Fem seeds and there impact on the future of the species known as cannabis.

[Billy Liar]

bonbolos, fantastic post. Terminology and reasoning makes a great argument.. You obviously know your onions.... LOL
peace
BL

 

[JessE]

Hi bonbolos,
How can you say one must not oppose loss of diversity, but in the next sentence go on to mention one of the problems with modern breeding is a very narrow genetic base?

it seem that you (hempy) look breeding as a bad thing, you must not oppose breeding and loss of diversity

one problem is that modern breeding is done using a very narrow genetic base

After reading hempys post, Ive not come across anything that lead me to believe hempy is against breeding. If that were the case, he would not be here at MNS, who is the industry leader in breeding quality cannabis genetics. Quality cannabis genetics, which are not the product of the feminization process. I find it hard to believe that if the feminization trend was a positive thing, Shanti, who has an advanced degree in Biology, would simply choose to ignore it.

This is the real problem,not feminised seeds. If real breeders were in charge of the companies sex revers techniques would be more wisely introduced into the breeding programs as well as biotechnologies.

If real breeders were in charge? Thats the thing bongo, real breeders are not in charge. In fact, there are a plethora of individuals who are anything but real breeders cashing in on the feminized seed trend. Individuals who are advertising their products to the public under the geize that the consumers are receiving just that, an all female product. An all female product, which coupled with the desire for a Sensimilla crop, makes the product seem like a good idea. But as we've seen in the past on numerous occassions, ones sensimilla dreams can quickly go up in smoke when they realize they've got plants showing intersexed traits which have pollinated whole, or parts, of their entire crop. Or when they find out, their feminized purchase, in fact yields male plants as well. There are a very small handful of truly qualified breeders in the cannabis industry today, compared to the dozens of others who are simply out to make a quick, big buck, with poorly executed breeding techniques.

I do agree that not enought studies have been done on that mechanisms of sex expression in cannabis needs to be more studies (many scientific articles are available on the subject, see: www.googlescholar.com)

If you agree more studies are needed on the mechanisms of sex expression in cannabis, how can you be here defending the feminized process? A process which has gained in popularity over the last few years in the cannabis industry, yet one, as you admit, has yet to undergo any kind of extensive and rigorous testing?

the only thing that would be a big problem if only feminised plants came to exist on earth would be the loss of the Y chromosome; sex reversion must be used in breeding programes not for an end product.

Again, sex reversions ARE being used to achieve an end product, an end product which has already made it all corners of the globe. And continues to do so on a considerable basis. In fact, those who sell seeds at their shops regularly report how popular the feminized seed trend is among consumers. A trend, directly related to your sex expression mechanisms, which have not been studied extensively enough to arrive at any kind of conclusive opinion as to the benefit, or detriment to the genetic pool at large.

When people talk about feminized seeds, they immidiatly think of a good hybrid, that was taken for sex reversion to be then sleft polinated to produce feminized seeds and sold as femized seeds of this hybride.

As they should, because that is exactly what is happening in the industry today. The pictures hempy has posted directly correlate to a large percentage of what is occurring in the cannabis industry today. Select plants, which are often hyped by select parties to consumers on forums just like this one, icmag.com, OG, CW etc. which are feminized in similar ways to what has been shown and then mass marketed to users at these forums.

In that case it is sure that you will have plants with less vigor and fragrance and higher letality

Which is what hempy has demonstrated for everyone to see, something which up until this point, Ive seen very few, if any members bring to the table in order to make the points which have been made. The pictures presented above make a great case as to why the current seed feminized seed trend, as it stands, is not nearly equal to the same breeding practices employed here at MNS for example.

it seems that many people have biased ideas of feminized seeds, sex reverse techniques, evolution of genome and biodiversity.

Many methods are now available to masculinize (or feminize) cannabis plants without using any hormones but by using metal salts and ions.

That may be the case, however it does not have much, if any bearing, on the widely popular and current methodology employed by the various vendors offering feminized seed today.

