DJ Short's Class

[pepper]

Its nice reading you guys, just it looks like only me keep plants under 16/8.

I use 16 / 8 all the time.

to me ,way faster sexing which is the only reason I use 16/8

I always think getting the fastest time to show sex the most important, meaning less energy, less nutrients, less soil/ up-potting, less water wasted, faster room clear up, and most important less time wasted..


^ as to above on males and females showing, I always see males first. and then you can see some males / females at the same time, and then some late females to show last

 

[pepper]

BTW, Dj's Flo puts out a ton of preflowers in veg and will flower on 16 hours of light.

never heard or seen this, I have run flo more then any of his strain in veg, and can say i 've never seen this??? as you can see with my above posts, I use 16/8 all the time in veg, I usually do 18 for 2 weeks then 17, then keep it on 16.


I have once had fem flo from DP when I first started, I believe my first plant, and yes I can say it put out mass amounts of pre-flowers, but cannot say about flo from DJ packs putting out more pre-flowers then any other strain???

also for the fact that the huge internode length, and coupled with the classic "pole plant" structure of DJ ( minus his CK and so so vanilluna ) there is not many preflowers to even be seen, unless you are growing from clone and LST / topping to get more side branches / smaller structure..

can I ask, is this a DP flo, DJ pack flo, clone?


forgot to add.. DJ's strains are known to autoflower ( from red and some members ) which I have not seen yet, but they say it can occur when the plant gets to root-bound. any chance your flo was massively root-bound? this is intressting, and would like to know more, if it was a single plant or all of the plants started to flower...

 

[joshuahazen]

Thank you for sharing Joshua.

You make some interesting statements. More females with
24 hours of light? Females showing first? IME males show
first, but lately I'm seeing what you're talking about and it
intrigues me. I'm used to the old notion that boys sex first
and ladies come last. How long do they take to transition
to flowering? Are you talking indicas, mostly indicas, etc??
Have you tried rooting clones using various dark cycles? 2
b perfectly honest I'd prefer to root using dark cycles, veg
using 24/0, then transition the last two weeks to 18/6 in
preparation for the 12/12 flip. I'd even like (and this is me
thinking out loud again) a timer that gradually reduces the
photoperiod all the way down to 10/14, but I haven't quite
worked out all the logistics. I also like DJ's light regimen for
his male---20/4---as it is almost precisely what I use to
sex my plants. It gives them a nap without sacrificing any
noticeable growth. It also saves ferts, reduces heat, and
gives the grower a chance to address any problems, pest
or otherwise. The advantage is the increased buffer zone.

At least, I believe that.

Ok... First of all, I use Haze hybrids, probably around 50/50 indica sativa.
The foundational plants for my strains are the original NL5XHZ from the 1990 seedbank catalog and 2 very special different types of N cali, giant indicas. They tend to lean more towards sativa, but they tend to express themselves as giant indica. There are many variations within these strains. The stock is primarily 50% NL5XHaze, The bud is overwhelmingly haze, and this is the result of many generations of careful selective breeding. They tend to have between a 60-80 day cycle, depending on the strain and the individual plant.

Normally you are right, males tend to show sex first. But I have found, with my hybrids, that the females have a tendancy to show sex while still on vegetative cycle, and 24 hours of light actually greatly increases this tendancy. The males tend to stay undifferentiated. I thought this was a common thing, but have been told on this forum that it actually is not common at all.

I definitely notice that I get a higher percentage of females when starting seedlings on 24 hours of light, I know it sounds strange, and I don't understand it, but it is what I have noticed.

As far as rooting is concerned, I don't know, I have always grown and rooted in dirt, using Rootone rooting powder, and generally use 24 hour for rooting, under cool white shop flourescents, but it usually takes 2-3 weeks for clones to take, but they do just fine, and I get a 90-100% success rate.

 

[joshuahazen]

Holy Shit! that is awesome!
That is how I assess potency of males, because I am smoking leaves. The old wake and bake. Works every time.

