Breeding techniques

[brock1]

is it just me or am i missing something? so 1:1 mating is destroying the gene poll why? i know it losing traits (recessive genes ect) because your only breeding for desirable traits only. but is that really bad for the gene pool? i know Nevil has said he keep back ups in seed form like shanti for future selections. anyway i cant see why 1:1 mating's using veriouse generations instead of 1 will be so bad and cause to much bottle necking. after all your still selecting from f1's that can Carry both the ibl or lr parents if your keeping the parents around aren't you? the only way i can see this causing bottle necking is if the 1:1 mating is done with the entire population of f1's and the parent plants killed imoa. a lot of traits can be lost with a open pollination in the wild as well natural bottle necking through things like global worming, plague of pests ect. that's nature evolving to suit it environment (bottle necking so only the best suited survive). genes lost naturally. most are what we would save in most cases.

this is how i see it we breed thing's nature would kill saving the trait (gene) nature see as a disadvantage. things like smells and taste's predators like ect

nature selects things what would suit outdoor growers better in that part of the world. by killing anything that desirable to bugs and other pests in the area the plant's that survive can thrive.

the problems with lr strains is there's no natural selection any more because were killing any pests and selecting hower shelves instead of nature. then there's the seed collectors some will leave there strains when they go and the farmer will grow these out. this wouldn't be a problem if we grow naturally because of the natural selection made by nature over generations to suit a environment. most would be eat by pest and stuff rather then the lr which as built up a resistance to the local pests through thousands of years. the new genes would be mostly breed out in most cases over years. this doesnt happen because every plant is valuable to the farmer so killing pests is a must in the modern day now we can. the reason land race plant are disappearing is because the way there grown as changed to keep up with the times and low enforcement ect. nothing to do with someone doing a 1:1 mating with them under there light imoa its the seed colecters and modern farming practices advancing to blame not bottle necking. which as been happening with the lr strains as long as they have been growing slowly. if they didn't they would all look the same whether there African Thai ect imoa.

there's bigger things to be arguing about imoa things like what are good traits to breed for and traits that are bad. the land race strains would change no mater what they have for thousands of years and will for thousands to come only its man changing them now not so much natural selection. its all bottle necking (evaluation) imoa done by nature or man. the thing that's changed is human selection instead of nature selection. so if were selecting what gets past to the next generations we have the responsibility to get it right with the selection or be responsible for the out come. this isn't something we can say its his fault for breeding bad seeds if your making the market then your partly to blame to. that's why imoa the fem seed thread get so heated. its pretty much decided by breeder now fem seeds are a good thing to breed for and mostly for making money. were others say that's bull sh*t and rightly so imoa who as the right to say there shouldn't be males anyway that's enough about fems. the breeding of cannabis is in the hand of humans now and we need to get it right or lose the things we like about the plant pure and simple.

i personally thought this thread would cover things like breeding to certain rare traits ect. saving traits and eliminating bad one's through breeding techniques i suppose its still early bay's and were still stuck on 1:1 matings and name calling as usual.

i though we would be talking about thinks like reversing sex to breed, breeding to none dominant gene's (traits) to preserve rare traits, linked traits were more than 1 trait will be past on because the genes that cause it are linked ect. not stuck with blaming people for bottle necking the gene pool when we don't know if its a good thing or bad thing in the first place. after all how meany strains are there on the market that are genetically different? doesn't seem to be to bad to me as long as folks like different traits. time to stop arguing and move on for the good of the plant. ho and i know i am not perfect my self so if i start silly little bickering someone please let me know so i can stop and we can get on to the topic's in hand. for the future of cannabis not just to keep the peace. there enough time waisted on posts that just arnt relavent any more here.

 

[Nevil]

i though we would be talking about

Did you figure we were done? I haven't even scratched the surface yet. I just wanted to clear up this damaging the gene pool bullshit. I was hoping someone would twig to the fact that the critique is coming from the fem boys. What, open pollinated fems? How many "fathers" do they have?

Bottlenecking? The classic case is the cheetah. I read a compelling article once that the Cheetah is a cloned cross between a cat and a dog. Cheetahs have been around for 1000s of years, competing against lions and hyenas. It is still the fastest animal on earth.
I suspect that "bottlenecking" cannabis may lead to the "highest" cannabis on earth. It's a risk I'm willing to take.
N.

 

[brock1]

What are some of the most common and identifiable traits that plants might have that they pass off to the offspring?

to my knowledge its colour mostly green coop. then there's leaf shape, amount of stretch between inter nodes,sexual expression ect.

the thing i am most fascinated in at the minute is wich are more dominant traits for eg the colour green is dominant over red and purple orange ect making it harder to breed a purple strain or red ect. we can also get genes that mix for eg were we have 2 genes that effect something even though 1 is dominant and the other not like a red dominant gene and white recessive gene both can make pigment protein and we can get pink. with the amount of people wanting to know and understand more about how breeding works i am suprised we haven't got a list of dominant genes and recessive genes by now. things like this are what i like to see they can help the first time breeder to the most advanced. thanks for getting this topic back on track coop. i hope more people try answering your question. as it's a very important question and a useful one imoa.

