre-soak if all else fails. Tried by someone who is not me with germ rates nearing 100% for even underdeveloped or multi-decade-old seeds. Some mineral content water is preferred over too purified of a water like d-H20. No ferts, not too much minerals or IAA. Too much of anything is no good.

Chemicals can be harsh on skin and harmful to your eyes, nose, and/or lungs. No one wants consumables with chemicals even if trace. So chem treatment is last resort if you ask me.

Follow your laws, (don't germinate if it means breaking the law) and if you do on your own, I do not advocate it.
 
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using Gibberellic Acid to help pop beans? I found this link in a search I did for helping increase germination rates. Copy & paste the link in a search engine, take out the X's, add www & yer set.

http://XXX.jlhudsonseeds.net/GibberellicAcid.htm

I do links this way to keep hot links from giving us away. There are a lot of sites for the G Acid. Seems kinda popular.

The scraping the pointed end sounds like it works pretty well. Good suggestion.

Lotta good advice on the thread. Thanks every one.

mM

GA sprays are moderately toxic. Care must be taken for eyes and lungs. It is not popular and will not work that well at too low or too high concentrations. The method is last ditch compared to other simpler suggestions here.

Stubborn nuts are stubborn because the moisture cannot penetrate the seed and/or they were chemically treated to be dormant or have produced a higher concentration of hormones to keep it in dormancy.

The key is penetration followed by a soak that removes the AA. If you're going to do hormones, you can do GA or IAA + mineral water + warmth will do it for almost all stubborn seeds after a forced edge-crack.

GA is a mild skin irritant. It is not as toxic as some people say, but negative effects are subjective and some are more sensitive than others. I sure don't want to buy edible fruits or mj flowers contaminated with GA or fertilizer or bat guano or IAA for that matter.

If there is enough evaporation and you get dust you it is more toxic to your lungs. Wear gloves and eye protection. In pure form it is dangerous due to shock-induced flames/explosions.

IAA and GA will cause undesired stretch. In grapes GAA is used to space out grapes and clusters. If you like lanky long internode spacing, and don't mind the risk of a big chem spill, chemicals potentially in a human consumption product, etc. Go for it.

I'm sensitive even to a bit too much MSG in my food so organic is my philosophy. Water soak, warmth, some scratches or cracks is a much smarter way, but that's my opinion.

Ref. http://XXX.guidechem.com/msds/77-06-5.html]Gibberellic acid (cas 77-06-5) msds - Guidechem.com
 
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Thanks, I'll look into that book. Good title!

I mainly grow plants that produce crops at the moment, picking and eating the ripe fruit of any plant is very satisfying. Pests can do some pretty horrible things to plants. I grew some corn some years back and they weren't developing properly so I took a closer look and broke off a cob in the middle, there was this fat caterpillar munching away at the heart with a busted! look on it's face. The thing looked like Jabba the hut :D

I agree on what you said about the nutrients. The widest range will cover all the plants needs and allow it to express it's fullest potential. This also included trace metals like iron, magnesium etc which are important for flower development and color. I happen to be on site when they were drilling for water at my parents new house. Tons of ground bedrock came out on top like fine powder in the process. I grabbed as much of it as I could and mix it in the soil along with birch ash, blood meal and bat guano. That covers the plants basic needs. Then I use dutch organic fertilizer to cover the rest, the complete BioBizz line and the supplemental BioNova line, along with liquid humus. That's something like 15 bottles of nutrients. If one wants buds with great taste and scent, organic is definitely the way to go. I have tried using synthetic fertilizers and the organic grows kick ass in every way. The synthetic ones are just too strong and hard for the plant to break down.

I use them outdoors though in combination with compost. Usually I fertilize the spot some months earlier so that other native plants have time to buffer out the nutrients in the soil. Cannabis does put up a strong fight against other plants. What I have observed is that it grows fast trying to push away the competition and it often succeeds. Planting cannabis next to say raspberry bushes or other similar plant-pioneers is good idea, that way the plants have a "neighbour" to fight with. :p

Outdoor.jpg


Another thing that is important to remember is mycorrhiza, the symbiotic root fungus. It increases root size, improves on resistance as well as nutrient uptake. It also works as a buffer between the plant and the soil. I read a study made by french scientist where they grew pine trees in two different locations. One site was heavily occupied by mycorrhiza and the other was not. The trees that formed a symbiotic relationship with the fungus grew twice as big twice as fast and were overall more healthy. This fungus has had a relationship with plants for over 400 million years so I'm sure it works. There are hundreds of different types of mycorrrhiza that target different plants but I read somewhere that cannabis can form a symbiotic relationship with most of them since it's a weed (again one more things that it does better than most plants). You can buy regular garden mycorrhiza in big buckets that will last you a long time. I mainly reuse the soil I had during my last grow, just adding more basic nutrients. That way the mycorrhiza is already firmly established in the soil and will get boosted by the availability of new nutrients. Then I feed the plants nutrients when needed. The size and color of the leaves pretty much tell the story of how the plant is doing.

