Limited Mango Haze inbred generation

[Mr Fecund]

wasnt hiding things batman i said what i meant.

look back on the previous pages and you can see we are guessing the lineage of yet another strain by shanti. i was pointing out that shanti can easily lay to rest all of these concerns and rumors around his seed but chooses not to.

 

[Fated]

names will not give us pheno-type.

as long as he tells us what he selected for we have all the information we need to observe the progeny for those traits, right?

that will give us some insight into genotype, no?

 

[cannatari]

It's MHxMH, y'all.

By calling it "F2" he would be implying that the selection is intended for subsequent generations.

Peace.

 

[Mark]

does anyone realize that shanti can tell us the exact lineage but chooses not to?

Yes, I think most people here realize that but it's just the way Shanti chooses to operate. Before Nevil left, he wanted to put together an accurate pedigree database of all of the MNS offerings but Shanti didn't want that. He seems to prefer to give you a hint of the lineage but leave the rest open to speculation. It's his prerogative I guess.

I share your frustrations but it is what it is.

 

[JessE]

Yes, I think most people here realize that but it's just the way Shanti chooses to operate. Before Nevil left, he wanted to put together an accurate pedigree database of all of the MNS offerings but Shanti didn't want that. He seems to prefer to give you a hint of the lineage but leave the rest open to speculation. It's his prerogative I guess.

I share your frustrations but it is what it is.

Hi all,
Always interesting to read where these kinds of discussions go, though ultimately all information pertaining to MNS strains originates from Nevils own writing and pedigree information from the '80s and '90s anyway and are as true now as they were then in that regard.

The idea was put forth sometime ago to do pedigree analysis for all MNS related varieties and has been completed as such by Shanti who still has the original notes written by Nev decades ago now. Some confusion has surfaced since then, perhaps characteristically designed in that light since Nevils return, where before info was not in doubt, however with the original notes still being in MNS's possession we can all rest assured whats left of the true, original data is still here to be referenced and assimilated. All descriptions now were written up some time ago and are based on the original, sourced material provided from the strains original descriptions and breeding archetype.

So while new definitions have been added to previously defined varieties, one has to understand as MNS and Nevil have moved on in differing avenues of pursuit the need for individuality apart from another has expressed itself in the form of re-inventing the wheel. All pedigree analysis have been completed and updated by MNS and will be made available as time allows.

 

[Mark]

That's great news Jesse, I'm glad Shanti has had a change of heart. It might not mean much to some but a lot of people will be glad to see this and it should be the end of all of the speculation and bickering over lineages.

I'm assuming the new pedigree information will include all of the ancestry Shanti has knowledge of. For example, the ASH pedigree will contain which Afghan is used on each side, which Skunk, which Haze, and their ancestors where applicable. Something like this:



............................/ Haze C
........./ Afghan x Haze
......./.....................\ AfgT
ASH
.......\................................./ Skunk B23
..........\................/ Skunk A76
............\.........../.................\ Skunk B6
...............\ Afghan x Skunk
........................\................./ AfgT
...........................\ Afghan 19
........................................\ AfgS

(Excuse my poor attempt at a pedigree!)

This tells me so much more than (Afghan x Skunk) x (Afghan x Haze) which tends to suggest it is a cross with the same female Afghan on both sides (which could well be the case) but it also leaves it open to being a more complex ancestry like the pedigree above.

It's not so much what the notation is so long as we know whether the same plant has been used to father two different strains or if they are brothers, from different lines, etc.

I understand there will be some missing information somewhere along the lines but breeders notes would be all we could expect in this case. E.g. Father of unknown lineage - heavy yielding Afghan with fruity undertones out of unlabelled seedstock from Nevil circa 93.

Will the new information be presented in a similar fashion to the current Strain Base format or will it be more of a searchable database format similar to what Nevil was campaigning for?

It would be great if you could shed some light but otherwise we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[JessE]

That's great news Jesse, I'm glad Shanti has had a change of heart.

Hi Mark,
I am unsure if Shanti ever objected to such an idea, in fact I believe this was on the agenda some time ago but with Nevils return the re conceptualization of some of the pedigree information ultimately put the breaks on any forward bearing direction in that regard until time allows but has all ultimately come to fruition as each party moves forward with their own individualized visions.