 

[Cabron]

I don't get the question, are you saying you think there is some Haze in those plants and they aren't NL5 x Afghani?

They don't look like they have much Haze in to me.

Anyone care to guess what the female plant on the right next to the Colombian male is?

Yep I am certain there is no afghani in this cross,,I have two other strains with Scott's afghani in the mix,I can ID it blindfolded.

None in all my phenos nor other people growing her,,not a problem though as I feel I got a steal getting that F1 for the price of the NLA.
And besides I still have a pack of NL#5 X Skunk1 that I have yet to open,,I havn't seen a grow report of that classic on here yet!
What the hell is that about??

I'm going to germ some of them in the new year!

Now with regards to your question,,,which gal to the right,,the tall one or the short advanced flower gal?


The tall gal looks to be a matching Colombian gal to me..

Shorter gal has NL and or afghani in her.. possibly both?

 

[Cabron]

Are Afghani strains the only strains known for late bananas? In a breeding program would you avoid these? I have noticed that these strains are common in most all crosses today.

That would be a resounding "No" sir!

It's found in most crosses today because the Mr Nice seedbank is the one and only lumber yard for fundamental genetics in the world.


They are Truly the holders of the building blocks for Breeding and constructing a genetic pool that has the classics.


Skunk,Afghani,Haze,NL#5 that's the meat ,potatoes and Gravy!


The Wood,Nails,and concrete ...


One stop shopping!

 

[Cabron]

I couldn't say Cabby. Once you've flowered it out, you can tell me.
N.

you know I will Nev,and some quality pics will accompany this!

 

[brock1]

Did you figure we were done? I haven't even scratched the surface yet. I just wanted to clear up this damaging the gene pool bullshit. I was hoping someone would twig to the fact that the critique is coming from the fem boys. What, open pollinated fems? How many "fathers" do they have?

Bottlenecking? The classic case is the cheetah. I read a compelling article once that the Cheetah is a cloned cross between a cat and a dog. Cheetahs have been around for 1000s of years, competing against lions and hyenas. It is still the fastest animal on earth.
I suspect that "bottlenecking" cannabis may lead to the "highest" cannabis on earth. It's a risk I'm willing to take.
N.

i totally agree bottlenecking and evaluation is pretty much the same thing Nevil. now as we know evaluation is happening everywhere like it or not by man and nature. so why aren't we trying to work out what is the best way to go with the evolution off cannabis instead of what way bottle necks (evolves) the plant fastest? as we all know evolution can be a good thing or a bad thing. it could cause cannabis to be stronger as you said or weaker do we need to evolve cannabis in more then one direction? i think this would be the best option as we still keep diversity in the gene pool by selecting high THC CBD ect short plant, big plant ect. bottle neck each as different folks like different effects and have different growing environments. i think land race strains are the past now so we need to focus on the future and learn from the past. we cant do anything else now from the past but learn after all it is called the past for a reason. your right about there being a lot of hypocrites saying this is bottle necking and that's bottle necking at the end of the day every time we make a new generation were bottle necking the gene pool of the next population with most living things. i know plant are slightly different but look at animals or plant of the same species they can be different from different places all because of bottle necking did it harm them? i think in most cases its done them the world of good. i am not saying all cases like i said sometimes things evolve for the worst. but that's what we need to understand as breeders what will be good to bring to the next generations and whats just pointless and needs breeding out off the plant that doesn't mean we shouldn't keep back ups at every possible chance were all only humans and make mistakes.

on woulds and up would from here i hope. i know were not done yet Nevil were just moving slow not a bad thing at times. i do feel its not for the right reasons now though. its just because some people are trying to hold on to the past when all that needs doing with the past is preservation in case we make mistakes in the future. we need to keep old strain alive not replace the new one with the old imoa let evolution happen and embrace it if it's a good thing. eliminate it if its bad. that's the way things have always been and that's how they always will be its the way life works.

 

[pepper]

nevil,

what if you plant seed from a heavily IBL and want to keep the strain alive. what is your advice to keep the genetics going?

I guesss my question is, should you in-breed an already heavily in-bred line? as I dont see this helpful to keeping the strain alive, and see it as a backward step? am I wrong?

