A very sad tale

H

HarryPotter

Member
Hello all :)

Once upon a time i thought i could grow. At one time i was growing under 1000 watts of HID in a cool tube. The smallest bulb in the house was a 400 watt MH so i must have started seeds under that once. I grew large easy stinking harvests with basicly no effort at all. Then i had to stop for a bit and ended up having to buy new equipment. I have not had a proper harvest of senisble buds sinse then and as things have slowly gotten worse im looking at going without for the first time in many many years. Nightmare.

I replaced my light with a multi bar LED array and soon found out that anything i put under it suffered and produced tiny, foul tasting harvests. I took bar after bar off, down and down went the intensity and things still wouldnt work. I replaced that light with a cheap quantum board, tryed and tryed and yet still could not bring a sensible harvest. I came to the conclusion that its not possible to germ seeds under any LED and so i dug out my old 4 bar t5 24w per bar. Same sad distressed plants, it starts with seedlings that try to lean away from the light, if you watched them in time lapse they would be thrashing around... in the past they have grown into sad spindly plants, no branching whatsoever, curled and deformed growth, darkening leaves and incorrect number of fingers on each leaf. Mostly 3, no buds from such plants. Ok so im reading all this as light stress.. so down and down the intensity goes. Cut a long story short, if i want seedlings that dont try to escape from the light i have to start them at around 3.5 μmols s measured on a "spot on quantum par meter" I have started plants at 4.5 and not all but occasionally there is a sensitive one that will twist. This is starting to be the limit of how dim i can make the bulb, im currently using a single 24w T5 at more than one meter, to get 3.5 μmol requires starting seeds under glass. Ok so i started some new seeds, nurtured them carefully, perhaps a tiny amount of stress in one or two out of ten. 5 of them are now two weeks old, they look a few days old, they grew a stalk, opened the cotyldons, opened their first set of leaves and then stopped. They have moved a tiny amount since and are obviously going nowhere, but they are mostly normal looking, just like they cant make any more leaves. My PH soil probe arrived today and altho its not calibrated (it reads 6.5 when i dip it in calibration 7) it gives me enough of an idea to think that PH is ok if not great. To cover PH i have bought new soil aswell and done side by side with my recycled soil. I have had same results in fresh bio terra plus and also in John Innes No2. Im totally at a loss now, angry and frustrated after killing many expensive seeds. I dont understand if the problem really is intensity or if there is some other hidden issue. I have used canna nutreients, both un PH as per instructions and PH corrected. I have tryed bio tabs and also blood fish and bone because the plants dont drink so liquid nutes can be problematic. This has been going on for a long time now and im a very sad grower who is badly in need of a clue.

When i had one light and no idea, i had terrible practices and couldnt fail.. now it seems i cant grow anything. My current situation is that im slowly increasing the intensity on my seedlings, i built a little set of stairs out of bricks and now i have them at various hights to see how they react, the brightest being a daring 7 μmol because i just cant think of anything else that will encourage them to grow. I swear at one time i must have started seeds under all 4 bars it just makes no sense to me. I see people doing things in grow shows that are apparently impossible for me.


Help? :)
 
I have sprinkled 3 pinches of dolomite onto the surface of each of two of my pots just too see if it helps. Literally the amount that can be held between thumb and finger. My recycled soil is a mix of very old and quite new, bio bizz, canna bio terra and about 50% perlite. And one more thing, no roots. Even plants that i have got some smoke off have like one skinny root when they are pulled up. I would think the soil was hostile in some way if it wasnt for the side by side results.
 
Last edited:
HarryPotter said:
I have sprinkled 3 pinches of dolomite onto the surface of each of two of my pots just too see if it helps. Literally the amount that can be held between thumb and finger. My recycled soil is a mix of very old and quite new, bio bizz, canna bio terra and about 50% perlite. And one more thing, no roots. Even plants that i have got some smoke off have like one skinny root when they are pulled up. I would think the soil was hostile in some way if it wasnt for the side by side results.
Click to expand...
Temps and humidity? Low humidity or Temps can cause very slow growth . Along with low light . Another cause could be the soil density or keeping the soil too moist.
I have started seeds outdoor in direct Caribbean sunlight and they have thrived so never believe they can't handle the direct sunlight. Or growlight.
 