 

[Morphote]

24/0 light

Why that regimen is not a good idea:

Why do i always see people who grow plants in veg with 24 hours lights on and no hours of dark?

anyone heard of the calvin cycle?

plants gotta sleep too, converting the molecules back to the starting constituents.

Thoughts, ideas, etc.. greatly welcomed.

I 100% agree.

I think people use light on 24/7 because they want to (unwittingly) grow less healthy plants; plants that do not have as high of a rate of photosynthesis and rate of growth as plants using proper diurnal (daylength) time, ex. 20 hours max. Plants use night time even in veg to carry out "light independent reactions" (formally termed "dark reactions") such as calvin cycle, circadian rhythm, etc.

Plants grow the most during the night and very early morning hours...by far.

That said, plants can do without a night time, but it's not a great idea.

Not using a night hinders most plants and shows how much cannabis book authors do not understand plant physiology and photobiology. It's really a shame that the likes of Mel Frank, Ed Rosenthall, Jorge Cervanties, etc., perpetuate the incorrect claims that plants do fine when they don't have night. That claim is total BS in terms of rate of photosynthesis, rate of growth, level of plant stress, calvin cycle, circadian rhythm etc., etc.

Plants need night time for the best growth. Plants can grow without a night but they have reduced rate of photosynthesis, reduced rate of growth, reduced carbon assimilate and partitioning, etc., etc., et al.

Also, Ca is transported within plant (xylem) most efficiently during the night IIRC.

Another issue with providing light 24/7 is "photoinhibition" of plants. The problem is the "Daily Light Integral" (DLI), which is the total amount of light (i.e. photons within PAR range) that irradiates the plant per day (as moles/meter^2/day). Too much DLI is just as bad as too much light (as a single instance measurement with Lux, PPFD, etc) in terms of hindering the plant's biological process. Namely by reducing stomatal conductance that in turn reduces the rate of photosynthesis, Co2 fixation, calcium and boron movement into roots, etc.

DLI is a very important factor and one that is lost on most people, sadly. Lumens, lux, PPDF (Photosynthetic Photon Flux Density), etc., are single instance measurements of light. However, we need to consider the sum of light over the whole day, not just for a second. In other words, we should not be using lumens, lux, PPFD, etc., to judge how much light is good for plants unless we only give them a second of light per day. We should be using PPFD-DLI. And while on this topic, weshould notuse lumens or lux anyway, they are not for plants, we should use at least PPFD.

FWIW, here is something I wrote last week about ideal PPFD for cannabis adjusted to a natural diurnal bell-curve of PPFD found in nature:

"Control red to far-red light ratio to limit stretching"
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=194053

FWIW, I think it's possible to use a 600w or 1,000 watt with far-red blocking film or plastic and still provide ideal (high) level of light (irradiance) per day for cannabis. That is, using the proven ideal PPFD for cannabis (~1,500) adjusted for a natural PPFD diurnal bell-curve over a whole day to find the "Daily Light Integral" (DLI); ex., for a 12 hour day. Thus the ideal (natural environment replicated) PPFD-DLI for cannabis during flowering to reach highest rate of photosynthesis, yield, growth, etc., is 43 to 48 moles/m^2/day. To reach 43 to 48 moles/m^2/day for 12 hours (flowing) we need to provide ~1,000 to 1,100 PPFD [5].

Using peak diurnal PPFD of 1,500 adjusted with an average PPFD diurnal bell-curve from a high irradaince location (ex. Hawaii on relatively cloudless day maxing out at 1,500-2,000 PPFD) to find PPFD-DLI is the best method to measure lighting for a garden. That is, short of using PPFD weighted with K.McCree's Action Spectra of Photosynthesis once McCree's work is corrected with the new info about high irrdiance white light sourced green light providing as much quantum efficiency as red light (i.e. driving rate of photosynthesis as well as red light).

addendum:

I have tested 24/7 of light when I was new to growing over 15 years ago due to book by so called cannabis gurus. I have also tested it a few years ago. The thing most people don't realize is you can't just look at the plants to judge if 24/7 is better than 16/8 or 17/7. You need to quantify the rate of photosynthesis, rate of Co2 fixation, etc. I find it odd that only at cannabis forums and books would such a silly notion be promoted.