 

[biteme]

a lot of chat the last couple of pages on this possible "risk" involved with the bottlenecking of genetics so excuse me, but this is a concept i am having trouble wrapping my pea brain around? why is there any risk at all if a single breeder out of the many pursues a singular path? obviously, i am not getting it cause even nevil concedes to a risk he is willing to take and i have noted other breeders chastise him for his point of view. what is this risk that causes such concern?

we are speaking of the grail here. the plant so perfect that every grower must have it as well as it becoming central to breeding programs of many others. and perhaps the risk is more prominent when a breeder with the stature of nevil or shanti focus on this goal? or is there some other risk that i am missing? i am at the absolute end of the chain, the grower who buys the gear but from my standpoint, it is a risk i want someone to take and i like the abilities of those i find here. peace-biteme

 

[Azra'eil]

......................................

 

[Hazy Lady]

Did you figure we were done? I haven't even scratched the surface yet. I just wanted to clear up this damaging the gene pool bullshit. I was hoping someone would twig to the fact that the critique is coming from the fem boys. What, open pollinated fems? How many "fathers" do they have?

Bottlenecking? The classic case is the cheetah. I read a compelling article once that the Cheetah is a cloned cross between a cat and a dog. Cheetahs have been around for 1000s of years, competing against lions and hyenas. It is still the fastest animal on earth.
I suspect that "bottlenecking" cannabis may lead to the "highest" cannabis on earth. It's a risk I'm willing to take.
N.

Hello Nevil, Happy New Year, I never quite know when you're joking so if you are kidding about the wonder cheetah you can ignore this, if you're serious I have to disagree with your analogy.

The cheetah is about one good/bad Summer from total extinction, since the last Ice Age it's days have been numbered when it lost almost all ability to adapt to enviromental change due to extreme 'bottlenecking' .
The way I see it the cheetah had nowhere to go 10,000 year ago.
All ma nature could do was make it fast - and that came at a huge price, after a typical hunt it needs to rest before it can eat, if the chase was slighly too long the animal will risk death from exhaustion and lactose build-up. If it needs to defend the kill after the hunt then its finished, it has no choice and must walk away leaving the prize, she only needs two days of that any cubs are dead, 3 or 4 days and mum will be gone too.

Tests show that cheetah sperm has deteriorated so badly they can't keep up with the amount of abnormalities, ever higher mortality rates, fewer offspring (ave 2 kittens per litter from 20!) congenital defects, it goes on and on. Cheetahs are a wreck.

I don't know who the fem boys are? let alone what they think about anything as I don't use females. What I do know is if the cheetah was a cannabis strain it might have one great trait and a host that make it totally unviable, as I suspect its seeds would be if it panned out as the cheetah sperm has.
Without genetic variation there are few organisms that could survive very long in a changing world, our plants must have the ability to adapt to our range of latitudes and grow rooms, in this instance one size doesn't fit all.

@ Nevil again, could you clarify what plants you are refering to that you are prepared to risk, are these fresh 'pure' lines, hybrids from MNS, or a n other?

Thank-you.

 

[ortega_seeker]

IMO you only need to look as far as the purebreed dogs to see the potential negatives of "bottlenecking of quality" methodology.. just compare the vet bills of a purebred vs a mutt. Why? because when we select heavily for the traits we want inside a small already bottlenecked population linked alleles also come along for the ride many of which are deleterious. I am not sure how much of an issue this is once they are outcrossed again as much of this becomes hidden via heterosis.

I am just really confused why Nevil is apparently against using multiple parents in each generation leading up to the final commercial release. If I grow out Nevil's "typical seedlot" of say 50 AfgTxOrt15 I will very likely find at least three individuals females which have primary traits I am looking for;

-better botrytis resistance (both due to differing structure than regular population and differing outdoor harvest date than rest of population)
-high yielding

All three of these are very similar in these traits but each has a fairly unique effects profile compared to the other.. one similar to sour diesel, one very heavy and hashy and another just different but hard to describe.

I am missing how it is not to a breeders advantage to include all of these individuals in the early stages of an inbreeding program?? As mentioned previously I understand Nevil's reason's behind a commercial release but I believe using multiple parents leading up to the commercial release would be more likely to end in a final 1:1 "bottleneck of quality" than using multiple 1:1 matings in the development phase?? Seems like a win win to me.

Also for the many of us not interested in commercial releases using multiple parents per generation leaves some diversity to hedge against climate/pest issues while at the same time providing some jar diversity in the end product.

If someone can tell me how multi gene traits like flavour, potency and effect are not better carried into the next generation by three parents than one I would like to hear it.

 

[Kangativa]

Hazy Lady I am not sure using Cheetah's as an example is a good thing as I think you will find that over the course of history the Cheetah has been hunted for it skin and also to prove a warrior's manhood he must also hunt and kill the biggest and strongest......sort of narrows the gene pool down a bit after time imo.

 

[Hazy Lady]

Hazy Lady I am not sure using Cheetah's as an example is a good thing as I think you will find that over the course of history the Cheetah has been hunted for it skin and also to prove a warrior's manhood he must also hunt and kill the biggest and strongest......sort of narrows the gene pool down a bit after time imo.