 

[b0b_b1tch1n]

If real breeders were in charge? Thats the thing bongo,

whats with the name calling ? are you now picking someone new to fight with JessE ? seems quite the trend with you

bonbolos some of us apreciated your post

 

[JessE]

whats with the name calling ? are you now picking someone new to fight with JessE ? seems quite the trend with you

bonbolos some of us apreciated your post

Bob Bitchin,
There has been no name calling. I simply misspelled his name in the process of abbreviating it. One would think you would be able to suss that out, instead of making left field remarks which have little basis in reality. By addressing Bonbolos post, Im doing exactly what this thread and many others are initially intended to do. Discuss the subject at hand. Disagreeing with someones position is not akin to looking to start fights, this is a subject of great significance to the community at large. Bonbolos's contributions are certainly appreciated, however to pretend his position is the end of the discussion is certainly absurd and not nearly the entire tale of the tape.

 

[hempy]

Hi all

it seems that many people have biased ideas of feminized seeds, sex reverse techniques, evolution of genome and biodiversity.

Many methods are now available to masculinize (or feminize) cannabis plants without using any hormones but by using metal salts and ions. In that case reversion produces female or male flower with viable gametes (I don't know about Nevil's techniques using plant hormones).
The use of theses techniques can be very usefull for breeding purposes.

When people talk about feminized seeds, they immidiatly think of a good hybrid, that was taken for sex reversion to be then sleft polinated to produce feminized seeds and sold as femized seeds of this hybride.

In that case it is sure that you will have plants with less vigor and fragrance and higher letality: this is called imbreeding depression. It is not due to feminisation, it is just due to the fact that you've inbred a highly allogamous crop (the same happens with onions).


Using sex reversion techniques can help produce real inbredlines (true inbred lines don't exist in dioique cannabis but this is quite logical as it is intrinsically linked to the biology of the plant (a plant needs to be herma or monoique to be able to breed with itself).

the production of real inbreed lines will lead to the production of real hybrids (and not the pseudo hybrides currently sold). this is a major point for wathever crop you breed (onion in my case).




This is totally faulse male plants don't have more beneficial traits than female it just depends on the genes.
What is importante is diversity of the genetic base. The unique thing a male is going to give that no female will be able to give is the Y chromosome (in other words it gives the ability to become a male, that's it).

You say that mutations must be purged, it's the contrary that needs to be done genetic mutations is the base of evolution , what you mean is that lethal mutations, and disadvantagous traits need to be taken away, this is done by the selection process of elimination of the bad ones and by self polinisation.

Selfpolinisation make your ratio of homozygosity rise, lethal mutations are usually recessive; by selfing you help these traits to become homozygote and so to express, the plants were the lethal trait is expressed die (most of the time they don't even germinate), like that you take out the mutation provoking this death.

this is also why you have lower germination if selfpolinated lines. (I hope that I'm explaining that in a easy way..).


The loss of biodiversity is a very different problem, this is more due to the illegal aspect of the crop, but people tend to forget the biodiversty of hemp which must be looked at as part of the germplasme for breeding drug strains.

the only thing that would be a big problem if only feminised plants came to exist on earth would be the loss of the Y chromosome; sex reversion must be used in breeding programes not for an end product.


I do agree that not enought studies have been done on that mechanisms of sex expression in cannabis needs to be more studies (many scientific articles are available on the subject, see: www.googlescholar.com)

The big problem is that no regulation is done in the cannabis industry, it is very much underground, people are readdy to buy 10€ one seed of cannabis (and one plant can produce 3000 seeds very easily...) and the people in charge of the breeding are not career breeders with the scientific background needed. 3 years to produce a new hybrid???, what a joke! even the easiest crops need at least 7 years, homogeneity is very bad (some beter than others) and varieties are not distinguishable anymore, You can't be sure to buy good quality seeds, germination is not even guarantied....... this is incredible when compared to the legal seed industry.

This is the real problem,not feminised seeds. If real breeders were in charge of the companies sex revers techniques would be more wisely introduced into the breeding programs as well as biotechnologies.


it seem that you (hempy) look breeding as a bad thing, you must not oppose breeding and loss of diversity (in some case it can be true) but diversity is the gaz for breeding to work,the two are intrinsically linked.

one problem is that modern breeding is done using a very narrow genetic base this is why everything tastes and look the same, new sources must be used.
If selecting for shorter flowering periods and higher yield have induced loss of traits this is because it has been done in a amateur way, with not enough plants and to few and easy traits.


Many things still has to be done, fortunatly the new generation is coming ...!!

cheers

Bonbolos

Hiya Bonbolos you do relies that most fem seeds on the market if not all are in fact s1 right from hybrids or pollys.