I sickens me how little science is used by cannabis gurus, and because of their status other people assume they are correct, even tho they are not, and those other people perpetuate the incorrect info as is happening in this thread.

@ all:

Either trust me, or study plant photobiology and plant physiology to come to the same conclusion that I have posted: plants need night to grow the best, period.

More than 17-18 hours of light a day is too long of day. This topic has been studied ad nauseum by plant physiologists and plant scientists of other fields. I can post references...

Source: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=3996203#post3996203

 

[joshuahazen]

I have stated why I use 24hour light cycle for seedlings, and it is not because they grow faster(although they seem to grow faster), or are healthier, although I have never noticed any detrimental health effects from using 24hours.

With clones I use 20 hours, and it seems to work fine.

 

[Morphote]

Aloha! From the Fringe(s) . . .

“Out here in the Perimeter there are no stars.

Out here we is Stoned,

Immaculate.” Jim.


Greetings, once again, from the edge. Been too busy for too long, but it does beat the alternative. Seem to be on the move much lately. Been aiding two aging parents who each live on opposite sides of the country, with me as their main caregiver, as well. So please excuse my extended absence.

One thing is for certain: Cool site here! Congratulations and thank you all very much for keeping the dialogue here civilized, on track and focused. I appreciate the fresh information, dedication and progressive dialogue I find here. Thank you, once again, to all. Please keep up the good work.

Also, I’ve been teaching, which is proving to be beneficial to all involved. Next classes are April 2nd at the MCC office in Pasadena The Medical Cannabis Caregivers Directory helps locate medical cannabis and medical marijuana doctors and then later that week somewhere East of L.A. Plan to do a series of talks in Michigan in July as well. Trying to coordinate dates in Oregon and Washington too, maybe Colorado. Hopefully in a town near those interested. The basis of my talks focuses on issues concerning the quality of medicinal cannabis and range widely from ethics and ideals to the nuts-and-bolts of selection techniques and breeding models including proper testing. Working on compiling this data into some other forms of accessible medium as well.

Will post a few other bits re: current issues, so more info there.

Them’s the latest IC-Crew. Again, thank you all for making this site special, especially the core posters (you know who you are)! And please, keep up the good work! We are making progress—enlightenment is inevitable despite the circumstances.

Hearts and thoughts go out to all the people struggling worldwide now. May the worst be over soon and the healing begins even sooner. Peace.

Issues Concerning Cannabis Quality:
Seeded v. Seedless Herb, Hash, Bland Potency,
Character, etc.

I do tend to favor the experience provided by seeded vs. seedless herb, this includes the hash made from either. There are a number of reasons for this—I’ve had experience with both having raised a fair amount of seeds and sinsemilla, and the best herb I’ve ever experienced was seeded (and hermaphroditic). We must differentiate between ‘herb’ and ‘hash’.

First, the hash: I am not certain about the Afghani or the Nepalese, but I recall that Moroccan and Lebanese hashes were both made from seeded herb. I imagine that most commercial hash is produced from outdoor-grown or wild plants that would have at least a few seeds. But the best domestic hash I’ve yet to try definitely came from seeded herb.

Some of the best domestic hash I’ve experienced came from Switzerland where the Spice of Life crew did an R & D project with a few of my strains. The photo on the cover of my book is actually ‘Blue Satellite’ (not Blueberry as cited) and much of that hash came from that plant (seeded) and her siblings. Ice water extraction and the wastewater was amethyst purple colored with many (large) gland-heads found in the 160-micron bag, and there was a good amount from the 75- and 45-micron bags as well. The ‘ball’ was a marbled mix of blue/grey and gold/brown and was impossibly tacky at room temperature. The hash needed to be flattened between cellophane and placed in the freezer for a bit to be manageable. The experience was surreally pleasant under any conditions, very clear-headed and focused, yet with a well balanced, uninhibited detach—flavor of subtle sweet/savory/musky in a full-melt, clear-dome putty that left yellow oil found where the bubbles formed the day prior. Truly a master-crafted product!