MNS has for years freely released more information about their lines than a great majority of companies in the industry, so any suggestions MNS objects to the sharing of information seems questionable if you've been around long enough to see the paradigm in which most companies operate under.

I believe the search feature can yield an enormous amount of information for those taking the time to use it properly, as more than once the suggestion has been made information is not available only to surface in previous post from older threads. So its not always a lack of information, but an inability to search for it in many cases which all too often gets expressed in similar forms to claims made recently in this thread of MNS's unwillingness to share information etc.

One of the most recent attempts at formulated pedigree analysis from LeMarcel can be found below and was given the nod of approval to be posted by Shanti himself. So a quick pm to Shanti usually yields answers to most any questions and a great deal of strain info is already available to those willing to look through various grow threads and related subject matter to discover what is they seek.

http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/5-strain-base/2867-family-tree-mns-strains.html

With regards to Ash, below are some quotes from Shanti along those lines which should be more than enough to help some of you begin the journey of tracking down whatever info you need. For example,with Ash having origins in Ortega one can then search for info on Ortega and begin to put the pieces together of which Afghan was used etc.

Originally Posted by shantibaba
Hi All

nice plants and glad to see you got the thread up Banana....well done. This hybrid is finished and seems to have stirred up the winds while i have been away with alot of different growers world wide. Between it and ASH, and Af/Haze there seems to be too much of a coincidence for it not to be true. These three seem to be popular across the board with most medical users and growers. I understand that the afghan base for this was from the family of progeny originating from an old ortega member that Nev last work on over a decade ago. Considering I was going through alot of the old school skunks and NL the most impressive all round plant came in the afghan gene stock. Now a few years down the track I see it gains momentum without any special push from any one set of growers/users...meaning it seems to be worthy of its ability to please and do its job well. So expect a lot of these plants around near you sooner than later as this is the biggest amount of seed stock sold in the passed 4 months, then comes SSH, CM, and so forth....

Just thought to share some views I see coming up with the reading i am doing only on this site via pm and threads...

Wishing you all the best and great to see things going well in certain camps....Sb

https://www.mrnice.nl/forum/ash/2581-afghan-x-skunk-2.html#post46671

Ortega was originally made a little different from Nevil when he was doing his Seedbank thing with Sensi...Shantibaba made a selection from an old school set of seeds that originated from NL#1 and NL#5...from mid 80s. It is expected to keep a good Christmas tree structure in growth and flowers in 6-8 weeks, giving strong fruity, deep berry flavors . It is an excellent all round effect and acts for many like a night medicine. Aids sleep disorders well and muscular conditions...a must try.

http://www.mrnice.nl/dhtml/strains.php?id=60

It can be fun to pursue this kind of challenge, no question about it. Part of the fun is the quest itself, so I encourage everyone to look through the archives when inquiring about curiosities such as Ash, Ortega, Mango etc. A number of varieties and information surrounding them can be uncovered with the time put in to seek ones answers.

The breeding information surrounding Mango Haze in particular has been discussed quite a bit at the forum, with an inbred Mango haze line not really being too much of a mystery if you look at how this has been accomplished. Some quick deductions ultimately yields some pretty detailed information about the line if you're familiar with the basics behind the line which is widely available in various threads here at the forum and elsewhere.

 

[Batman]

hello fellows,

there is something i did not understand, its the breeding story of the 5Hz122 male who is the father in the nevils mango line, is this a sibling of the 5Hz122 female ? (5Hz122 female = the mother of the mango haze)

 

[Fated]

phenotypes and percentages.

information on the phenotypes (what characteristics were selected for?) and their percentages - IMHO - is Way More Valuable than names and numbers.

e.g. this plant was selected to have this flowering period, this bud structure, this flavor, this effect, mold resistance, pest resistance, cold resistance, And we find that trait in roughly ?X? % of the offspring is the type of information that is desired.

i personally dont care what you call them.

sorry if i'm ruffling feathers.

