Limited Mango Haze inbred generation
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MarijuanaPiranha
New member
Nice article on breeding, some real nice tidbits there. Thanks Batman and Mark!
Shanti mentioned that the description had some misleading details.
from:
http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/4-talk-shantibaba-mrnice/9988-hey-shanti-what-do-you-think.html
After this thread was finished, I was still confused about he called the male 5hz122. I messaged him and he confirmed that there was a male selection from the same genetic generation as the female 5hz122. So from my understanding, there is no skunk in nevilles haze x mango. If you were into %'s, it would be 62.5% haze, 37.5 NL.
-mp
Shanti mentioned that the description had some misleading details.
from:
http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/4-talk-shantibaba-mrnice/9988-hey-shanti-what-do-you-think.html
After this thread was finished, I was still confused about he called the male 5hz122. I messaged him and he confirmed that there was a male selection from the same genetic generation as the female 5hz122. So from my understanding, there is no skunk in nevilles haze x mango. If you were into %'s, it would be 62.5% haze, 37.5 NL.
-mp
Thanks MP, seems strange how skunk got mixed up into the description in the first place but I guess having so many different strains with NL SK and Haze in them makes it easy to get things around the wrong way sometimes.
I've re-read the quote above a few times and no matter which way I look at it the two phrases in bold seem to contradict each other. It seems to suggest 5HzC122 isn't the mother of MH but another 5HzC mango out of the original batch of seed planted in 2001. I'd always assumed it was 122 and older posts seem to support this. It seems MH has a different father than the original test seed offering but I can't find anything about a change in the mothers and doubt this as a possibility. Can anyone else make better sense of it? The only way I can kind of make sense of it is that he's talking about the male side only when he says "it came out of an old batch of seed selected by me in 2001" but that's not the way it reads.
I hope I'm not getting too "Big Herb" on everyone!
I've re-read the quote above a few times and no matter which way I look at it the two phrases in bold seem to contradict each other. It seems to suggest 5HzC122 isn't the mother of MH but another 5HzC mango out of the original batch of seed planted in 2001. I'd always assumed it was 122 and older posts seem to support this. It seems MH has a different father than the original test seed offering but I can't find anything about a change in the mothers and doubt this as a possibility. Can anyone else make better sense of it? The only way I can kind of make sense of it is that he's talking about the male side only when he says "it came out of an old batch of seed selected by me in 2001" but that's not the way it reads.
You're right MP, it would be much less confusing if it was given a different number - there should only be one 5HzC#122 and that's female. A little bit like someone else suggested of the new version of NL5 - it would have been less confusing to name it NL5.1 or something along those lines.
I hope I'm not getting too "Big Herb" on everyone!
MarijuanaPiranha
New member
Hi Mr.F,
I think this is saying that the only plants involved in NVM are NH and and 5Hz. Which wouldn't include skunk:
I can see where that quote would allude to 2 female selections being made. IDK about that
-mp
MarijuanaPiranha
New member
I think the listing was wrong, that's all. I don't think Shanti actually wrote the descriptions. Atleast they don't read like his writings.
Anecdotally, my nvm doesn't seem to have any sk characteristics. I can immediately tell my "nightime" jar from my nvm jar by the skunk smell coming from my nightime jar. The nvm seems to have a sweet fuel like smell.
I was looking at gert lushes beautiful mhxnh buds and they had better bud structure than mine. ---I think-- his were an aftermarket cross between a mango haze and nevilles haze, not Shanti's offering.
Maybe that extra skunk helped bulk the buds a little.
-mp
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Betterhaff
New member
Here Mango Mango
Whew, this discussion just keeps making heads spin. I think part of the problem is the use of “Mango” in descriptions of the plants involved. The way I see it there is “Mango” which is NL5/C and there is “Mango Haze” which is a hybrid using NL5/C Mango as a mother. I think a lot of times the nomenclature gets used rather loosely, even when Shanti is trying to explain lineages.
You know he has a female “Mango” NL5/C, I guess the real question is does the original NL5/C122 still exist? I haven’t seen or heard anything to the contrary. He said he selected a male NL5/C with Mango characteristics from seeds popped in 2001 (according to that post it sounds like he selected both a male and a female). And supposedly those seeds were from the same batch that the NL5/C122 (and NL5/C1) were selected from originally (by Nevil).