From rubbings (finger and scissor) to ice water or dry sieve extraction, the concentrate from the seeded herb provided an experience superior to the hash from the seedless varieties. The difference is subtle and perhaps requires an acquired taste, but I do tend to appreciate the product from the seeded vs. seedless herb. Ways to describe it are; ‘broader’, ‘more complex’, usually more ‘calming’. Another aspect would be that seeded product causes a more ‘even’ experience, while the seedless seems to have more ‘peaks and valleys’ to its spectrum of effect. (Incidentally, the issue of ‘spectrum of effect’ is an important means by which to judge herb and hash—more on that another time.) Therefore, the experience from the hash made from seedless herb tends to be a little ‘narrower’, ‘less complex’, and usually a little more ‘up’ (depending on strain), and the experience from the seeded product tends to be ‘broader’, more evenly spread, more ‘mellow’ and complex. Again, please realize that these differences are subtle, yet in my experience valid.

As for herb: The best herbs I’ve experienced to date were highland tropical’s: Oaxaca, Colombia, Panama, Thailand—these (among others) are the places that the best herb comes from and all were seeded and hermaphroditic. I doubt that we’ll ever fully replicate the highland tropical environment, but I have hope that we will someday return to these areas and rediscover/reproduce some of these great old landraces. When we do, I’m willing to bet they will be at least somewhat seeded and hermaphroditic. One thing is for certain, the best of these landrace sativa possessed true ‘character’.

Another interesting note is that the herb I describe as ‘The Best’ tested at approx. 7% THC! Some of the Maui Sativa appeared to have reached 10%. Obviously, something(s) other than THC is (are) playing an important role in the finished product and its overall character. Which brings us to the issue of ‘bland potency’.

‘Bland potency’ is the term I apply to the effects of much of the currently commercial available ‘dank’ (bud). Overpowering, ‘stupefying’, cloudy, suppressive, ‘clenchy’ symptoms that do not lend to a very enjoyable experience, is my opinion of much of this said ‘dank’. I understand and respect the specific medical needs for such a powerful distraction. Managing strong pain meds is a good example of such need. However, the subtler character possible from high quality herb is all-too-often overlooked due to bland potency’s overbearing presence.

It’s easy to understand how this situation came to be when considering that the primary reward to the novice grower is potency. Coupled with the fact that potency is relatively easy to replicate and bolster (as is yield), the problem tends to expand as more and more enter the industry.

Another related factor is the issue of ‘bag appeal’. Bag appeal is a holdover term from the old (and current) street-dealer days. The ‘nugs’ need to look ‘dank’ especially in a shady/hastened situation.

Story: Back in the mid/early-70’s there was a small-commercial run of some fabulous Acapulco Gold that was available for awhile, 3 months or so. It sold for a little more, $60 a lid (estimated oz.), than the commercial Colombian of the times, which sold for approx. $30-$40 a lid. But the Gold was so much more special—it had ‘character’. Toward the end of that run the dregs were all that was left and resembled dust, seeds and sticks. I would happily pay twice the asking of current-day top-shelf ‘dank’ for some of that dust, sticks and seeds of the old Acapulco Gold—definitely little current-day bag appeal.

Add ‘cash-croppers’ to the equation and we end up with the unholy trident of bland potency, bag appeal and cash croppers providing a seemingly ceaseless supply of ‘beasters’ level product flooding the market. Some of it, however, does produce some more interesting hashish, extracts and concentrates—which is where I think we could focus more.

The domestic hashish, extracts and concentrates I’ve been sampling are increasing in character at a faster pace than domestic herb. I’ve been wondering more about the possibility that glandular stalked trichome producing plants were selected/bred for dry sieve and water extraction of hash outside of the tropics. Tropical herb bears less membrane-trapped oils that seem to be secreted by specialized hairs directly to the leaf surface. Outside of the tropics the main methods of extraction/concentration are via dry sieve and water extraction. In the tropics, however, the main form of collection traditionally is rubbing. This would also include Nepal and Kashmir, though technically outside of the tropics. Keep on playing and experimenting and dialing it in, much success is yet to be found among the extracts and concentrates.