The craze started only a short time ago with no research and testing of there seeds they pushed them onto the market place using the allure of these so called elite clones as a way to get these seeds out to people that wanted these clones that could not get them.

Then it spreed to other lines hybrids offered in reg seeds now some people don't offer them as reg seeds any longer but only offer fem seeds now way to go what an advancement.

Cannabis is not an onion or is it peas or corn mate and its time people stop using other species to justifie there fem seed productions and methods of seed production that have had no research conducted on them before pushing them onto the market.

The pictures are of s1 compared to the mum and of f2s made by the same plant they speech volumes if you ask me it shows me how ass back wards most are taking this species called cannabis because they are to lazy to breed and all there interested in is $$$$$$$$$$ not the grower or the species.

I am not a scientist but i am a lover of this plant you say advancement i say bull shit what positive changes have i seen in the past 30 or more years i will tell you i have seen many old true breeding lines go the way of the dodo bird gone for ever i have seen the spreed of week smoke quality cannabis by people that should not be breeding to then sell there seeds on the market place for others to grow.

I have grown many lines that grew out the same what people call true breeding right we did not think they were unique or special we just thort it was wat it was we had no reason to clone as the seed made would represent the line the next season and so on the only differences were some were stronger than others in short some plants in the given line would be stronger as in larger yet have the same look smell taste smoke quolity and affect and we would use the strongest fem and male to make new seed bit like what old school veg growers do which is select the best to use as seed the following year.

It is also worth a mention that i think it shows the caliber of some of these peoples breeding ability and understanding of breeding and the plant that when these fem seeds grown by people go bad showing hermaphrodite or even express males from these seeds blame the grower and even environmental reasons i feel that to be week and very poor on there side they sell a product they should back it 100%.

 

[Donald Mallard]

Now the F2 made from Queeny tell me which way is a better method of breeding to achieve the results you want which is to get the mum into the next generation.

Pictures speech volumes.

Id hardley call that scientific research ,, so you grew a few plants and bang you have the answer ... mmm
seems you obviously didnt see any other posts on that page bar your own,
well i sure cant argue with anyone who sees things like you do ..
see ya ...

 

[JessE]

Id hardley call that scientific research ,, so you grew a few plants and bang you have the answer ... mmm
seems you obviously didnt see any other posts on that page bar your own,
well i sure cant argue with anyone who sees things like you do ..
see ya ...

Hi Wally,
Have you heard of the scientific method?

1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena.
2. Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena. In physics, the hypothesis often takes the form of a causal mechanism or a mathematical relation.
3. Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena, or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations.

4. Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent experimenters and properly performed experiments.

http://teacher.pas.rochester.edu/phy_labs/appendixe/appendixe.html

Now hempy already said he's no scientist, but I would say he is well on his way to demonstrating a very important point. Something which Ive not seen anyone on the forums demonstrate, and I would call what he has posted as quite significant in that sense alone.

Ive noticed you attempt to attack hempy on numerous occassions wally, yet you've left yourself open and quite vulnerable in the process. But nobody is taking advantage of those weaknesses, because this thread is about getting somewhere on the feminized subject. Not attacking the messenger. If you've got valid points to make on the subject, by all means I would absolutely love to hear what you've got to say. Not opinions you've scrapped up from other people, on threads where the flow of information is controlled by those who stand to gain, or lose, based on the content of what is presented.

What we do not need in this thread is another stoner-gate, where British Hempire and others have been caught red handed using troll handles and troll tactics in order to avoid the essentials of the discussion at hand. Which was then, and now, on the feminized seed trend. So lets try to stay focused in the thread, and discuss the subject of the feminized process without bringing personal vendettas into the equation. Because that is a battle you're not going to win.

 

[hempy]

Id hardley call that scientific research ,, so you grew a few plants and bang you have the answer ... mmm
seems you obviously didnt see any other posts on that page bar your own,
well i sure cant argue with anyone who sees things like you do ..
see ya ...

Not sure what to say to this replie mate at times i get the impression you want to be a friend then other times you think i am some type of fool and love to throw in the boot out of the blue.

I think my little experiment speaks volumes i went got my self a white lab coat this afternoon so now i am officially conducting a cannabis research program its founded by hempy INC T shirts and posters to come soon.

I ran 18 seeds that's more than any one of these people selling fem seeds would even dream of putting into a pack of seeds and then selling them so i think its quiet a good number as a test sample.

