Grail: The Ultimate Haze Hybrid

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hempy said:
The pan red i rember had red flowers like that Angola it was good smoke this was not mild smoke but it was seen as nice smoke there was no colture like there is today to hype any line pan reds columbines Hawaiian you name it was grown and enjoyed if something was not good do you think any one would of grown it let alone imported tons of it in and to other country's.
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Were all the plants red though or were they a mix of red and green phenos?

I've yet to grow a purple line that had all purple phenos, they are always a mix of greens and purples.

Be cool to find a red plant though.

I have a bag of 60-odd seeds I guy in America sent me a couple of years ago labelled Panama Red, they are small pale-ish seeds with a reddish colour, look like they could be the real thing, hybrids always produce bigger seeds I find and it's only the pure sats that produce such tiny seeds, they are the same size as the Colombian Gold seeds I have. I'll have to try germing some soon, with a bit of luck they might be the real thing and there might be a red pheno. If so I'll be sure to clone it and pass it on.
 
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hempy said:
The pan red i rember had red flowers like that Angola it was good smoke this was not mild smoke but it was seen as nice smoke there was no colture like there is today to hype any line pan reds columbines Hawaiian you name it was grown and enjoyed if something was not good do you think any one would of grown it let alone imported tons of it in and to other country's.
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Yeah, don't get me wrong, I was speaking relatively. It was very good stuff, but it wasn't one of my personal favorites, I was more taken with the really strong varieties. back in the day I would have referred to it as "girls weed", cause it was the type of stuff you wanted to have on a date. Actually Hawaiian and Thai were my favorites, when I could get them.
 
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hempy said:
The only time you see what we call phonos is when its a strain that has been x to a different genetic line like i sed you threw 10 pan red seeds down you got 10 plants that looked smelt smoked the same.

The thing every one needs to understand is lots of it was good back then but were i may of loved say growing Hawaiian or Thia my mate liked the pan red and a different friend liked say the columbines better and some others African its not there better than each other but some like things for different reasons they were all good in there own unique way.
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Thanks hempy, hopefully I will find something red then. There's no variation in the Colombian Gold I have really, very little indeed, although I don't know whether this indicates it's been worked a lot of not.

The reason I'm interested in the Colombian/Panama Red types is I haven't grown a sativa that had the type of high people describe from them and it sounds like my cup of tea, and I love the Colombian Gold so I wanna try it's lowland cousin.
 
hempy said:
The only time you see what we call phonos is when its a strain that has been x to a different genetic line like i sed you threw 10 pan red seeds down you got 10 plants that looked smelt smoked the same.
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I haven't worked with many 'landrace' varieties except Lebanese and Sensi's Durban (the latter of which, as we all know, has been extensively worked post-Africa), but am I the only one having trouble swallowing this statement?

Certain cannabis breeders warn that using corn as an example when speaking of our favorite plant is a mistake (sorry Tom!), but shouldn't a 'landrace' cultivar grown from a batch of seed look more like this...

MaizeVariety.jpg


...than this?

corn-4.jpg


I'm no breeder nor geneticist, so feel free to correct me if I'm way off base.

ps. Nothing personal, Hempy. I know you're feeling a bit picked-on and on-the-ropes lately, so this isn't a stab at you...
 
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the question is about definition

where to draw the line between variation and phenos, as often its in the eye of the beholder
 
I think we're being nitpicky about what truly constitutes a "landrace" here. Ancient breeding techniques (mostly mother-based selection) resulted in the cultivated landraces we have/had. This type of breeding eventually produces something approaching homogeneity, though obviously total homogeneity would be very undesirable in breeding plants.

I think feral cannabis is being confused with landrace cannabis here. The feral cannabis of any given area will generally look something like the cultivated landrace varieties (if the area has any) but with far greater variation. Members of this forum who have seen feral cannabis populations can attest to this.

The durban you worked with was out-and-in crossed I'm sure. Can't speak as to the source of your leb.
 
My opinion is that a truly wild, feral population will have a load of variation n order to cope with different conditions from season to season. Not all the plants will mature and drop seed at the same time because some years there will be early frosts or other problems like the monsoon so there have to be some earlier plants to survive those years. Also, there will be variation in the phenotypes to adapt to growing in different places. Pindulinka posted a load of pics of the feral cannabis in Moravia and there was a lot of variation in size, structure, finishing time etc.

If a line is very consistant then man had been doing some selection imho.
 
british_hempire said:
My opinion is that a truly wild, feral population will have a load of variation n order to cope with different conditions from season to season. Not all the plants will mature and drop seed at the same time because some years there will be early frosts or other problems like the monsoon so there have to be some earlier plants to survive those years. Also, there will be variation in the phenotypes to adapt to growing in different places. Pindulinka posted a load of pics of the feral cannabis in Moravia and there was a lot of variation in size, structure, finishing time etc.

If a line is very consistant then man had been doing some selection imho.
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indeed
i see a lot of variation in wild Ruderalis in Russia lot of pheno's
 
In My experience, true landrace varieties, tend to be very homogenous as compared to most hybrids, I have worked with several of them. What hempy says is correct. landraces, tend to be fairly true breeding. Like for example the main one I worked with was Malawi Gold, and everyone of them looked quite similar, they all had very skinny leaves, about the same length budding cycle, and they all tended to bleach out toward the end of their budding cycle, turning a color of straw yellow. They all did this everyone, there was variation, some were a little smaller some were larger, etc, but generally speaking they were quite homogenous.
 