So there are a few words about the quality of cannabis in the early days of the 21st century. Please feel free to comment on any of the post.

DJ's signature:

1. Life is to be enjoyed.
1.a. Not to the detriment of another.

 

[Morphote]

Remember: Phenotypic expressions are ‘coaxed’ via specific environmental triggers. Indoors, dialing in the correct triggers, at the correct times and ratios are key. The phenotypic expression must be genetically present in the first place, but some expressions require a specific environmental trigger. Classic low-temp purpling is a simple example. Sometimes genetically present but not expressed until low temperatures ‘trigger’ the effect.

Mr.A.—the plants of Vanilluna and Cocoa Kush are identical to the Blue Satellite—they are sisters from the same parents. CK looks more like the BS, but I’m partial to the effects of the VL. Cured for over one-year plus, CK and VL are identical in effect.

True, the presence of certain aromas does indicate the presence of certain oils. Remember though that some oils are much more subtle both in presence and effect.

Also, nothing wrong with various flavors--The question remains—How is the overall effect? Issues of onset, duration, tolerance threshold, ceiling and shelf life need to be addressed. Finally, never forget the aspect of ‘character’.

Justwatchin—good points! I think you’re on to something. Light timing and spectrum seem to be more obvious places to begin searching for phenotypic triggers in the indoor environment. The slightly longer dark period during the bud cycle is one such item.

Must admit that I like the results I’m seeing and sampling from people using the ‘spinner’ systems properly. Picture—six arms, six bulbs 150 watts each, different Kelvin rates up to 10,000k, spinning once per second above the canopy. So, six bulbs at 150 watts ea. = 900 watts with no heat issue as the bulbs self-air-cool in motion, plus the canopy will not grow into the moving lights. Light penetration is intense and deep—fully mature buds formed deep under the canopy—the most like outdoor as I’ve seen yet. I liked the finished product of what I’ve sampled so far; more so than from conventional lighting—sort of like the difference in quality using MH bulbs at the end of flower as opposed to HPS bulbs. Future testing and time will tell. So far, so good.

Cravenmore—beautiful photo—looks like Santa Marta Gold!

Wiggs D.—I’ve found that even slightly seeded plants tend to possess greater desirability. Sometimes just dusting a lower branch was all it took to light up the whole plant. Again, requiring a subtle appreciation, but worth investigation.

Not edited on purpose.

 

[Morphote]

For indoor ventures I prefer to fortify a good, clean soil mix, coco blends tend to work well. Additives I use include organic worm castings—lately a brand called ‘Wonder Worm’ out of B.C. For the bud cycle, ‘Budswell’ Super Bat guano—yellow label flower brand. Both mixed into the soil sometimes along with a little sand, ground charcoal, trace mineral elements, etc. Water with a good tea, kelp is great stuff as well. Maxi Crop makes a clean kelp liquid—green bottle. Diatomaceous Earth (DE) is a good organic pest preventer, mixed in soil and layered on top of soil.

Wiggs Danny—Yes, Portland and area have some great sweet soil spot potential. Depends on how much sun you can muster. The whole Willamette Valley has some surprising spots throughout.

Mr. A.—not sure yet what ‘the oils’ prefer. That’s why I like the ‘clean slate’ approach. See what the simplest baseline environment produces and experiment/modify from there. Also, remember, to a plant, sunlight is food.

Newd—think of it this way; all those ‘ppm’s’ we add to the plant mainly build fiber. Therefore, most of those ‘ppm’s’ are destined to be smoked/vaporized/eaten etc. so, in my opinion, less is better, which is also one of the main reasons I prefer hash. It remains to be seen which additives, if any, contribute to the production of essential oils.
And—the strains I always grow in my garden are mother plant Blueberry, flo, Vanilluna and Cocoa Kush. I like to ‘summer-sun-strengthen’ them to take/make the next year’s mothers from.
And—the 3-pound per figure estimate is for un-topped, unfertilized plants—theoretically.