Sometimes I even bring earth worms to my indoors soil. They tunnel and munch on the soil, effectively improving on it without hurting the plants. It's good to think outside the box.

I guess that in environments where a lesser variety of nutrients are available, the plant conforms to using the readily available compound to a greater extent, but I still believe that it suffers from "malnutrition". How this and stress in general affects potency can be disputed, but by comparison to humans, the individual that is put under stress is also most likely to reach it's full potential, while the "lazy" one might not "bother".

Now we come to the thing that I ponder the most. This is to what extent indoor plants are capable of synthesizing fully realized THC without the presence of the sun and it's uv-b rays. I believe potency is the sum of two things, mainly it's genetically encoded but the synthesis is also affected by environmental factors. Say "how much" correlating with "how good". Cannabis synthesis goes like this if I remember correctly:

Lesser cannabinoids --> CBG (cannabigerol) from here it is independently processed into either:

1. CBC (Cannabichromene), non psycho active "energy-storage" compound which is readily converted back to CBG if needed.

2. CBD (Cannabidiol), the body stone effect, which is the precursor of THC. It also affects how the THC hits us, effectively improving on the high. (So high THC low CBD isn't necessarily a good thing).

CBD --> THC

THC is quite a complex compound that binds to several cannabinoid receptors in the brain in various ways depending on the presence of other cannabinoids. The rate and quality the synthesized THC is also dependent on the availability of nutrients, environmental factors like humidity etc.. I like to keep a very dry environment during flowering because I believe that promotes THC synthesis.

THC has many uses for the plant, including fighting off pests (pesticide), prevention of dessication either by the means of reflecting away solar radiation (mirrors) or was it that thc trichomes actually bind solar energy so that it will not harm or cause mutations in the plant, and to some degree keep the buds dry due to the fact that THC oils are hydrophobic.

Now, the reason why many scientist have proclaimed that uv-b radiation is important is because it fully activates the CBG --> THC synthesis. Not only that, but it can also activate a secondary metabolic pathway, which means that the road to THC synthesis becomes a "dual-lane" one. Twice the production that is. No matter how you twist it, I bet that cannabis grown on the top of the Himalayas is always more potent than indoor bud.

CBD --> THC --> CBD, in late flowering and with trichome age, THC is converted back to CBD. This also means that the THC on buds sitting in a jar will also eventually degrade into CBD. It might taste great and be smooth smoke but probably less potent than when it was harvested.

The whole process of THC synthesis is naturally heavily dependent on the sum of all the factors, but providing optimal soil goes a long way, so I think it's always wise to give the plant a good start.

I know that's bit of a read, but I take this stuff more seriously than my job :D

-Kodiak-

CBD ->THC this was proposed by some european and japanese scientists before better quantitatitve data was available. People were mixing up CBN with CBD as well. In any case the post above on the chemical aspects are mostly wrong and outdated.

CBG is the precursor to CBC, THC, and CBD as proven by the full mapping of MJ genome and identification of cannabinoid producing biochemical pathways. You are indeed right about the anti-pest or anti-bacterial aspects of some of these compounds. Further, CBC degrades in UV and sunlight faster than the other compounds, so it doesn't make sense for a plant to accumulate CBC (waste of energy to produce something for degradation with no obvious survival improvement).

THC degradation leads to CBN.

Furthermore evidence is mounting that THCV and CBDV is not produced by a different biochemical pathway but is a different isoform of the same pathway for THC/CBD. I do not recommend any reading on the biochemistry of mj pre-1995 as it will mislead you.
 
People are rather sloppy with words and scientific topics.

There was the whole myth about drug cannabis Indica varieties being high CBD. Yet that was also disproven by clubs posting numbers indicating pretty much less than 3% across the board.

Another myth is the CBD affects primarily the body only and THC the mind, and that CBD is the compound that gives unpleasant body side effects. This couldn't be further from the truth.

CBD improves alertness, and due to its antagonist effects in specifically the hippocampus, it eliminates the problem of high THC strains of memory-formation interruption. THC is neuroprotective and disruptive to memory formation at the same time because of how it interacts with CB1 receptors. THC stimulation of CB1 receptors on presynaptic neurons is thought to suppress neurotransmitter release from those neurons. Put in lay term analogy, your brain is a well-tuned machine with precise neuronal firing timing. That timing mechanism is disrupted by THC. CBD is thought to be an indirect antagonist (blocker) of receptors.

The mechanism is still being worked out. It is too early but evidence suggests an interlinked-ness amongst the different cannabinoid systems (aka crosstalk). (CB1, CB2, GPR55, etc.) It is also a moderate 5-HT1a agonist. THC/THCV, CBD/CBDV affect many parts of our body and brain (seratonin, dopamine, cholilne, Gaba, etc.). The attempt by neuroscientists to capture the full mechanism of these molecules is still in a juvenile stage. When lay people play telephone on the bits and pieces they think they understand, you can understand the source of confusion and 'paraphrased' misunderstandings.

The real question people should be asking is, 'does it work for me.' Not go by what half truths people post out of boredom.
 
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