Grail: The Ultimate Haze Hybrid

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Dont worry guy's Nev is fine, but still on walkabouts.......This thread should fire up again in about 10 days time.
Its a busy time for me now so dont get much of a chance to give updates.
But all is well and the Grail is on track:D

Light that blue touchpaper man!

Seriously, really looking forward to the coming months and seeing what you guys come up with.

Meanwhile I'm doing my little bit up here in the far north...

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Sativa effects are said to be soaring, cerebral, electric, and w/o a ceiling to it. An indica high seems to have a more grounded effect, relaxing and more "stone" to it.

So what is it that makes these 2 sides of cannabis different in their highs? Is it the ratio of thc to cbd? Does the longer flowering times produce a more ripe or distilled or complex gland? So when breeding, is it is truly possible to have the quality high of a top notch sativa with the shorter flowering times of an indica?
 
i've got an idea here so bear with me.
Ok, so with all that discussion in the origins thread and no some reading in Bosca's book. It makes a very good point. Northern varieties when grown in south flower quicker and southern varieties would do the opposite when grown in the north.

Would a cross too an early flowering more northern sativa var, bring out a quicker flowering expression? I assume this was the idea behind the early haze etc.

I like your thinking. I believe the reason for the change in flowering times is most likely due to DLI(Daily Light Integral). The DLI in the north is lower than that of the south. Many Annuals flower faster when DLI is high compared to low, so it would make sense for the switch in flowering times when strains are relocated to varying DLI's.

Check out this link

Any Sativa that can flower quickly under a low or moderate DLI would seem quite ideal to speed up the flowering times in a cross.
 
i've got an idea here so bear with me.
Ok, so with all that discussion in the origins thread and no some reading in Bosca's book. It makes a very good point. Northern varieties when grown in south flower quicker and southern varieties would do the opposite when grown in the north.


I like your thinking. I believe the reason for the change in flowering times is most likely due to DLI(Daily Light Integral). The DLI in the north is lower than that of the south. Many Annuals flower faster when DLI is high compared to low, so it would make sense for the switch in flowering times when strains are relocated to varying DLI's.

Check out this link

Any Sativa that can flower quickly under a low or moderate DLI would seem quite ideal to speed up the flowering times in a cross.

interesting discussion, cannabis does flower faster with high DLI as if the light levels are low the plants take longer to mature and finish.

So theoretically yes if you have strains that originate from areas with high DLI and you grow em in areas with lower DLI they should finish more slowly than if grown in the area of origin as you said.
..but we also need to take something else into account..the further away from the equator you go..the longer the nights get and with faster rates too which has an opposite effect..it makes the plants finish faster.

So basically these two factors that have opposite effects will determine if the plant will finish faster or slower in a given location..So it all depends on the strain we are talking about and location.
 
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Exactly why this is one of the best damn sites on the internet

Discussions like this I love, no one flaming, just peacefully discussing the possibilities. How cool is that!
 
Good discussion.

I had to run outside and haul all the Haze plants in to the green house. The rain just started. its supposed to be stormy all week now.
 
Selecting for the future...

Some room recently came available so I figured I'd put it to good use.. I started 20 ECSD/Nev's Hz and 20 Chem's Sister/Nev's Hz.. I'm really gonna enjoy looking through whatever females come up.. I'm expecting some amazing phenotypes... In a few weeks when I got more room I've also got some AbusiveOG/SSH, TahoeOG/SSH, ChemDD/Nev's Hz, Triangle/Orig.Hz, and ChemD/Orig.Hz to choose from.. Should be interesting..

M2M

Sorry in any of this is a repost.. MangoWidow has me there. :D
 
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interesting discussion, cannabis does flower faster with high DLI as if the light levels are low the plants take longer to mature and finish.

So theoretically yes if you have strains that originate from areas with high DLI and you grow em in areas with lower DLI they should finish more slowly than if grown in the area of origin as you said.
..but we also need to take something else into account..the further away from the equator you go..the longer the nights get and with faster rates too which has an opposite effect..it makes the plants finish faster.

So basically these two factors that have opposite effects will determine if the plant will finish faster or slower in a given location..So it all depends on the strain we are talking about and location.