Facts are facts pictures don't lie people do and the way i see it i believe i have proved a very valid point here and possibly done more research than most selling these s1 seeds that you and a few of your mates support well wheres there research there is nil right were is there documented grows next to reg lines of the fem seeds that's right nothing agine lets be honest mate most fem seeds are s1 look at the pictures ask people what would they rather grow the f1s or the f2s or the s1.


Were not talking about a few home made seeds past out to a few mates here are we where talking about a large marked driven enterprise exporting seed all over the world that is selling seed that are not tested or have had any valid research conducted on them it takes a guy like my self to do one that's not selling a single seed that's shameful from were i see things and my advice is support and by from people selling reg seeds not hakks.

 

[hempy]

You know from were i am siting i am far from happy i believe i have conducted my self in here with respect and a level playing field i may not know botanic terminology or may not spell to well but i know cannabis and i feel its very piss poor when a person feels strongly about a topic and expresses his or her vues in a respectable manner is shot down or treated like some 2 year old kid.

I have a strong point of vue on this topic right or wrong i posted my thorts on this over at icmag also and had the living Christ kicked out of me but i stood my ground and like them the fem supporters threw link after link of research back at them to only get more of them gang up on me and have them tell me how stupid i was well in that time after many requests to show me any real research conducted on this i am yet to see any one present me with such work to date.

So i thort screw this i will do my own research that's right my own and i have here.

I feel that what i presented here is something few can denie or over look reality is the f1 plant and the f2 grew and grow very different to the s1 seed of the same plant people can say what ever they like but don't attack the messenger if you don't like whats being sed if its true.

I don't think i will bother with this any longer yea i am not happy and in short more i think about it the more i want to log out and not bother with most on line any longer i think i will just do my thing and at this rate may even head back to the shadows i came from screw this.

 

[JessE]

The craze started only a short time ago with no research and testing of there seeds they pushed them onto the market place using the allure of these so called elite clones as a way to get these seeds out to people that wanted these clones that could not get them.
.

Hi all,
You've touched on a great point hempy, the elite clone hype that initially started at Icmag.com was facilitated by the feminized seed trend in order to take full advantage of the desires of the community to acquire these "elite" lines. Most were unable to acquire the hyped varieties by any means other than the S1s which were offered by those who can be directly connected to the propaganda machine.

Below is a link which discusses the connection between those who initially came online to push their "elite clones", and those who made a great deal of money by protecting these people, and selling their wares using the feminized trend which has only gained in popularity sense.

Kush
http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/showthread.php?t=1082&page=3

So a great deal of the elite clone hype can initially be shown to directly correlate to those who sell seeds online to people all over the world, "elite" clones which were unobtainable for most by any means other than the feminized seed process. These feminized seed are often far more expensive than "regular" breed seeds, under the assumption the hard work of selection has been minimalized and that their Sensimella dreams are two steps closer to becoming a reality by shelling out a few more bucks for highly select, feminized varieties.

 

[Donald Mallard]

I notice bushweed saw nevils post , but hempy didnt ,,
he said no one has shown him any good evidence that selfing is a used in plant breeding ,, yet when he sees the information he ignores it .. he did the same in other threads on the same subject.

Jesse i do believe long standing members deserve respect , but i aso believe that its there duty to try and dispel myths rather than perpetuate them further.
I ve seen both you and hempy show disrespect to very valued members , so hardly think your the guys to pull me up on it ..

I think we are all warriors in the battle against the outdated cannabis laws , but we dont all have to agree on everything ..

If i think you or hempy are on the wrong track ill say so ,, and i hope you do the same if i begin to post crazy stuff ..

 

[JessE]

Who ultimately pays the price? We the consumers!

As far as I can tell both sides have good points...please don't leave us, hempy...

Selfing is clearly a useful breeding tool...DJShort admitted as much...Shanti admitted to using the technique to preserve lines...now Nevil said he's used it...jay

Hi Jay,
Selfing may be a useful tool, however it should not be the entire tool box. Which is something that apparently is getting lost in translation for some of you. Shanti has mentioned in the past the technique was used to preserve lines, but they have not been put on the market for wide spread use. So lets not pretend this is something Shanti condones as it stands, because as you will see below his words speak for themselves. As hempy has demonstrated the S1s hardly measure up to the F1 or even F2 varieties, an inferior product which is and has been marketed heavily for sometime, for big money at that.