Since we've gotten on the topic of Red, does anyone have experience with Swazi Red. Ive got 10 Afropip Swazi Red beans. I may move them up to the top of my list if anyone has something good to say :).
 
Well i dont know where you fellas get the idea that landraces are true breeding ,, they are not ..
why do you think we need to make hybrids ?
landraces have been replaced by true breeding cultivars or hybrids , because they are not true breeding ..

i get the feeling some folks are growing landrace strains that have had quite a few 1:1 matings before they got hold of them ... maybe they have already been hybridised ..

this is the only way you could have plants all the same that i know of ,,

anyone ??
 
joshuahazen said:
In My experience, true landrace varieties, tend to be very homogenous as compared to most hybrids, I have worked with several of them. What hempy says is correct. landraces, tend to be fairly true breeding. Like for example the main one I worked with was Malawi Gold, and everyone of them looked quite similar, they all had very skinny leaves, about the same length budding cycle, and they all tended to bleach out toward the end of their budding cycle, turning a color of straw yellow. They all did this everyone, there was variation, some were a little smaller some were larger, etc, but generally speaking they were quite homogenous.
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i have to disagree there josh ,, heres why ,,
a quote from robert allards principles of plant breeding ..

"All landraces are or appear to be heterogenous mixtures or genotypes that have mutually benefitial associations with each other and the environmental conditions . Dependability , especially the capacity to produce at least modest yeilds even when growing conditions are unfavourable , characterize the modern landraces , and this has perhaps been the most important attribute of landraces throughout the centries .....""


if they were all the same ,, then how would they survive situations that require diversity ???
 
I really think folks should study more before they try to educate others , just incase they are wrong ..
doesnt take much to pick up a book and do a bit of research ,

if we are so passionate about learning about cannabis and plant breeding then it would be the obvious path ..

cannabis boards are loaded with misinformation ,and "experts" text books are a much better way of getting the right information ...
 
hey bucketbong ,,
darn glad someone else has had the same experience i have ,,
was starting to feel a little left out there ,, lol .
loved to have seen that red bud ,,

The seeds we were growing were from females that were pollenated by many fathers ,, how could you expect much sameness ..

Youd have to think that if these landraces grew all the same ,,
wtf are we worrying about selection for ..
 
Donald Mallard said:
i have to disagree there josh ,, heres why ,,
a quote from robert allards principles of plant breeding ..

"All landraces are or appear to be heterogenous mixtures or genotypes that have mutually benefitial associations with each other and the environmental conditions . Dependability , especially the capacity to produce at least modest yeilds even when growing conditions are unfavourable , characterize the modern landraces , and this has perhaps been the most important attribute of landraces throughout the centries .....""


if they were all the same ,, then how would they survive situations that require diversity ???
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Hi Donald,

Thanks for the input, I think it is relative,

I am not claiming to be an expert, but the landraces I have worked with, have not been from seedbanks, rather they have come from bagseed, and have included mexican varieties, and african varieties. I am not saying that they are homogeneous as compared to traditional commercial crops like corn, or other vegetable varieties. But compared to my hybrids, they are very homogeneous.

Most of my hybrids are all over the place. 2 plants coming from the same stock, one might look like a fat indica and have a 60 day budding cycle, and its sister might look like a pure sativa and have a 80 day budding cycle. They are all mixed up. Although they breed true for certain limited traits, like potency and yield. But although they all may be potent, they will vary greatly in terms of character of high. Now, generally speaking, landraces are not like that at all. If one of them is sativa then all of them are sativa. if their budding cycles vary, its not by weeks but by a few days at the most. This has been my experience. I do not have experience with modern day seedbank varieties, so I can't speak much about them, but even judging from the discriptions they are not true breeding like the landraces I have seen. Like you will commonly see, a discription for example, saying flowering period is 60-75 days, I have never seen that kind of variation in the landraces I have worked with.

But my hybrids, aside from a very few lines which I have been able to get some semblance of homogeneity, but even these are not as true breeding, as the landraces I have worked with, and I have been breeding these more homogeneous hybrid for 10-15 generations.

These are my observations, perhaps other people have seen otherwise. I don't know.

Has anyone seen a landrace where the budding cycle varies by up to 2 weeks within a given bag of seeds? I never have.

There are many genetic problems within the seedbanks, and many strains are falling apart, I have heard, but it seems to me that this is because of ignorance and irresponsible breeding. Feminizing, breeding a clone back into itself for like 5 generations, inbreeding without linebreeding, etc.



I think it is relative, because our vegetable crops, are what Allard is referring to, and they are very homogeneous, especially when compared to their original landrace strains. Cannabis horticulture is in its infant stages, and we just haven't had the time to create truly homogeneous strains, like the vegetable crops Allard is referring to.
 
Great points BH


MR Mallard

we are definetly on the same page ,you basically took the words out of my mouth

Bucket

id love to hear more details of your experiences with the strains of yesteryear all of them especially Pred since its recently of topic maybe you can shed some more light


ITS always been my understanding that landraces express much variation ,there are many reports and supporting info .I think afghanistan shows a good example of why we see such varaition in landrace strains the climate is sooo diverse from season to season,region to region ,year to year

Id to share this link of an old punto rojo thread in spanish .Now i have only translated bits n pieces ,but i believe this thread shows some great examples of variation in an ibl .IMO aswell supports happyhi's statement that OHAZE is from punto rojo stock

Punto rojo y mangobiche (colombia - manizales 2000mts) - International Cannagraphic Magazine Forums


1luvbigherb
 
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