I too believe the night length has a greater impact on induction of flowering, and length of flowering versus DLI, but I think they will work together rather than against if given the ideal environment.

In an indoor environment we can supply the right hours of darkness and a high DLI with HID lighting. Outdoors, if in a low DLI environment, supplement with HID lighting if possible. If the DLI is already high, but not enough darkness, then one could black out their ladies for whatever extra time is required.

Here is something outdoor growers will enjoy.
 

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Great info ,i think this is some very interesting convo


This link below from Dj Short is somthing we have seen many times ,But somthing that intrigues me is the dates of maturity and location which these strains where grown.The washington state local where Dj says several pure/near pure sativas matured.whether we choose to believe the genius or not ,he claims the grows were outdoor no green house and for one has put a spark in my fire for some Colombian gold this season.




Strains of Yesteryear by DJ Short - Stoner Forums


1luvbigherb
 
That's a really easy question to answer: Mexican, until the late 50s when surfers from Cali starting to travel to other places in search of the best surf then there was nothing in the US that wasn't Mexican. Illegal imports to NYC via the port were hash from Turkey and Greece.

The first place the surfers went in the late 50s was Mexico, they packed up the van and drove down the Pacific coast to Sonora, some went further south to Michoacan and Oaxaca. This being the late 50s, Mexico was still absolutely full of weed and there was no enforcement of the laws so the surfers drove into a world of weed.

The surfers weren't able to travel to Hawaii, Asia and other places until the very end of the 50s for the simple reason that jet airline travel didn't develop until then. Remember that the De Havilland Comet was the first commercial jet airliner and it started in 56, the Boeing 707 in 58 so once the jet services started then people could travel to far flung places in search of surf or smokes.

1951 is only 14 years after weed growing was made illegal so if the seed wasn't Mexican then it was domestic US descended from the commercial farming days when they were growing Cannabis Americana for Eli Lilley, Parke Davis and others. I forget where it was exactly now but Eli Lilley had a big research farm in NY state.

So there's your answer, Mexican or a descendant of Cannabis Americana which was mostly Mexican probably too.

There is a long history of Mexican weed in the US and I truly think if you were able to score weed there before the 60s then you were buying Mexican or domestic grown Mexican. The Mormons brought cannabis to Utah in 1917 when they returned there from the Sonora desert to escape the Mexican Revolution, that is why Utah was the first state to enact anti-MJ legislation.

At the same time, many of the early stars of the Hollywood silent screen were down in Mexico fighting for Pancho Villa, Tom Mix the famous cowboy of the silent screen fought for Villa and used to frequently cross the Rio Grande back into the US with his saddlebags full of the finest Sonoran grass to sell it or exchange it for whiskey.

Then there is William Burroughs, he grew Mexican weed in the Texas panhandle in the 40s and wrote about how widespread and common weed growing was in that part of the world, especially among the Mexican Texans.

Mexican however is not Haze, most Mexican varieties will finish at latitudes upto 45N and only take 3-4 months at most to ripen. Remember than the Mormons were able to grow luxuriant crops of Sonoran weed in Utah. Mexico is a big country and covers a lot of climactic zones. Oaxacan Gold is from the south of Mexico and that only takes 14 weeks indoors, Sonora is in the north just below the border so strains from there will be quicker, not grown one myself but I'm told 12 weeks max indoors with some being 10-11.
 
That's a really easy question to answer: Mexican, until the late 50s when surfers from Cali starting to travel to other places in search of the best surf then there was nothing in the US that wasn't Mexican. Illegal imports to NYC via the port were hash from Turkey and Greece.

The first place the surfers went in the late 50s was Mexico, they packed up the van and drove down the Pacific coast to Sonora, some went further south to Michoacan and Oaxaca. This being the late 50s, Mexico was still absolutely full of weed and there was no enforcement of the laws so the surfers drove into a world of weed.

The surfers weren't able to travel to Hawaii, Asia and other places until the very end of the 50s for the simple reason that jet airline travel didn't develop until then. Remember that the De Havilland Comet was the first commercial jet airliner and it started in 56, the Boeing 707 in 58 so once the jet services started then people could travel to far flung places in search of surf or smokes.