 

[Batman]

you are right fated, its all about phenotype expression

 

[MarijuanaPiranha]

hello fellows,

there is something i did not understand, its the breeding story of the 5Hz122 male who is the father in the nevils mango line, is this a sibling of the 5Hz122 female ? (5Hz122 female = the mother of the mango haze)

Hey Batman, I asked Shanti to clarify why he called the male side 5Hz122, he said that the "mango" 5Hz male was from the same genetic generation as the 122 female. So yeah they would be siblings.

My guess at the inbred generation seeds would be an earlier flowering MH f1 male(s) bred back to the 5Hz122 mother.

peace,
-mp

 

[Mark]

I am unsure if Shanti ever objected to such an idea

Yeah, you're right - that comment wasn't based on any explicit statement from Shanti, just the lack of finer details over the years. This has unfortunately resulted in a lot of wasted discussion and bickering that should be ended with these forthcoming updates so I think it's a great thing.

MNS has been leading the way already in this area when compared with other seed companies as you've said. I believe this has certainly been a contributing factor to the popularity of the company. Unfortunately I think it's a case where you give people an inch and they want a mile . Personally, I would love to know if the 'Afghan' used in Strain X is the same as strains A, B, and C because they all had a particular aspect to the plants structure that I'm looking for. I might be more inclined to buy strain X because the other 3 strains that used the exact same Afghan female were dominant for the structure I like.

I've purchased seed predominantly from MNS over the years mostly due to the reasons you've suggested. I agree that Shanti has the right to be as open or vague as he deems appropriate but that has no bearing on inquiring minds that want to know certain details - we're still going to want to know! I use the search feature often but the information I'm looking for just isn't here yet.

Le Marcel's chart was very good and commendable but it had some anomalies and didn't have the differentiation between the different Skunks, Afghan's, etc used. Looking at the thread though - it's clear to see that something along the same lines from Shanti would be appreciated a lot by many of the members.

I'm not demanding it or perpetuating the idea that MNS have some kind of obligation to provide what I (and others) are interested in but I'd really like it.

 

[Mark]

hello fellows,

there is something i did not understand, its the breeding story of the 5Hz122 male who is the father in the nevils mango line, is this a sibling of the 5Hz122 female ? (5Hz122 female = the mother of the mango haze)

Hi Batman, the mention of 5Hz122 in that thread confused me also but as MarijuanaPiranha says, Shanti confirmed it's a male 5Hz that had similar mango characters to the 5Hz122 female.

 

[Mark]

information on the phenotypes (what characteristics were selected for?) and their percentages - IMHO - is Way More Valuable than names and numbers.

e.g. this plant was selected to have this flowering period, this bud structure, this flavor, this effect, mold resistance, pest resistance, cold resistance, And we find that trait in roughly ?X? % of the offspring is the type of information that is desired.

i personally dont care what you call them.

They're good suggestions Fated - you can post them in the website update suggestion box thread if you're interested.

My guess at the inbred generation seeds would be an earlier flowering MH f1 male(s) bred back to the 5Hz122 mother.

That's what I first thought too MarijuanaPiranha but if the read the words from Shanti again - he says it's a MH female not 5Hz or Mango that the F1 male is crossed to. That would tend to suggest an F2 but in Shanti's description he states that tall Haze plants with good yields are to be expected. That seems like he's expecting more uniformity than you'd expect from MH F2's. Perhaps he's inbred MH and this is the result of F3 back to the F1 father similar to the article he wrote about how he bred white widow.

 

[Batman]

hello mark, marijuanapiranha, thanks for the help

mark, you response to marijuanapiranha is interesting, it reminds me the pic of a page of the big book of buds 1 i have posted years ago. i took another pic as i lost the previous, its worth to take a look at.