Hi Kanga, Happy new Year, I didn't use it as an example dear, Nevil did.

I think it's a piss poor example and for this reason I think he may have been kidding, it's just too ridiculous otherwise, isn't it?

 

[Nevil]

The analogy with cheetahs is not a very good one. The only way cannabis compares to mammals is that it has 2 sexes. Plants can stand a good deal more inbreeding than mammals and most plants are by nature self pollinators, but if it has taken 10,000 years for things to come to a head with cheetahs, I think we can stop worrying about it for a while.
If there is a danger of bottlenecking with cannabis, it will come from the fem industry and the common practice of selfing. It's ironic that Chimera should come with the criticism.
Unlike the cheetah, cannabis is grown on every continent on earth and as long as there are male cannabis plants around, the whole issue of bottlenecking is a dead horse.

Outcrossing
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Outcrossing is the practice of introducing unrelated genetic material into a breeding line. It increases genetic diversity, thus reducing the probability of all individuals being subject to disease or reducing genetic abnormalities(only within the first generation). It actually can serve to increase the number of individuals who carry a disease recessively.

An outcross is defined by horse breeders as a mating that does not have a common ancestor in the first 5 removes. All race horses that are considered outcrosses still have numerous duplications of ancestors further back in the pedigree.

A common practise in breeding IBLs is to put siblings into separate groups and inbreed them for 3-5 generations before bring them back together again. Each line can focus on one primary trait, allowing for more rapid advancement of the selected trait. Once the separate IBLs are put together again, only plants that possess all of the bred for characteristics are used for further breeding and the process begins again. Ideally, the recombined lines of the IBL should be sold at this point. Largely however, it's a moot point as few inbred lines are offered to the market by breeders. IBLs are used by breeders to produce hybrids or polyhybrids in order to combine as many of the dominant positive traits as possible in one variety. Hybrid vigour is the biggest contributing factor, when it comes to yield and my experience has shown that the market demands yield (whilst at the same time paying lip-service to the idea of pure strains). The pure strains that I put out in the past were not popular due to the fact that they couldn't compete against the hybrids in many respects.
When I said that I'd risk bottlenecking in my pursuit of quality, I was being facetious. The idea of bottlenecked hybrids is a joke and if lines failed to perform, I wouldn't sell them. Nature (and buyers) does not reward failure and therefore the idea that anyone can cause the cannabis to go through a bottleneck and ruin things for future growers, is delusional. The cannabis seed industry is not responsible for bottlenecking (excepting maybe the fem breeders) but rather a great Diaspora of cannabis genetics.

Loss of pure land races is a bigger threat, but in case this is news to you, the damage had been done (the single convention of '61) long before I started breeding. Nearly all of the popular strains that I'd acquired were already polyhybrids with a broad genetic base. Selective breeding made IBLs out of some of them.
N.

 

[british_hempire]

Yep I am certain there is no afghani in this cross,,I have two other strains with Scott's afghani in the mix,I can ID it blindfolded.

Now with regards to your question,,,which gal to the right,,the tall one or the short advanced flower gal?


The tall gal looks to be a matching Colombian gal to me..

Shorter gal has NL and or afghani in her.. possibly both?

Not wishing to contradict, but Shanti has more than one Afghani he works with, no idea which one went into that cross you have but I'm sure shanti was honest about the lineage.

That tall gal is a Mazar-i-Sharif, pure Afghan, you get these types of sativa expressions out of Afghan lines sometimes, the unworked lines are full of such sativa types, they can go upto 14 weeks, the very best Milk of Mazar hash was made from the latest plants that finished in December, indoors those types would take 14 weeks.

Just pointing out, the stereotype short, fat, squat Afghan hashplant is not the only type you see from the Afghan genepool.

The short gal is an unkown lineage, could be anything, is very indica and finishes in 55 days.

 

[Kangativa]

Hazy Lady there you go all answered

Happy New Year to you to, may all your wishes come true

 

[british_hempire]

Loss of pure land races is a bigger threat, but in case this is news to you, the damage had been done (the single convention of '61) long before I started breeding.

Very true, sadly. Thank Nixon and The War On Drugs, they paid the Nepalese govt to shut the hash shops and make hash largely illegal.

I'm writing an article about what happened to the Mexican genepool. In the early 80s, three drug lords - Felix Guallardo, Rafael Caro-Quintero and Ernesto Fonseca got together and financed two cannabis plantations, one in Zacatecas and one in Michoacan, they spent 20 million and had sophisticated irrigation systems, the Michoacan fields were in the desert and without irrigation, cannabis could not be grown there. The DEA busted them and this led to a huge scandal, the murder of DEA agent Quique Camarenas and a huge US prosecution effort against the drug lords.