He must also have a selected “Mango Haze” mother, which would be what he uses in Angel Heart and Angel’s Breathe.
As far as the strain descriptions, there is Mango Widow and Neville’s Haze Mango of which are confusing. The actually lineages described would indicate that Mango Haze was used because of the Skunk, but is that really the case. I think he was trying to say in his posts, at least for the NHM, that an NL/5 was used as the father. Just my thoughts.
I wonder if he still has any of those original NL5/C beans left. You never know, there may even be more “Mangos”.
Whew, this discussion just keeps making heads spin. I think part of the problem is the use of “Mango” in descriptions of the plants involved. The way I see it there is “Mango” which is NL5/C and there is “Mango Haze” which is a hybrid using NL5/C Mango as a mother. I think a lot of times the nomenclature gets used rather loosely, even when Shanti is trying to explain lineages.
You know he has a female “Mango” NL5/C, I guess the real question is does the original NL5/C122 still exist? I haven’t seen or heard anything to the contrary. He said he selected a male NL5/C with Mango characteristics from seeds popped in 2001 (according to that post it sounds like he selected both a male and a female). And supposedly those seeds were from the same batch that the NL5/C122 (and NL5/C1) were selected from originally (by Nevil).
He must also have a selected “Mango Haze” mother, which would be what he uses in Angel Heart and Angel’s Breathe.
As far as the strain descriptions, there is Mango Widow and Neville’s Haze Mango of which are confusing. The actually lineages described would indicate that Mango Haze was used because of the Skunk, but is that really the case. I think he was trying to say in his posts, at least for the NHM, that an NL/5 was used as the father. Just my thoughts.
I wonder if he still has any of those original NL5/C beans left. You never know, there may even be more “Mangos”.
Piff Rhys Jones
Banned
Dunno if I've missed something but this is how I interpret it:
Shanti is talking about a male and female Mango Haze ie a selected male and female MH f1 that were selected from a batch of MH f1s in 2001.
The comments are ambiguous as he refers to "it" coming out of an old batch of seed, when he should have said the selected MH f1s came from an old batch of seed.
Peace
Shanti is talking about a male and female Mango Haze ie a selected male and female MH f1 that were selected from a batch of MH f1s in 2001.
The comments are ambiguous as he refers to "it" coming out of an old batch of seed, when he should have said the selected MH f1s came from an old batch of seed.
Peace
Betterhaff
New member
You may be right Piff but this is what's confusing.
He refers to the 122 as the MH female when actually shouldn't it be referred to as the MH mother or "Mango" female.
He refers to the 122 as the MH female when actually shouldn't it be referred to as the MH mother or "Mango" female.
Billy Liar
Member
I thought the parents of SSH and mh were f4.
Therefore if the f4 generation of 5c spawned plants worthy of the name 5hz122 then you have your male and female.
I read it that SB worked the 5c122 line and N worked the 5c1 line to end up with the parents of MH and SSH respectively.
Just my interpretation.
Peace
BL
Therefore if the f4 generation of 5c spawned plants worthy of the name 5hz122 then you have your male and female.
I read it that SB worked the 5c122 line and N worked the 5c1 line to end up with the parents of MH and SSH respectively.
Just my interpretation.
Peace
BL
Hi Billy Liar, you've raised some interesting points.
By this do you mean in the case of SSH, the 5HzC is inbred to F4 and the SkHzC inbred to F4 then crossed, or the initial F1 cross has been inbred and the final mating is F4 x F4 - i.e. F5 seed? Just thinking out loud but if what you're saying is true it is probably more likely that Shanti has used the same 'formula' posted previously of brother/sister mating then backcrossing to the P1's as used with White/Black Widow, G13/SK, and others.
I would tend to disagree with this - the label 5HzC122 is a single plant. A more appropriate name would be something like "The Mango Line" and the associated description and pedigree would explain the ancestry and breeding behind it.
Any chance you can post a link to where you read this? I don't know what Shanti has done with MH and SSH but the SSH when Nevil made it was an "F1" cross - i.e. no inbreeding involved.