P1 x P2 = F1
F1 x F1 = F2
F2 x P2 = F3
P1 x F3 = F4 SHOULD BE A STABLE BREED PRODUCING UNIFORM RESULTS

F4 x F4 = F5 TESTED FOR UNIFORMITY

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
OR ANOTHER WAY

P1 x P2 = F1
F1 x F1 = F2
F2 x F2 = F3
F3 x F3 = F4 SHOULD BE A STABLE BREED PRODUCING UNIFORM RESULTS

F4 x P2 = BACKCROSS TESTED FOR UNIFORMITY

~~~

 

[Mark]

Yeah Batman, that pretty much sums up what I was thinking.

I'm pretty sure there was an article I got the white widow/black widow reference from but here's a post by Kashrocks quoting a Shanti post from the old CW site that I may have been confused with.

I wish Kashrocks was still around - he was a wealth of knowledge and had a huge archive of little gems like that one.

 

[Batman]

hello mark i remember this post about black widow and its reminds me the paper chimera wrote about backcrossing, specially backcrossing to incorporate a recessive trait, an alternation of backcross and interbreed in order to show the recessive condition.
http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/6-breeders-support-information/8417-chimera-myth-cubing-backcrossing.html

 

[Mr Fecund]

i think a pedigree chart, as full and accurate as shanti can provide may spark a renewed expression of interest in the mns lines.

to me mango haze inbreed looks like a selected mango haze mother crossed to a 'mango' NL5xHC, brother of the mother of mango haze. rather not guess tho..

also i wouldnt mind hearing the story behind the different 'mangos' mns possess. i was told that nevil selected the original 122 mango, then shanti goes on to say that he selected the male and female 122 sides from old nevil seeds. this obviously implies 2 female mango NL5HC are being used in the mns camp.

 

[Mark]

hello mark i remember this post about black widow and its reminds me the paper chimera wrote about backcrossing, specially backcrossing to incorporate a recessive trait, an alternation of backcross and interbreed in order to show the recessive condition.[/URL]

Thanks for posting that Batman. It took a while but I enjoyed reading that thread again. I used to enjoy a lot of the breeding discussion that went on here in the past and I miss it. It's a pity Shanti doesn't join in on those threads as it would be interesting to hear his take on things when it comes to breeding techniques and his experience.

 

[Mark]

to me mango haze inbreed looks like a selected mango haze mother crossed to a 'mango' NL5xHC, brother of the mother of mango haze. rather not guess tho..

Good point Mr Fecund - I hadn't thought about that angle and you could well be right.

also i wouldnt mind hearing the story behind the different 'mangos' mns possess. i was told that nevil selected the original 122 mango, then shanti goes on to say that he selected the male and female 122 sides from old nevil seeds. this obviously implies 2 female mango NL5HC are being used in the mns camp.

I wouldn't mind hearing a bit more about the mangos too. I highly doubt that there are two different 5HzC122's and I know Nevil said he selected #1 and #122 from all of the 5HzC plantings as the best 2. Nevil liked #1 a little better and Shanti preferred #122 so maybe Shanti was just talking about the fact that he selected that one to work with??

I'm still wondering about the 'mango' in the NH x mango as in one thread I got the impression Shanti was making it sound like it's a male 5HzC but in the strain description he refers to leaning toward the NL5 or Skunk side. There's no skunk in the NH so presumably it must be in the mango. N.H.S is 5HzC122 x Skunk so I thought he'd used that in the cross when I first found out it wasn't MH. It will be great when he updates the site with the pedigree information Jesse was talking about the other day - then we'll all know for sure.

The combination of these two plants awakens the appetite for even the most moderate user/grower of sativa based hybrids. The genetics making up this complex hybrid combine the two Haze males utilized by MNS. This seed is basically comprised of 12.5% skunk, 25% NL5, and 12.5%Haze A male, 50% Haze C male. The expected flowering time will vary considerably depending upon the chosen phenotype. Generally, it should be between 10-14 weeks with the possibility of slightly earlier if getting something towards the NL5 or Skunk side. Anything that goes beyond the 14 week marker in flowering is really not interesting as it becomes a difficult chore for a relatively low return. This plant will need to grow extensively, so it is essential to 12/12 (possibly even 10/14) light to night ratio, to force the onset of flowering. It is recommended to ensure the night time is very dark, as this will help force the plant to flower without compromise. It is very difficult to give an estimated yield here but one should be able to get an average of 450-500 grams per square meter. One might need to take the height of the growing area into consideration as this plant has the ability to grow for it. The aromas and taste of the finished product will be the most wonderful surprise for the growers and their hard work: it will be nothing less than superb. The effects will be cerebral and possibly a bit trippy so use the medicine well. This seed can be grown both indoors and outdoors but will need space and it will be hard to imagine it as a sea of green plant due to its sativa roots. It has the potential for a holy grail…can you find it?