The reason why the drug lords had sunk 20 million into sophisticated plantations was simple - the existing cannabis cultivation had been largely eradicated through the use of Paraquat and Federales raiding fields. By the early 80s, the genepool was destroyed and the drug lords had to import growers an genes from California to setup their new irrigated plantations in areas where cannabis cultivation was thought impossible, this marked the beginning of the modern Mexican cannabis cultivation system which uses imported genes and techniques such as irrigation. If the old, traditional cannabis farming network still existed they wouldn't have needed to spend all the money they did on restarting their cannabis business with new genes and methods. Remember that Zacatecas was home to the legendary 'Zacatecas Purple' which was one of the finest sativas in the world and was used to breed Big Sur Holy Weed. The Zacatecas Purple was grown in a high remote valley by indigenous people and when this valley was forcibly cleared of it's cannabis crops in the late 70s the strain was lost. This is why, just a few years later they had to spend so much money setting up new cultivation in a different part of Zacatecas from scratch.

So if you have some old Mexican seeds from the 70s, you have something precious that no longer exists in it's homeland.

 

[kashrocks]

Hybrid or Open Pollinated
by Ben Watson

It's a struggle, even for experienced gardeners, to choose the best varieties of vegetables. Every catalog description includes only positive information, so each one sounds wonderful. That's why it's important to read between the lines, and to do that you must be familiar with the seedsman's terminology. One of the most common words in seed catalogs today is "hybrid." Its opposite, usually unnoted, is "open-pollinated" (abbreviated OP).
For the past few years, gardeners have been flooded with information--and a great deal of misinformation--on the relative merits of hybrid and OP vegetable varieties. In some quarters, the distinctions feed a passionate debate, and of course, each point of view has its champions. Various controversies are involved, but in almost every discussion one issue inevitably arises: Which type of plant is better suited to today's home garden, hybrids or OPs?
While this is a logical question, it presupposes that one of these huge, catchall groups is either wholly superior or wholly inferior to the other. In reality, both hybrids and OPs have their merits, and both deserve space in your garden. But first, let's back up. I'd like to share with you some of what I've learned from various seed professionals regarding this controversy. Then I'll take a closer look at some specific differences between hybrids and OPs.

What's Open-Pollinated Seed?
Open-pollinated vegetable varieties reproduce themselves in one of two ways: cross-pollination between two plants (via wind, insects or water) or self-pollination (between male and female flower parts contained within the same flower or separate flowers on the same plant). Beets, brassicas, carrots, corn and squash are cross-pollinating, and so require isolation in the field to keep varieties true. Beans, lettuce, peas and tomatoes are self-pollinating, do not require isolation and are the easiest for seed-saving home gardeners to sustain year to year.
So long as plants of an OP variety are kept isolated from different plants with which they can cross, they will produce seed that will come "true to type." In other words, the plants in the following generation will resemble the parent plants.
Many of the older strains of OPs, often refered to as "heirlooms," are not so much varieties as they are populations. In other words, individual plants within an older named variety can possess a great deal of genetic variability and may even vary in size and shape.
Up until the early 1900's, almost all cross-pollinating OP varieties represented this broad "gene pool" kind of population. But as plant breeders worked to develop new OPs, they began learning various new techniques to create more uniform varieties of plants.

What Makes a Hybrid?
A "hybrid" vegetable seed results from the cross or mating between two different varieties or "parents" of the same plant species. In the broadest sense, nearly all vegetables are hybrids, the only exceptions being plants such as beans, peas, lettuce and tomatoes that cross-pollinate only with great difficulty.
But today, "hybrid" has a narrower, legal definition: To advertise and sell a vegetable variety as a hybrid (often designated "F1," the parents must be known and its pollination controlled. Significantly for home gardeners, hybrid seeds cost a little to a lot more, and the seeds hybrid plants produce will not come true to type.
The modern era of plant hybrids began around 1900 when biologists rediscovered Gregor Mendel's studies of pea genetics. In 1917, Dr. D. F. Jones at the Connecticut Agricultural Experiment Station in New Haven learned that he could take two very unpromising corn varieties, cross them and get offspring with very good traits but nothing like either parent. In addition, the plants were clearly more vigorous than usual, and they were strikingly uniform in the way they grew.
This ability to combine desirable traits such as disease resistance and earliness in different parent lines, and then, finally, to combine them, producing vigorous and uniform offspring, gave breeders a powerful tool to reshape all sorts of plants. By the 1930's, many hybrid sweet corn varieties were available. These new varieties were all high-yielding, and some packed enough pest resistance to make corn growing practical where it hadn't been before. Today, almost all sweet corn varieties offered by seed companies are hybrids, more than for any other vegetable.