HarryPotter said:
Hello all :)

Once upon a time i thought i could grow. At one time i was growing under 1000 watts of HID in a cool tube. The smallest bulb in the house was a 400 watt MH so i must have started seeds under that once. I grew large easy stinking harvests with basicly no effort at all. Then i had to stop for a bit and ended up having to buy new equipment. I have not had a proper harvest of senisble buds sinse then and as things have slowly gotten worse im looking at going without for the first time in many many years. Nightmare.

I replaced my light with a multi bar LED array and soon found out that anything i put under it suffered and produced tiny, foul tasting harvests. I took bar after bar off, down and down went the intensity and things still wouldnt work. I replaced that light with a cheap quantum board, tryed and tryed and yet still could not bring a sensible harvest. I came to the conclusion that its not possible to germ seeds under any LED and so i dug out my old 4 bar t5 24w per bar. Same sad distressed plants, it starts with seedlings that try to lean away from the light, if you watched them in time lapse they would be thrashing around... in the past they have grown into sad spindly plants, no branching whatsoever, curled and deformed growth, darkening leaves and incorrect number of fingers on each leaf. Mostly 3, no buds from such plants. Ok so im reading all this as light stress.. so down and down the intensity goes. Cut a long story short, if i want seedlings that dont try to escape from the light i have to start them at around 3.5 μmols s measured on a "spot on quantum par meter" I have started plants at 4.5 and not all but occasionally there is a sensitive one that will twist. This is starting to be the limit of how dim i can make the bulb, im currently using a single 24w T5 at more than one meter, to get 3.5 μmol requires starting seeds under glass. Ok so i started some new seeds, nurtured them carefully, perhaps a tiny amount of stress in one or two out of ten. 5 of them are now two weeks old, they look a few days old, they grew a stalk, opened the cotyldons, opened their first set of leaves and then stopped. They have moved a tiny amount since and are obviously going nowhere, but they are mostly normal looking, just like they cant make any more leaves. My PH soil probe arrived today and altho its not calibrated (it reads 6.5 when i dip it in calibration 7) it gives me enough of an idea to think that PH is ok if not great. To cover PH i have bought new soil aswell and done side by side with my recycled soil. I have had same results in fresh bio terra plus and also in John Innes No2. Im totally at a loss now, angry and frustrated after killing many expensive seeds. I dont understand if the problem really is intensity or if there is some other hidden issue. I have used canna nutreients, both un PH as per instructions and PH corrected. I have tryed bio tabs and also blood fish and bone because the plants dont drink so liquid nutes can be problematic. This has been going on for a long time now and im a very sad grower who is badly in need of a clue.

When i had one light and no idea, i had terrible practices and couldnt fail.. now it seems i cant grow anything. My current situation is that im slowly increasing the intensity on my seedlings, i built a little set of stairs out of bricks and now i have them at various hights to see how they react, the brightest being a daring 7 μmol because i just cant think of anything else that will encourage them to grow. I swear at one time i must have started seeds under all 4 bars it just makes no sense to me. I see people doing things in grow shows that are apparently impossible for me.


Help? :)
Click to expand...
If it's not right below the ground it doesn't matter what you do above the ground.
They are not liking the light because they are not getting what they require from their roots.
Too hot, too cold, too wet, too dry can all be problems.
If you start off with the soil mix recommended by Shanti that might be best.

50% potting soil
30% perlite
10% worm castings
5% sand
5% coco

This is a gentle mix that should give you a place to start ironing out your problems.
I don't believe the lights are at fault either.
 
I feel the room temperature could be off.
LED can become hot, or heat soem amount of space, but it never heat up so it heats ground.
*Put something to isolate plants from cold ground / could it be your problem ?