JessE
New member
Hi all,
Mango Haze is among the finest varieties available from seed in the industry today, and over the years is a subject which has been discussed extensively at the forum. Some of the differing parallels from the original discussions and now are the purposeful blending of confusing like terms from outside and related parties which were not previously used on a regular basis. Whether through attempts to capitalize on the success these varieties have enjoyed for their own benefit, or through nefarious agendas the discussions have evolved over the years to include information which is confusing to those with an unfamiliarity or inexperience with a culmination of history throughout time.
Some terms such as 5hz122, A5, C5 etc. have managed to work their way into the discussions over time, which share likeness to original terms and descriptions and throughout time have managed to seep into the collective consciousness of many readers who view these threads but who may not understand the parameters which set these individual terms apart. Thus, to a degree the confusion for some members is perfectly understandable, though through little fault of MNS which has always shared a great deal of information about their lines with the general public.
There exists a number of previously addressed bulletins on this and related varieties, below are two such examples detailing small insights into the topic which viewed in culmination with other posts, write-ups, articles etc. on the topic usually open up a new world of understanding on the topics at hand.
Example 1
Example 2
So many of the strains here at MNS have histories which have been previously expanded upon a great deal by Shanti and company and with some work will prove fruitful to those who posteur not enough information is available on variety x, y or z.
Mango Haze is among the finest varieties available from seed in the industry today, and over the years is a subject which has been discussed extensively at the forum. Some of the differing parallels from the original discussions and now are the purposeful blending of confusing like terms from outside and related parties which were not previously used on a regular basis. Whether through attempts to capitalize on the success these varieties have enjoyed for their own benefit, or through nefarious agendas the discussions have evolved over the years to include information which is confusing to those with an unfamiliarity or inexperience with a culmination of history throughout time.
Some terms such as 5hz122, A5, C5 etc. have managed to work their way into the discussions over time, which share likeness to original terms and descriptions and throughout time have managed to seep into the collective consciousness of many readers who view these threads but who may not understand the parameters which set these individual terms apart. Thus, to a degree the confusion for some members is perfectly understandable, though through little fault of MNS which has always shared a great deal of information about their lines with the general public.
There exists a number of previously addressed bulletins on this and related varieties, below are two such examples detailing small insights into the topic which viewed in culmination with other posts, write-ups, articles etc. on the topic usually open up a new world of understanding on the topics at hand.
Example 1
Example 2
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2387370&postcount=104
So many of the strains here at MNS have histories which have been previously expanded upon a great deal by Shanti and company and with some work will prove fruitful to those who posteur not enough information is available on variety x, y or z.
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HairyKushna
New member
so it looks like ssh and mango haze are not f1's?
Hi Jesse, you're right - I can see how a thread such as this one (and a lot of others) can be a little bit confusing and daunting for the newbie or general public. Hopefully this isn't enough to scare off prospective buyers; I think I can speak for everyone who's posted when I say that's certainly not the intention here. All of the favourable grow logs and praise for the seed line speaks for itself really, it's just that a small number of the more advanced growers and hobby breeders have inquiring minds that want to know some of the finer details.
I'm planning to create a new thread in the near future explaining why a small minority here are so interested in the pedigrees and why they matter. This should put things into perspective for those that are confused or wondering what all the fuss is about (and hopefully possibly inspire some to dabble in the fun of breeding).
As I've said before, the level of information given by MNS on their product is up there with the best and I would much rather SB be a little vague with some of the finer details than mislead people. For the most part the information is excellent and very much appreciated in addition to the fact that Shanti prefers to let the customer results speak for the lines as opposed to marketing hype.
And just for the record I have to stand corrected on the statement below:
The original seed release was in fact 'stabilized' as the F1 cross didn't produce enough high quality plants per seed pack quantity.
Correct - I'd always believed they were but in order to ensure a high ratio of excellent plants in a pack of seed some 'stabilization' was required.
Piff Rhys Jones
Banned
Hi Mark
Don't suppoae you have a quote confirming NH is not straight up (NL5xHazeA) x Haze C?
How was it stabalised? Assuming the father is Haze C, was the NL5 x Haze A mother inbred?
Peace
Don't suppoae you have a quote confirming NH is not straight up (NL5xHazeA) x Haze C?
How was it stabalised? Assuming the father is Haze C, was the NL5 x Haze A mother inbred?