Seed Saver's Dilemma
One problem that breeders faced was that the seed the new hybrids produced did not come true to type. Instead, the offspring of these very uniform hybrids showed the very diverse traits of the grandparents. So to get more seed, the breeders had to go back and repeat the original cross. When the mechanics of making the hybrid-producing cross was simple and the volume of seed produced was great, as with corn, this issue was not critical. But for crops that required slow and detailed handwork, such as tomatoes, breeders took another tack.
After creating a tomato hybrid with desirable traits, breeders would go back and "stabilize" them for several generations until the variety could reproduce itself true to type as any open-pollinated plant. This process gave us classic tomatoes such as 'Marglobe' (1935) and 'Rutgers' (1937). Initially products of hybridization, these varieties are now considered to be open-pollinated and are treated as such.
According to John Navazio, a Ph.D. and former plant breeder for Garden City Seeds, many modern OPs are in fact "true-breeding hybrids" such as the tomatoes mentioned above. A more recent example is the 'Peacevine' cherry tomato introduced several years ago by Alan Kapuler, research director of Seeds of Change. He started with the popular hybrid tomato, 'Sweet 100', then selected and stabilized it over several generations. More recently, he has continued to grow out and stabilize other true-breeding OP varieties from commercial hybrids, such as the new 'True Gold' sweet corn.

Rating Hybrids and OPs
It is all too easy to make hasty, and usually erroneous, claims concerning hybrids and OP varieties. As every gardener knows, the way different plants grow relative to one another depends upon a wide range of variables, including the vitality of the seeds, the structure and fertility of the soil, the seasonal weather conditions, the local climate and the skill (or luck) of the grower.
Still, we can draw some useful parallels between hybrids and OPs. The following sections briefly cover some of the more important qualities that gardeners (and seed companies) look for in their vegetable varieties, then compare hybrids and OPs to see how they stack up against each other.

Vigor
One of the chief claims made for hybrids over OP varieties is their superior vigor or growth. The offspring of two different plant varieties often exhibit this increased vitality, which is known as heterosis or, more commonly, hybrid vigor. (The term was coined by Charles Darwin in the 1800s.)
John Navazio maintains that hybrid vigor can prove especially valuable to gardeners who live in extreme climates. "The seeds emerge more vigorously and uniformly," Navazio says. "They are stronger, and the plants perform better under a wider range of adverse climatic conditions."
Although Garden City Seeds is committed to breeding new OP varieties and making them available to gardeners, Navazio values certain hybrids, too, for what he calls their "resiliency and instant adaptability." The difference between hybrid and OP vigor, he says, appears most strikingly in specific regions of the country like the Pacific and Mountain states and northern New England, where early-season cold snaps can slow the growth of heat-loving vegetables. In such conditions, many OPs will go into a "holding pattern," but the increased vigor of hybrids helps them grow through the unseasonable weather.
Some vegetables seem to gain more hybrid vigor than others. In the case of broccoli and sweet corn, the advantages of hybrid vigor are readily apparent. For other plants--like squash, melons, cucumbers and tomatoes--the difference between hybrid and OP vigor is generally less noticeable.

Yield
According to Burpee's chairman, George Ball, Jr., "The Burpee customer puts a premium on yield." Hybrid vigor, Ball maintains, can translate into double the yield over OP varieties in the case of some vegetables. And higher yields per plant are crucial for people with smaller gardens, something that Ball sees as a continuing trend.
For gardeners who do have plenty of growing space, getting the maximum yield per plant may be less important than other, less tangible, qualities like taste and uniqueness. A lot depends on your individual needs and expectations. Some gardeners would swear by a favorite heirloom tomato that produced only six or eight ripe fruits per season. Others would be more likely to swear at it.

Disease Resistance
Disease resistance is a major concern for growers and home gardeners alike. Rob Johnston, Jr., the founder and chairman of Johnny's Selected Seeds, admits that "it's much easier to breed disease resistance into F1 hybrids than it is to breed it into an OP variety, where many genes may be involved in disease resistance." However, Johnston adds, "microorganisms, especially bacteria, are pretty clever, and they can eventually find a way around single-gene resistance in hybrids."
Many in the seed trade see the growing interest in heirloom vegetables as a step backward, toward more disease-prone varieties that are inferior to modern hybrids. It is true, especially in the case of vegetables like cucumbers and tomatoes, that hybrids offer better disease resistance than older varieties. Yet many modern OP varieties also have impressive disease resistance. The Marketmore series of cucumbers developed by Dr. Henry Munger at Cornell is one example.

Cost
Hybrid seeds are invariably more expensive than open-pollinated seeds. The price difference has to do with, among other things, the costs of creating hybrids and maintaining breeding lines. Also, a company that develops a hybrid can charge a little more for the seed because the firm has exclusivity and because it is difficult or impossible for gardeners to save seed from an F1 hybrid.
Many people gladly pay a premium for hybrid seed--typically anywhere from a few cents to a dollar or more per packet--because seed companies advertise hybrids as high-yielding, surefire varieties. But the proof is in the growing. Set up your own head-to-head trials and decide for yourself whether the hybrid's performance justifies its higher price.