Hi All


Well for a change it is not only me writing about these sorts of things that occur with feminizing plants. I am more than happy, to see some with experience, discuss the pros and cons of this issue.

Companies who have popped out of no breeding experience, greed and simple processes to create seed on plants with chemicals are only a part of the deterioration of the seed business. So there is more emphasis on the grower to educate themselves from other growers world wide. This is what this forum is all about.

Just to finish by saying that no one will ever get banned or censored by mentioning names or companies if they are telling their truths.

All the best Sb

http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/showthread.php?t=2032

Hi All


the only real issue is this. Feminised seed are great for those who do not want to breed, but grow a flower with minimum of ease...what I call Armchair growers. Regular seed is the genetic pool and therefore should be kept separated until a lot more experience and research is done without polluting and destroying all we selected for over the last decades.

All the bvest Sb

http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/showthread.php?t=2032&page=2

Hi All

well I find this thread most educated and fair. Thank you all from keeping the tone to a light yell as it is better to discuss than be disgusting! Having said that let me add a few things...

Marco Renda does a fine job at TY magazine...not sure if he should have moved into the seed market however. I spoke to him about this over time and do not agree with his use of names, he told me they are not his, but however you look at it is labelled as it is under his banner, and can only add to confuse rather than to be truthful. So I do not single him out for going down a more broad set of homebrand products, but do not like people trusting blind annoymous breeders with total lack of imagination to rename things based at best from F1 seed selected plants.

I do think this femminized revolution is more revolting than anything else but that in my opinion. It comes out of a different avenue than most and nothing to do with the seed product. I can only see breeding going on with extreme growers and no longer in the companies...considering most seed buyers rely on the companies and most choose to chemically stress clones of others to sell extremely over priced seeds, coated in candy colors, I can only see breeding as a historic word when it is referred to Holland in the future.

All the hard work of breeding ,which means a stable hybrid needs 2 years to get done if nothing goes wrong, has gone backwards in the time I left Holland. In fact I do not know many Dutch who crack seed , they rely mainly on the clone market where plants are selected for commercial value for growers...so in all honesty I can see its applications but how the horn is being blown at present we will not only be in a credit crisis but a genetic one pretty soon. Companies who only make regular seeds will be forced to do other things or die as it is true the money is going into the marketing of the new messiah...

I hope we can keep going or have a following of educated breeder growers who support us buy buying seed we breed, but there may even be a day that means we too have to face decisions. Whether to go on and risk dramas for a return worthwhile or go play with the kids and laugh a lot? These are real considerations I face to be very honest. But I can also say we at MNS have a great set of followers who appreciate the work we have put into the plant over the passed 20 plus years and survive ok at present. Things with the medical side have become big for us, as the sick seem to do their work quickly and end up on the MNS homepage...and we do our best to support them. So remember one important thing in life that I can be sure of....everyday something will change!

All the best Sb

http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/showthread.php?t=2032&page=10

Hi All

so let me clarify things for you from my stand point with a few facts. You cannot think for one minute femminizing seed is anything to do with breeding...it is not. Autoflowering is a breedable trait, and takes 5 or 6 generations to do so...therefore it has merit if that is the way you like your plants. Now you must be ignorant to think I have never femminized my mothers, I have. In fact Nev did it way before DP brought the so called revolution out of pandora`s box...but only to preserve a dead end line that was in female clone form...they were never used to breed with but to preserve moltihybrid orphans...so to speak.
Saying all of that why have we at MNS not jumped on the band wagon of commercialism...well the main reason(and one I spoke at length with Simone from Serious Seeds and he agreed off the record), is I cannot guarantee you will not get hermaphrodites at some point when using the chemically induced seed. That is simple but true. MNS has spent such a long time over many years to select plants from a lot of land races and take out the negative traits via true breeding combinations it is farcical to think we would begin to breed it back into strains...maybe with dementia in my brain I could think like that but at present I am cooking with gas!
There are several other reasons but it is not possible to guarantee a femminize seed will not have the potential to revert. Now saying that I must defend something about femminized seed too. Certain strains work better than others...in other words some strains that are femmed have negligible potential to hermi or produce non-viable pollen...and these would be the ones to go for as a prducer not a breeder of plants. But with the market so flooded as well as most seed companies never really testing more than basic things, the likelihood of some grower hittng the good relable strain is only via trial and error and a lot of growers. So rather than all vent personal beliefs there is something to do. I would suggest those who have and intend to use femminized seed should form a union of like minded flowers and share their experiences with others...this would certain weed out the usable fem seeds from companies that at least do their work rather than how it is now, 50 companies buy from 5 or 6 fem producers rename it all and sell it as a dream description based on no real origins...other than F1 seed from a selected clone from a regular seed in the first place!