1951 is only 14 years after weed growing was made illegal so if the seed wasn't Mexican then it was domestic US descended from the commercial farming days when they were growing Cannabis Americana for Eli Lilley, Parke Davis and others. I forget where it was exactly now but Eli Lilley had a big research farm in NY state.

So there's your answer, Mexican or a descendant of Cannabis Americana which was mostly Mexican probably too.

There is a long history of Mexican weed in the US and I truly think if you were able to score weed there before the 60s then you were buying Mexican or domestic grown Mexican. The Mormons brought cannabis to Utah in 1917 when they returned there from the Sonora desert to escape the Mexican Revolution, that is why Utah was the first state to enact anti-MJ legislation.

At the same time, many of the early stars of the Hollywood silent screen were down in Mexico fighting for Pancho Villa, Tom Mix the famous cowboy of the silent screen fought for Villa and used to frequently cross the Rio Grande back into the US with his saddlebags full of the finest Sonoran grass to sell it or exchange it for whiskey.

Then there is William Burroughs, he grew Mexican weed in the Texas panhandle in the 40s and wrote about how widespread and common weed growing was in that part of the world, especially among the Mexican Texans.

Mexican however is not Haze, most Mexican varieties will finish at latitudes upto 45N and only take 3-4 months at most to ripen. Remember than the Mormons were able to grow luxuriant crops of Sonoran weed in Utah. Mexico is a big country and covers a lot of climactic zones. Oaxacan Gold is from the south of Mexico and that only takes 14 weeks indoors, Sonora is in the north just below the border so strains from there will be quicker, not grown one myself but I'm told 12 weeks max indoors with some being 10-11.

Hi BH.....You are forgetting one thing and that is travel by sea. My dad was a Merchant seaman and he first came to OZ in 1950, but before that he had traveled around the world.
From memory I think he said he smoked hash around 1940-45 and also MJ a little later.
He also ate hemp seed as part of his diet and I know he had seed when he first told me about MJ as he had plants down the backyard.
I would have loved to have kept some of his early collections, but my mother threw them out.....if she had only known:D
 
Hi all......Just a little update:D
Nev is back from walkabouts today and once he settles in all will be back on track.
I will now be able to tie him down and get those smoke reports on the Oaxacan and MM out of him:D
 
Aww hell mate, that's a crying shame you lost those seeds.

I've studied the US sea trade a little. It was massive along the East Coast with all the reefer ships and banana boats that sailed between the Carribean and Central America and the US. Up until the 1950s the countries of Central America were almost fiefdoms of large US companies like United Fruit Co. Huge tracts of land were plantations for bananas and other fruits, in some places coffee. Whether there was any large scale smuggling of cannabis from Central America or the Carribean to the US I don't know but I strongly doubt it, I think we're talking more of a few pounds in the bottom of a sailor's duffel bag rather than bales and bales in the bottom of a banana boat.

There is a very long tradition of sailors trading in anything of value, they would buy things cheap in one port to sell for many times more in another. Classic and well documented example of this is how Blues became so popular in England in the 1950s. This was a time when a handful of big record companies (HMV, EMI, etc) had total control of the UK record production, there was no commercial radio just one BBC channel and almost no-one had a TV. However, sailors started bringing home piles of American blues records so the ports like Dublin, Belfast, Liverpool, Manchester (yes, it has a port 70 miles inland) Newcastle and London became hotbeds of Blues, John Lennon told tales of going to the dockside pubs to see what records the sailors had brough then running home clutchin a precious Howlin Wolf disc. I was born and brought up in a port and my dad recalls the same things. That's why all the early British Blues/Rock bands came from those port cities - Van Morrison and the Move from Dublin, The Beatles in Liverpool, The Animals in Newcastle, The Stones, Kinks and others in London etc etc.

So while I'm sure there was weed from everywhere between the Panama Canal and the Mexican border being smuggled by sailors, I think it would have been a drop in the ocean compared to how much Mexican weed made it to the US. Until the 60s not many white folks smoked marijuana so the market wasn't very big, I expect that crop in NYC was headed to the jazz scene which, apart from Mezz Mezzrow was all black people (or should that be African-American, I dunno, I'm not racist but I think Political Correctness is bollocks).