Cause weird looking seedlings: temperature, moisture, or something bad in soil
 
HarryPotter said:
Hello all :)

Once upon a time i thought i could grow. At one time i was growing under 1000 watts of HID in a cool tube. The smallest bulb in the house was a 400 watt MH so i must have started seeds under that once. I grew large easy stinking harvests with basicly no effort at all. Then i had to stop for a bit and ended up having to buy new equipment. I have not had a proper harvest of senisble buds sinse then and as things have slowly gotten worse im looking at going without for the first time in many many years. Nightmare.

I replaced my light with a multi bar LED array and soon found out that anything i put under it suffered and produced tiny, foul tasting harvests. I took bar after bar off, down and down went the intensity and things still wouldnt work. I replaced that light with a cheap quantum board, tryed and tryed and yet still could not bring a sensible harvest. I came to the conclusion that its not possible to germ seeds under any LED and so i dug out my old 4 bar t5 24w per bar. Same sad distressed plants, it starts with seedlings that try to lean away from the light, if you watched them in time lapse they would be thrashing around... in the past they have grown into sad spindly plants, no branching whatsoever, curled and deformed growth, darkening leaves and incorrect number of fingers on each leaf. Mostly 3, no buds from such plants. Ok so im reading all this as light stress.. so down and down the intensity goes. Cut a long story short, if i want seedlings that dont try to escape from the light i have to start them at around 3.5 μmols s measured on a "spot on quantum par meter" I have started plants at 4.5 and not all but occasionally there is a sensitive one that will twist. This is starting to be the limit of how dim i can make the bulb, im currently using a single 24w T5 at more than one meter, to get 3.5 μmol requires starting seeds under glass. Ok so i started some new seeds, nurtured them carefully, perhaps a tiny amount of stress in one or two out of ten. 5 of them are now two weeks old, they look a few days old, they grew a stalk, opened the cotyldons, opened their first set of leaves and then stopped. They have moved a tiny amount since and are obviously going nowhere, but they are mostly normal looking, just like they cant make any more leaves. My PH soil probe arrived today and altho its not calibrated (it reads 6.5 when i dip it in calibration 7) it gives me enough of an idea to think that PH is ok if not great. To cover PH i have bought new soil aswell and done side by side with my recycled soil. I have had same results in fresh bio terra plus and also in John Innes No2. Im totally at a loss now, angry and frustrated after killing many expensive seeds. I dont understand if the problem really is intensity or if there is some other hidden issue. I have used canna nutreients, both un PH as per instructions and PH corrected. I have tryed bio tabs and also blood fish and bone because the plants dont drink so liquid nutes can be problematic. This has been going on for a long time now and im a very sad grower who is badly in need of a clue.

When i had one light and no idea, i had terrible practices and couldnt fail.. now it seems i cant grow anything. My current situation is that im slowly increasing the intensity on my seedlings, i built a little set of stairs out of bricks and now i have them at various hights to see how they react, the brightest being a daring 7 μmol because i just cant think of anything else that will encourage them to grow. I swear at one time i must have started seeds under all 4 bars it just makes no sense to me. I see people doing things in grow shows that are apparently impossible for me.


Help? :)
Click to expand...

I have a friend who is in pretty much the same position.
He used to grow some fantastic herb and although he was relatively inexperienced things went well.
Successful grows spurred him on to want more and he started buying LED's and fancy nutrients in the hope that things would get even better.
I don't think he has completed a grow since then. Lots of false starts and the same issues with plants becoming stunted and failing to grow. I saw his garden two weeks ago and it was a sorry state.
My advice to him will be the same I will give here - go back to what you knew and used to do and start from there. Get a few more 'old-style' grows under your belt, enjoy the fruits of your labour and then look to upgrade one thing at a time. For him, that means back to a 600W HPS, extractor fan, oscillating fan and simple canna soil and nutrients. Things don't stop working overnight.
Luckily for him I took copies of all his plants when they were still quite small so I can set him up relatively easily and get him back on track.
Simple message - stick to what you know - evolution beats revolution.
Keep it green.
TF
 
Thanks for the replys,

I forgot to say, temps are around 25c 50% with lights on. Basicly room temperature, there is a small amount of air movment but not full on extraction but its only t5s. I would say the soil is in excellent condition, fluffy and crumbly and well airiated. The reason its full of perlite is to try and protect against over watering. Its had various stuff chucked in over teh years, seaweed, rockdust, blood fish bone, wormcasts but not in any scientifically measured amounts or in very high amounts. Im gonna look stupid if it is overwatering and i would be grateful if it was but im not convinced.