Taste
Fans of heirloom vegetables like to point to their superior flavor. But a much more useful distinction can be made between OPs and hybrids that have been developed specifically for home-garden use and those earmarked for large-scale growers. Breeders who specialize in vegetables for factory farms and food processors tend to focus on qualities other than flavor. Therefore, almost any home-garden vegetable--whether hybrid or OP--will almost certainly taste better than something that has been trucked to your supermarket from California, Florida or Mexico. Beyond that, the question of hybrid versus OP flavor is strictly a matter of personal preference. And taste, as we all know, can be highly subjective. A tomato that sends one gardener into ecstasies of delight may leave another unimpressed.

The Bottom Line
Which are the best kinds of seeds to plant, hybrids or OPs? Perhaps the most useful answer comes from Rob Johnston. His advice is to look beyond labels: "The consumer in me wants settled-down varieties," he says, "ones that might not have the power of the most vigorous hybrids but that grow well enough. It's like asking how powerful a car you need or how much money it takes to be rich. The best varieties have a certain vitality, which involves complex combinations of genes. Home gardeners, Johnston advises, should be open to growing any plant that looks interesting to them."

The OP Honor Roll
Ideal for seed savers because they come true to type, all of the following have superior qualities for home gardeners and richly deserve their popularity. While not an exhaustive list, these are some of my favorites.
Bean, Pole -- 'Kentucky Wonder' (1850's). The most popular and widely available pole bean; early and rust-resistant.
Beet -- 'Detroit Dark Red' (1892) is still the most widely grown OP beet: roots are solid, sweet and tender. Early Wonder (1911) is one of the best for "bunching" thanks to its tall, flavorful greens.
Cabbage -- 'Early Jersey Wakefield' (1840's). An American heirloom, it remains one of the earliest and sweetest of the pointed-head types.
Carrot -- 'Scarlet Nantes' (1870) is the classic American form of Nantes that has set the standard for crispness and flavor for many years. 'Red-Cored Chantenay' (1929) is another truly American carrot (transplanted from France in the late 1800's). Its roots are mild and sweet, becoming sweeter in storage.
Cucumber, Pickling -- 'SMR 18' (1959). This is the first pickler to have resistance to both scab and mosaic plus great shape.
Cucumber, Slicing -- 'Marketmore 76' (1976). A high-quality slicer for the North, it also has disease resistance and excellent fruits.
Eggplant -- 'Black Beauty' (1902). Introduced nearly a century ago and still a superior and widely grown home-garden variety.
Lettuce -- 'Black Seeded Simpson' (1850). Early, adaptable, takes heat and some drought. One of the oldest varieties and as popular today as it was 150 years ago.
Melon -- 'Iroquois' (1944). The first commercial variety with fusarium wilt resistance; its earliness makes it reliable for gardeners in the North.
Pepper -- 'California Wonder' (1928). Though several strains are available now, the original still produces well-formed, blocky fruits that are ideal for stuffing.
Spinach -- 'Bloomsdale Long Standing' (1925). Glossy, dark green, heavily savoyed leaves are tender and flavorful; vigorous, slow-bolting plants.
Squash, Summer -- 'Early Yellow Crookneck' (circa 1700). Listed in catalogs as early as 1828, it is still by far the tastiest of all yellow squashes, though low-yielding compared with newer hybrids.
Squash, Winter -- 'Buttercup' (1932). A tour de force of 20th-century winter squash breeding, it's a quantum leap forward in sweetness and quality.
Tomato, Fresh -- 'Brandywine' (1885). An Amish heirloom that has become the standard bearer for heirloom tomato lovers in recent years.
Tomato, Sauce -- 'Roma' (1955). Widely grown for its good, solid, meaty quality that's perfect for sauce.