Edited 4 Brevity' Sake.

 

[Morphote]

DJS posted again. Looks like he's stickin' around online...

Question: What was your 1st bag ever?

DJ's answer...

First bag, Detroit, Spring 1971, “Mexican Flowertop” it was called. Smelled of cedar shavings and sweet hay, lightly floral—ten dollars for a three-fingered lid, B+ grade commercial of the day. Clumpy buds with seeds, fan leaves and stems and it was sticky.

First herb I’d ever smoked was A grade Colombian Gold about six-months prior, did not get high on it. Took me six tries before I’d ‘get off’. It was the Mexican Flowertop. Smoked a decent sized joint of it, two-paper Zig-Zag pregnant fatty—the kind with the very tapered ends—with a friend. As the rush came on, we stood and began to walk.

First thing that entered my mind was “the dentist’s office”—nitrous oxide. (Had a great dentist as a child, my mother worked for him, who was doing a study on anesthetizing children of whom I was a subject.) The whole concept of consciousness and the ability to alter it at will, safely, arose. The second thing that lividly crossed my mind was: “They lied to me!” (About herb.) Also wondered: “What else did they lie to me about?” Fumed over that indignation for a spell and walked to a nearby playground—the old-fashioned kind with long swings, giant teeter-totters and three-story monkey bars. Sat on the swing for about a half-hour digging on the pleasant spring day. Went home after awhile, straight for the kitchen, and really got into cooking!

One effect the Flowertop provided was this sense, when walking, of being shin-deep in a creek that is flowing in the opposite direction—like you could just lift your feet back and float or fly. Another was this distance illusion—I’d be walking, especially at night, and the next intersection was about a half-mile away. Staring at the distant signal light, it would seem to get farther away with each step. Others reported the same phenomenon, which would lead to giddy fits of laughter for some reason—on more than one occasion. Other sativa of the early 70’s had similar effects.

First bag of ‘official’ West Coast sinse (mind you, West Coast sinse was being marketed back East as ‘Hawaiian’ in the 70’s as well) was the Butler Green outside of Eugene, late-1978, Seventy dollars an oz. Very green, in color and aroma, sort of a wintergreen/eucalyptus/mint if memory serves. It was probably a locally acclimated Thai (possibly Indian, maybe Mexican, etc.), as were most of the local strains of the era. Very ‘up’ compared to the commercial Colombian staple I was accustomed to.

 

[Morphote]

I can access the thread now, thanks admini. I wanted to let you all know that DJ was offering another class on October 1st but I was unable to post or even look at this thread. My apologies as I'd hoped a few of you would be able to go and meet the man himself, but I assure those of you interested that I will post any announcements of future classes right here with plenty of time to register. Unfortunately the class is no longer held over the course of two days (8 hours each day), but instead is just one day for 5 hours. Either way, however, it is still very much worth it. Again, I am sorry I was unable to let you all know about his latest class.

M.

 

[admini]

I can access the thread now, thanks admini.

Good to know Morphote!

Should anyone ever experience a 403-Forbidden error when accessing their thread please send me a PM with the title of the thread and possibly the direct link too. There is a security related issue that can occur sometimes (pretty rare actually).


Later,

admini

 

[spice]

BIG DJ fan here

man this thread is great....

 

[Morphote]

I'm happy you appreciate it.

M.

 

[Morphote]

Actually, I’m giving my class tomorrow (Sunday the 11th of March), and Tuesday the 13th of March at the MCC Directory office, Pasadena, CA 11 am to 4 pm. (The Medical Cannabis Caregivers Directory helps locate medical cannabis and medical marijuana doctors)

Sorry about the short notice, crazy busy—in a good way, so far. Will try to be more punctual posting class times/dates in the future. Enjoy!

For those of you that don't know, djzed is DJ Short's handle over at IC. Go see/meet him if you can.

M.

 

[bushweed]

Thanks for the interesting read jay

"Cannabis proposes this idea of time stopping, of being able to explore the
present moment. Forget the past, forget the future, just be there and see
what you can come up with."