Peace
Piff Rhys Jones
Banned
Im sure Nev confirmed the mother of SSH is (NL#5 x Haze C) f1 (not inbred) although I can't find the quote. My interpretation of the stabalisation was that he then mated this mother with many different (Skunk x Haze C) f1 males and tested the progency of each male before he found a male that mixed well.
Please correct me if I am wrong as I was always under the impression Haze C was only inbred for 1 gen to create SSH.
Peace
Sorry Piff I was referring to SSH.
This quote tends to suggest NH is a straight F1 cross without explicitly stating so.
That's my understanding too - the 'stabilizing' was done after the initial 'F1' cross.
MarijuanaPiranha
New member
Thanks for putting that up Jesse. I've read those quotes before, but I am seeing them differently now in the context of this thread.
I selected Mango Haze and Nev selected SSH...we then stabilized the strains over a series of breeding generations and SSH came out first . It took me a little longer to get the MH sorted but I feel the work put in was rewarded as everytime i grow it from a F1 seed I find something very close to the original.
It could read that there was inbred generations and/or backcrossing going on to stabilize it. Or it could simply mean it took alot of time find the right NL5HZ to cross with the right SKHZ, right? IDK
On your mango haze grow log Jesse, I think you grew the beta seeds, wasn't there a different male plant used on those than the current offering? It looked like you had a somewhat indica looking plant from those and some that went 17+ weeks.
http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/10842-post2.html
I was curious what was diiferent about the betas and what is offered today, then I saw this quote:
So, I answered my own question. But if all that was switched was the skhz male, then where is all the inbreeding or backcrossing at? On the nl5hz side? On the skhz side?
Thanks!
-mp
HairyKushna
New member
my interest in this topic stems from the FACT that some of the early released jack herer was legendary.
I had a single seed that made it to an adult stage, and it ended up being female.
and it was the one of the better plants ive ever seen, growing or a finished product.
i havent been able to grow out any of the current SSH,
and i didnt get to see the mango haze finish.
but from the few female mango haze i saw at halfway through flowering,
they were not as special as that single female jack herer i saw.
what is the difference between the old stuff that produced amazing results,
and the current offerings? is there any difference?
there are quotes that say that SSH and mango haze are f1's,
and there are quotes that say SSH and mango haze have been inbred.
a majority of the time it seems like true f1's are the best,
but i can certainly accept that putting in more work on a few generations
can help stabilize certain traits and provide a better end product.
so all that many of us want is to know what we are actually working with and buying,
(NL5 x haze C) x (skunk x haze C),
or is it
[(NL5 x haze C) x (skunk x haze C)] x [(NL5 x haze C) x (skunk x haze C)] x [(NL5 x haze C) x (skunk x haze C)] x [(NL5 x haze C) x (skunk x haze C)] ?
there is obviously a difference between the two.
I had a single seed that made it to an adult stage, and it ended up being female.
and it was the one of the better plants ive ever seen, growing or a finished product.
i havent been able to grow out any of the current SSH,
and i didnt get to see the mango haze finish.
but from the few female mango haze i saw at halfway through flowering,
they were not as special as that single female jack herer i saw.
what is the difference between the old stuff that produced amazing results,
and the current offerings? is there any difference?
there are quotes that say that SSH and mango haze are f1's,
and there are quotes that say SSH and mango haze have been inbred.
a majority of the time it seems like true f1's are the best,
but i can certainly accept that putting in more work on a few generations
can help stabilize certain traits and provide a better end product.
so all that many of us want is to know what we are actually working with and buying,
(NL5 x haze C) x (skunk x haze C),
or is it
[(NL5 x haze C) x (skunk x haze C)] x [(NL5 x haze C) x (skunk x haze C)] x [(NL5 x haze C) x (skunk x haze C)] x [(NL5 x haze C) x (skunk x haze C)] ?
there is obviously a difference between the two.
Piff Rhys Jones
Banned
Surely Shanti would have mentioned the inbreeding and working of both parent lines if SSH was not a straight up cross of NL5HzC x SkunkHzC?
I think the mention of "stabilisation" is what has caused the confusion. Hopefully Shanti will clarify.
Peace
Piff Rhys Jones
Banned
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