Anyways, I reckon in the 50s most of the smokers would have been black or latino, white people drank and drank a lot, I would tink that a sailor on a reefer boat between the Carribran and NYC would make more money out of bringing back a (quite legal) case of Jamaican Rum and sneaking it in without paying the duty and selling it under the counter to a bar than he would smuggling in a few pounds of (very illegal) cannabis to sell. I just don't think the market was there for cannabis until the 60s. It's quite likely that cannabis was widely consumed in the black and latino communities, Harlem was probably a big consumer from the 20s Jazz era onwards for instance, but Harlem is only a small fraction of NYC.

Sadly I think too much time has passed to start studying this period now. The facts and figures aren't available because no-one studied it at the time. We of course have figures for arrests and busts but do those give much of a picture? Policing and the legal system in NYC was extremely colour based until the 60s when Eisenhower enacted the equal rights laws so looking at arrest figures will not give a clear picture because you were 100x more likely to get your collar felt for smoking a joint if you were black or latino than if you were white. Until the 1970s when they brought in new recruiting policies the NYPD was mostly white guys of Irish descent, I forget the name of the book now but I read a great book by an ex captain of the NYPD who wrote about his 40 years of service from the 30s to the 70s and it seemed to me that if you were white you just bribed the cops but if you were black or Latino you got your head cracked and a night in jail at the very least.

If anyone has any statistics on arrests, bust, smuggling, consumption of MJ or anything relevant from the 20th century I'd love to see it so post it up!
 
Hi all......Just a little update:D
Nev is back from walkabouts today and once he settles in all will be back on track.
I will now be able to tie him down and get those smoke reports on the Oaxacan and MM out of him:D

Good news, I'm really looking forward to reading those reports, the old fella has a way with words...
 
I was just trying to point out the possiblities and reports available of sativas grown from around the 40-45 north parellel .DJ short has given his testiment of highland thai /colombian gold aside from the mexicans.The NYC link shows that sativa varieties mexican or wateva it may be were not backyard grwon in small numbers but flourished throughtout the city .While i dont believe everything the papers say caz i kno first hand they make shit up ,the pics clearly show this has some truth.


many dont know that several parts of nyc were negelected till recent years there are sill many vacant lots n such in my neighborhood in particular we still have dirt roads (you can drive threw) and the trolly tracks were covered up in the last 10 years or soo.Its only a handful of blocks but its not in my magical garden.I can only imagine many years back the possibilites of plants growing in the area.

Another similiar link Fields of Cannabis in Old Brooklyn - Carroll Gardens, NY Patch

More interesting info about marijuana in NYC ,What a coincedince Harlem n the heights till supply some of the best available.Great read below,African bud from the 30's

Marijuana - The First Twelve Thousand Years - The Jazz Era

The reference to haze keeps being made ,Nevil haze is not a pure haze nor is SK/hz .NH only takes 3 months give or take to ripen,anyhow as ive menton above and provided the link DJ short said his strains of yesteryear matured in washington,again without a greenhouse



kanga

Thanks for sharing your story ,Sorry to hear that those collectibles are no longer with you seems Moms always throw away somthing of major value they kno nothin about .I know we all got one of those stories.


Damn im excited ,i cant wait to hear of the reports from Nevil .I know he's not posting ATM,But maybe he'll consider for this occasion ,makin history again.

Best wishes to you all

1luvbigherb
 
Hey Big Herb

I read the DJ article. That was a cool trip down the lane.

There was one thing I saw that I disagreed with. It was the description of Red lebanese bud. I grew it in the 70s and 80s and it was my favorite. I agree about the high, but the flavors I remember were citrus. Like Mandarin Orange flavor. Mostly head high. Super quality. Far better then most seeds available today. That was 1977.

As far as the growing in your neck of the woods. I never doubted You man. Im in Cali. Ive been to New York briefly in 1974, and Boston in 1990. Thats my experience on the east Coast.

I have plants outdoors right now in full bloom. Im waiting till this storm passes then they get hauled out into direct sun straight away. They are in the green house. I had a Haze plant in ground till last December here.

I have 10 Haze varieties dry now, and everybody is crazy about them. I did this run for seeds, but people are begging me for samples. Good Haze is hard to find around here and people are real happy I grew it. Me Too!
 
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