Recreating my old set up has occured to me aswell :) going back to HPS would be an unwelcome last resort, but when winter rolls round its a definite possiblity if i hvt had any progress by then.

I have a skunk #1 in a little pudding tray of 200 or perhaps 250 ml filled with bio terra plus that PH shows 6.2. Its had two syringes of PHed water added, 40 ml with a tiny amount of rhizo. It broke the surface this morning ill see how it goes. I also have a fresh bag of bio bizz light mix on the way. I have to trust that this soil is perfect out of the bag. I have asked myself could there be such a thing as fake soil.. i dismissed that idea :D :D I will attempt to alter my watering and see.

One question, can i trust the light numbers as being correct? Eg 150 μmol for seedlings? Or even 100? that you find if you ask google. Is there any difference between the way par meter reads sun light outside compared to artificial light in an enclosed space?

And the seedling i increased the intesity on has had no obvious reaction either way. I will continue to experiment.

Edit: My soil arrived i now have another seed in a similar pudding pot in brand new lightmix but this time with a single syringe of 20 mls water. I will keep this updated.
 
Last edited:
HarryPotter said:
Hello all :)

Once upon a time i thought i could grow. At one time i was growing under 1000 watts of HID in a cool tube. The smallest bulb in the house was a 400 watt MH so i must have started seeds under that once. I grew large easy stinking harvests with basicly no effort at all. Then i had to stop for a bit and ended up having to buy new equipment. I have not had a proper harvest of senisble buds sinse then and as things have slowly gotten worse im looking at going without for the first time in many many years. Nightmare.

I replaced my light with a multi bar LED array and soon found out that anything i put under it suffered and produced tiny, foul tasting harvests. I took bar after bar off, down and down went the intensity and things still wouldnt work. I replaced that light with a cheap quantum board, tryed and tryed and yet still could not bring a sensible harvest. I came to the conclusion that its not possible to germ seeds under any LED and so i dug out my old 4 bar t5 24w per bar. Same sad distressed plants, it starts with seedlings that try to lean away from the light, if you watched them in time lapse they would be thrashing around... in the past they have grown into sad spindly plants, no branching whatsoever, curled and deformed growth, darkening leaves and incorrect number of fingers on each leaf. Mostly 3, no buds from such plants. Ok so im reading all this as light stress.. so down and down the intensity goes. Cut a long story short, if i want seedlings that dont try to escape from the light i have to start them at around 3.5 μmols s measured on a "spot on quantum par meter" I have started plants at 4.5 and not all but occasionally there is a sensitive one that will twist. This is starting to be the limit of how dim i can make the bulb, im currently using a single 24w T5 at more than one meter, to get 3.5 μmol requires starting seeds under glass. Ok so i started some new seeds, nurtured them carefully, perhaps a tiny amount of stress in one or two out of ten. 5 of them are now two weeks old, they look a few days old, they grew a stalk, opened the cotyldons, opened their first set of leaves and then stopped. They have moved a tiny amount since and are obviously going nowhere, but they are mostly normal looking, just like they cant make any more leaves. My PH soil probe arrived today and altho its not calibrated (it reads 6.5 when i dip it in calibration 7) it gives me enough of an idea to think that PH is ok if not great. To cover PH i have bought new soil aswell and done side by side with my recycled soil. I have had same results in fresh bio terra plus and also in John Innes No2. Im totally at a loss now, angry and frustrated after killing many expensive seeds. I dont understand if the problem really is intensity or if there is some other hidden issue. I have used canna nutreients, both un PH as per instructions and PH corrected. I have tryed bio tabs and also blood fish and bone because the plants dont drink so liquid nutes can be problematic. This has been going on for a long time now and im a very sad grower who is badly in need of a clue.