Hybrid Hall of Fame
For a hybrid to last longer than 10 years in the marketplace is a testament to its greatness. The following hybrid vegetables, a sampling of favorites, have become home-garden classics.
Broccoli -- 'Premium Crop' (1975). Hybrid broccolis come and go, but this one always performs well and has a fiercely loyal following.
Cabbage -- 'Stonehead' (1969). Truck farmers sing its praises, and home gardeners who make sauerkraut ask for it by name.
Cauliflower -- 'Snow Crown' (1975). Forms perfect white heads with little or no "buttoning," bolting prior to head formation.
Corn -- Several must be mentioned: 'Early Sunglow' (1956), 'Golden Cross Bantam' (1934), 'Illini Xtra-Sweet' (1971) and 'Silver Queen' (1960). Corn is the success story of the hybridization process.
Cucumber -- 'Sweet Success' (1983), Becoming more popular every year, its fruits have thin skins and sweet flavor.
Eggplant -- 'Dusky' (1975). Still the most reliable eggplant for northern gardeners.
Melon -- 'Ambrosia' (1975). Distinctive color and flavor; sweet, juicy, and widely adapted. After 40 years, 'Burpee Hybrid' (1955) is still among the best for gardeners in short-season regions.
Pepper -- 'Gypsy' (1981). Early, prolific, and tasty.
Squash, Summer -- 'Sunburst' (1985). After only 10 years, this patty pan has become the standard of its type. The bright yellow fruits are a fixture at farmer's market.
Squash, Winter -- 'Sweet Mama' (1979) is the most reliable and best-yielding of the sweet Japanese kabocha types. Acorn-type 'Table Ace' (1976) gains new fans every year.
Tomato -- Always hard to pick a favorite: 'Burpee's Big Boy' (1949) may be the longest-lived tomato hybrid on the market. 'Celebrity' (1984) and 'Early Girl' (1975) are bona fide classics.

Ben Watson is the author of Taylor's Guide to Heirloom Vegetables (Houghton Mifflin Co., 1996; $18), and Gardener's Supply Company Passport to Gardening : A Sourcebook for the 21st-Century Gardener (Chelsea Green Co., 1999; $20). He lives in Francestown, New Hampshire.
Photography by National Gardening Association.

Gardening Articles :: Care :: Seeds & Propagation :: National Gardening Association

 

[fxginbcn]

The analogy with cheetahs is not a very good one. The only way cannabis compares to mammals is that it has 2 sexes. Plants can stand a good deal more inbreeding than mammals and most plants are by nature self pollinators, but if it has taken 10,000 years for things to come to a head with cheetahs, I think we can stop worrying about it for a while.
If there is a danger of bottlenecking with cannabis, it will come from the fem industry and the common practice of selfing. It's ironic that Chimera should come with the criticism.
Unlike the cheetah, cannabis is grown on every continent on earth and as long as there are male cannabis plants around, the whole issue of bottlenecking is a dead horse.

Outcrossing
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Outcrossing is the practice of introducing unrelated genetic material into a breeding line. It increases genetic diversity, thus reducing the probability of all individuals being subject to disease or reducing genetic abnormalities(only within the first generation). It actually can serve to increase the number of individuals who carry a disease recessively.

An outcross is defined by horse breeders as a mating that does not have a common ancestor in the first 5 removes. All race horses that are considered outcrosses still have numerous duplications of ancestors further back in the pedigree.

A common practise in breeding IBLs is to put siblings into separate groups and inbreed them for 3-5 generations before bring them back together again. Each line can focus on one primary trait, allowing for more rapid advancement of the selected trait. Once the separate IBLs are put together again, only plants that possess all of the bred for characteristics are used for further breeding and the process begins again. Ideally, the recombined lines of the IBL should be sold at this point. Largely however, it's a moot point as few inbred lines are offered to the market by breeders. IBLs are used by breeders to produce hybrids or polyhybrids in order to combine as many of the dominant positive traits as possible in one variety. Hybrid vigour is the biggest contributing factor, when it comes to yield and my experience has shown that the market demands yield (whilst at the same time paying lip-service to the idea of pure strains). The pure strains that I put out in the past were not popular due to the fact that they couldn't compete against the hybrids in many respects.
When I said that I'd risk bottlenecking in my pursuit of quality, I was being facetious. The idea of bottlenecked hybrids is a joke and if lines failed to perform, I wouldn't sell them. Nature (and buyers) does not reward failure and therefore the idea that anyone can cause the cannabis to go through a bottleneck and ruin things for future growers, is delusional. The cannabis seed industry is not responsible for bottlenecking (excepting maybe the fem breeders) but rather a great Diaspora of cannabis genetics.

Loss of pure land races is a bigger threat, but in case this is news to you, the damage had been done (the single convention of '61) long before I started breeding. Nearly all of the popular strains that I'd acquired were already polyhybrids with a broad genetic base. Selective breeding made IBLs out of some of them.
N.

date trees in modern times are pollinated by hand... the process of male sacs, pollen, female yellow hairsjumping out lookin for flyin pollen, and then 8 months later you get a yummy seed to eat or plant (a date )

my question for nev... there are sometimes strange mixings and pairings of animals that exist today and bred by humans, ligers, tigrons, mules (or the donkey or both, cant remember which).... in the same way could i pollinate a date tree with male cannabis pollen?

or vice versa? pollinate a female cannabis plant with date pollen?

would you get a yummy psychoactive date you could eat as a date or plant as an herb plant?

just high and drunk new years rambling...

suffice to say that although i think its the bong tokes talking, but i think 2011 is gonna be a good year

love an respect