So you see it is alright to have personal beliefs and opinions from your own experiences, but to dispel myths in exchange for concrete facts would seem a great way to turn the negative into a positive...imo.

All the best Sb

http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/showthread.php?t=2032&page=14

 

[genegenie]

If Hempy's test was scientific enough for some, even though he only popped 18 seeds, I hope the same people now believe that femmed seeds don't have lower germination rates compared to standard seed, as Hempy got 18 seeds out of 18 to pop.

So if you believe it was researched properly, as some seem to, and agree that it proved femmed seed are less vigorous, them logically you'd have to agree that the test also proved femmed seed germinate just as successfully.

Lower germination rates are usually one of the accusations against fems, so good to see some positives about them coming from this.

Peace, GG

 

[Nevil]

I don't think you're stupid Hempy. It would be a shame to loose the input of any passionate grower.

Further thoughts on feminised seed.
I'll start with a question. Is anyone getting better plants from this seed?

Most super clones are often hybrids to begin with. So if you are crossing the clone to itself (selfing) you are creating a F2 of a hybrid. Not exactly a formula for success as a rule.
I would expect similar results from putting the clone to it's brother. Ah, and here we have the problem. Pick a random arsehole seed merchant, he can buy good clones, but he doesn't have seed from the batch that produced the clone in the first place and doesn't know the ancestry to know what strains he is doubling up on if he makes hybrids with it. He can be lucky, sporadically.
I'd be very careful about using daughters of selfed plants for breeding if I wanted to avoid hermaphrodites (and I do). It can be done safely however, all you need to do is try and get pollen from the female in question. If you do, it's not a true female, but half of the females should be OK. Don't forget that the phenotype (outward appearance) is only half the story. As breeders, we are concerned with the genotype (i.e. what genes a plant contains).
As I said, I smoked the HzC male after it was feminised and it was nice, but the daughters that I admired most were throwbacks to plants whose presence was barely hinted at in the feminised phenotype. Hope that this helps.
N.

 

[krk]

I don't think you're stupid Hempy. It would be a shame to loose the input of any passionate grower.

Further thoughts on feminised seed.
I'll start with a question. Is anyone getting better plants from this seed?

N.

Well this summer I'm growing out some fems outside and I have always like to grow seedlings over clones. Seedlings have a better root system and perform better than clones..IMO Now for me a well made fem has many benifits over regular seed. Weather selfed or a cross. Pick a poor performing or untested clone outside and your season is done. If you using a good fem seed batch you will still have many diferent phenos. IMO size, yield and potancy are not factors. Factors for me include how the seed was made, a breeder who used a herm or a "late nanner" is NOT the same as a breeder who has selected a pheno from many many seeds, and then put it threw rigorous stress testing to find out of a pheno is a strong female or if she is right on the edge of herming and will herm out under even the smallest stress.. I tried many stress tests on shanti's "shit" some phenos failed while many were impossiple to fuck up. The clone I ended up sts-ing was tuff she would not reverse hardly at all. Of the few seeds I got all of them were top notch and an excellent way to max-out the potential of my outside holes. Sure fems are not a perfect thing but they have there place, and I'm happy to use and make them.

krk

These are Bubblegum x Mighty Durban

Mighty Durban S1

 

[hempy]

Thanks Neville i think the way you use it as a tool is justified and useful see Donald i did read that post I just feel very strongly about this and in all honesty mate if i am right or wrong in my vues i feel that people that are pushing s1 seeds have done little to no testing of there seed yet when any person brings up any opposition or asks questions they the supporters of fem seeds attack them.

I did lots of research on this found no scientific research or real testing done by any one selling these fem cannabis seeds other than dutch passion.

So i sed to my self do it your self see the differences and i posted it.


This is a sample of the research i have read and found.