When i had one light and no idea, i had terrible practices and couldnt fail.. now it seems i cant grow anything. My current situation is that im slowly increasing the intensity on my seedlings, i built a little set of stairs out of bricks and now i have them at various hights to see how they react, the brightest being a daring 7 μmol because i just cant think of anything else that will encourage them to grow. I swear at one time i must have started seeds under all 4 bars it just makes no sense to me. I see people doing things in grow shows that are apparently impossible for me.


Help? :)
Click to expand...
Any photo?
 
Apollo said:
Fishy you are.:p who has no phone 2023? or camera ? But despite that smell with a photo is easy to see what went wrong and get more tips.

I hope this helps.:cool:
Click to expand...

I kinda expected this :) I will prove it with pictures but not soon. I got two phones both orange rios. I went and got them and neither one will even switch on. They got 2mp camera anyway so would make blurry useless pictures.

I dont have a phone, but nobody ever sent me a message telling me i have to isolate myself and take injections. You did ask :D

Ill arrange something.
 
HarryPotter said:
I kinda expected this :) I will prove it with pictures but not soon. I got two phones both orange rios. I went and got them and neither one will even switch on. They got 2mp camera anyway so would make blurry useless pictures.

I dont have a phone, but nobody ever sent me a message telling me i have to isolate myself and take injections. You did ask :D

Ill arrange something.
Click to expand...
No no no no you got this wrong :D. Expect the unexpected I will say not what you expect ;)


You dont need to prove anything to me at least ,The photos is as I said easier to give feed back for your situation and get the help you asked for.

I never got this messages even I got phone. I see some British humor in you .
 
'Its had various stuff chucked in over teh years, seaweed, rockdust, blood fish bone, wormcasts but not in any scientifically measured amounts or in very high amounts'

Ditch your old soil mix man.
Also, maybe get yourself some seed raising mix from the Nursery.
See if that helps.
I am willing to bet your soil is toxic to the plants.
At the least you should be cutting your old mix 50/50 with new stuff.
I would also strongly recommend making your own soil mix.
Like the one I mentioned above.
You then know what is in it.
Resist the temptaion to add anything else.
Keep it simple.
It's easier to treat a nutrient deficiency than it is to cool down hot or out of ph soil.
 
Uncle Jack said:
I am willing to bet your soil is toxic to the plants.
Click to expand...

It makes sense. When i was getting good harvests i was throwing away evey time. Its wasteful tho and a pita. Im going to stick to fresh bags for a while before i mix anything. I just dont understand why fresh soil hasnt been that helpful so far, which suggests more than one problem at the same time.
musashi said:
^^^ or at least test the soil to establish base line

mu
Click to expand...

Got my bluelab soil pen. second use bio terra plus testing at 6.2 my recycled soil is more variable but i didnt see any readings below 5.8 which is what fresh bio terra comes out of the bag at.

Tap water comes out in the region of 7.5
 
So as i said i raised a few of them up a bit to see what happens. The highest one spent half a day on about 7 μmol, next day lights on it reads 8. This is not entirely surprising to me cause i have seen variations before so i left it on 8. It wasnt looking all that happy after a couple of hours, but after about 5 hours it was completely bent over and away from the light. Not drooping, the stem was still firm, just trying to escape from the light. Im actually afraid to put any amount of light on my fresh new soil sprouts now.
 
Photo's mate. We need pictures to help you.
Soil needs to go through a wet dry cycle as well.
If you water too much conditions in the soil become anaerobic even if you have enough perlite in the mix.
You may be killing them with kindness, but it is too hard to tell without seeing what is going on. Plenty of people will jump into help you but you are not providing them with anything to work with.
Forget umols and all of that stuff.
You need to get the basics right and you are not doing that.
 
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