Plant Hormones: Roles

Auxins Involved in differentiation of vascular tissue, control cellular elongation, prevention of abscission, involved in apical dominance and various tropisms, stimulate the release of ethylene, enhance fruit development

Cytokinins Affect cell division, delay senescence, activate dormant buds

Gibberellins Initiate mobilization of storage materials in seeds during germination, cause elongation of stems, stimulate bolting in biennials, stimulate pollen tube growth

Abscisic Acid Maintains dormancy in seeds and buds, stimulates the closing of stomata

Ethylene Causes ripening of climacteric fruits, promotes abscission, causes formation of aerenchyma tissue in submerged stems, determines sex in cucurbits

Jasmonates Involved in response to environmental stresses, control germination of seeds

Brassinolides Promote of elongation, stimulate flowering, promote cell division, can affect tropic curvature

Salicylic Acid Activates genes involved with plant's defense mechanisms



Hormones, Plant

Plant hormones are chemical messengers that are produced in one part of the plant and have a physiological effect on a target tissue that may be distant from the site of production. When hormones reach the target tissue they can: (1) have a direct effect on the target tissue causing a rapid metabolic response; (2) involve the use of a second messenger within target cells; and/or (3) affect transcription of nuclear deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA)

DNA

A nucleic acid that carries the genetic information in the cell and is capable of self-replication and synthesis of RNA. DNA consists of two long chains of nucleotides twisted into a double helix and joined by hydrogen bonds between the complementary bases adenine and thymine or cytosine and guanine. The sequence of nucleotides determines individual hereditary characteristics.


First Discovery of the Female Sex Hormone Progesterone in a Plant

(Feb. 7, 2010) — In a finding that overturns conventional wisdom, scientists are reporting the first discovery of the female sex hormone progesterone in a plant. Until now, scientists thought that only animals could make progesterone. A steroid hormone secreted by the ovaries, progesterone prepares the uterus for pregnancy and maintains pregnancy. A synthetic version, progestin, is used in birth control pills and other medications.

The discovery is reported in the American Chemical Society's Journal of Natural Products.

"The significance of the unequivocal identification of progesterone cannot be overstated," the article by Guido F. Pauli and colleagues, states. "While the biological role of progesterone has been extensively studied in mammals, the reason for its presence in plants is less apparent." They speculate that the hormone, like other steroid hormones, might be an ancient bioregulator that evolved billions of years ago, before the appearance of modern plants and animals. The new discovery may change scientific understanding of the evolution and function of progesterone in living things.



Scientists previously identified progesterone-like substances in plants and speculated that the hormone itself could exist in plants. But researchers had not found the actual hormone in plants until now. Pauli and colleagues used two powerful laboratory techniques, nuclear magnetic resonance and mass spectroscopy, to detect progesterone in leaves of the Common Walnut, or English Walnut, tree. They also identified five new progesterone-related steroids in a plant belonging to the buttercup family.


It looks to me that Science don't seam to know as much as some seam to think about plants.

Will keep reading researching.

And yes i still think fem seeds should be made sterile you can say what ever you like in support for fem seeds but reality is what research has been done to support if any positives that fem seeds give.



Sex Involved In Plant Defense Why do some plants defend themselves from insect attacks better than others? New evidence shows that the difference might be due to whether they're getting any plant love.....
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0713201448.htm


Plants Spice Up Their Sex Life With Defensins— Since the beginning, plants and animals have deployed various mechanisms to fight pathogens. Proteins have always played an important part in this armoury, and a broad variety of defensin proteins have become part of the immune system of plants, insects and other animals except mammals. Now scientists from Regensburg discovered that those proteins also play a role in the "sex life" during the fertilization process of plants.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0601171711.htm

Value of Sexual Reproduction Versus Asexual Reproduction
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0121161238.htm


Effects of Gibberellic Acid on Primary Terpenoids and Δ9-Tetrahydrocannabinol in Cannabis sativa at Flowering Stage

Plants synthesize an astonishing diversity of isoprenoids, some of which play essential roles in photosynthesis, respiration, and the regulation of growth and development. Two independent pathways for the biosynthesis of isoprenoid precursors coexist within the plant cell: the cytosolic mevalonic acid (MVA) pathway and the plastidial methylerythritol phosphate (MEP) pathway. However, little is known about the effects of plant hormones on the regulation of these pathways. In the present study we investigated the effect of gibberellic acid (GA3) on changes in the amounts of many produced terpenoids and the activity of the key enzymes, 1-deoxy-D-xylulose 5-phosphate synthase (DXS) and 3-hydroxy-3-methylglutaryl coenzyme A reductase (HMGR), in these pathways. Our results showed GA3 caused a decrease in DXS activity in both sexes that it was accompanied by a decrease in chlorophylls, carotenoids and Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) contents and an increase in α-tocopherol content. The treated plants with GA3 showed an increase in HMGR activity. This increase in HMGR activity was followed by accumulation of stigmasterol and β-sitosterol in male and female plants and campestrol in male plants. The pattern of the changes in the amounts of sterols was exactly similar to the changes in the HMGR activity. These data suggest that GA3 can probably influence the MEP and MVA pathways oppositely, with stimulatory and inhibitory effects on the produced primary terpenoids in MVA and DXS pathways, respectively.


Enzyme Helps Males Make Up For Their X Chromosome Shortage

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/05/080529121210.htm

Tackling the diversity of sex determination
http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/6/1/7.full


Plant Biologists Discover Gene That Switches On 'Essence Of Male'
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0319224538.htm


DNA Replication and Causes of Mutation
http://www.nature.com/scitable/topic...f-mutation-409

Development of the male gametophyte
http://www-ijpb.versailles.inra.fr/e.../dgm/index.htm

 

[Nevil]

Thanks for your response krk.
Clearly fems are useful to some people in certain circumstances. I'm not calling for a ban, I merely wish to point out some of the possible consequences. A good case in point is Skunk #1. I strongly suspect that at some point the seed used was the result of a selfed plant. Having gone through this genetic bottleneck, Sk1 remains the most prone to hermaphroditic tendencies. If you got hermaphrodites from "shit", it's because there is Skunk in it's pedigree. As a seed breeder, I was always on the lookout for Skunks going Hermaphrodite. Plant sexuality is still poorly understood (at least by me) and there are a number of triggers for this often latent tendency.
But you can't tell me that everyone that buys fem seed is going to stress test it as a professional would before passing the genetics on. People who fear that the gene pool may become polluted with excess hermaphrodites are not delusional.
At Sensi, I saw a large grow room full of Hemp. All hermaphrodites, about 50% male and 50% female on one plant. It'd make you want to puke.
At the same time, I'm against closed minds. Please keep us posted.

 

[b0b_b1tch1n]

lol someone and his g/f Jes are prolly back tracking now


the original post in this thread looks like a VERY OLD copy n paste from other forums

i thank god we have someone like nevil to come offer an unbiasd professional point of view


p.s. all of my fem's have grown just as well as the original plants so im not sure your tests are acurate hempy

im still not fond of fems though

 

[hempy]

lol someone and his g/f Jes are prolly back tracking now


the original post in this thread looks like a VERY OLD copy n paste from other forums

i thank god we have someone like nevil to come offer an unbiasd professional point of view


p.s. all of my fem's have grown just as well as the original plants so im not sure your tests are acurate hempy

I asked for my account at icmag to be deleted today trust me i am not far from doing the same here its people like you that makes people like me log out and for good but its people like shanti and neville that keep me here.

I think i post for my self and jesse him self i posted pictures and i believe i made a valid argument i have not acted like a child but posts like yours makes me think it is pointless and a wasted energy to bother trying to point out what others all ready know to be a bad thing.

As for the links and posts i added they are from my posts i found researching the fem topic so i did not use any other persons quotes or work found.

Nothing but the post above with links was from any other posts i made they are new and brought to you by hempy INC international rights for the freedom and rights and wealth-fair of cannabis and its species call it a watch dog to control morons field by greed if you like i am the CEO lol.

 

[JessE]

lol someone and his g/f Jes are prolly back tracking now

Bob,
Ive found it interesting you were so smitten with Bonbolos post, supporting the feminized seed process, yet yourself had already posted on the detriments of your own feminized seed experience. Im not sure if you know if you're coming or going mate lol.

Originally Posted by b0b_b1tch1n
p.s. all of my fem's have grown just as well as the original plants so im not sure your tests are acurate hempy

i had some very very poor fem ww seeds , the plants were no better then hemp

http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=57314

Hmmm...

the original post in this thread looks like a VERY OLD copy n paste from other forums

Im willing to bet you cant source these claims that hempys original post was supposidly copied from another forum, care to share? If not, please quit embarrassing yourself with troll behavior.