F1/F2 seeds

  • Thread starter Thread starter barletta
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Regarding F1s vs F2s ,
F2 will never be the same as the F1s.This doesn't mean much though , you can do great breeding and find very good plants in F2 population.
As far as differences..
If you cross say an Afghan to a Haze in the first , F1 generation you can get a good variation of Afghani expressive plants but you also get Haze expressive plants and plants that are somewhere in between genetically and express traits from both sides . You will basically end up having all the possible variations if you grow a large enough population. But gene dominance plays a role here and some plants pass their genes and they are expressed more than the other parent's , these plants are the ones called the dominant parent , but generally you will get both extremes in the F1s and also 'in betweens' .Now depending on the work thats been done with the strain from the breeder ( with the parents ) , you will end up with a number of 'phenos' or more correctly , groups of (similar) genotypes with similar phenotypic expressions. The breeder's goal is to find the right parents to make the F1s , that when combined they give the best possible results and carry the desired traits and qualities .

Usually this also includes stability among other qualities . In simple words ..the task of the breeder is to get as many 'keepers' in this F1 population as possible. So that the grower gets to taste the plant that the breeder had in mind with all the desired traits and without sorting through too many plants .
Now if you go and make F2 seed from those F1 AfHz plants, the F2 seed you're making is 'AfHz x AfHz' seed. The variation now will be greater and you will see many differences but usually almost none now will be exactly the same as the F1s.This is the usual case , but not always , ie breeding with some ibl/landrace etc etc. The reason you will see such variation in the second gen (f2) is the natures' first reaction / attempt to avoid inbreeding probs by throwing out all possibles. This ensures that even if the population is remote there will be enough variation to keep the strain strong over time . After time if no fresh blood is introduced inbred depression will show and the vigor will decrease as well as the resistance to health/pest probs.

This is cause all are now 'AfHz x AfHz' and not 'Af x Hz' like the F1s (where the parents are completely different lines not 'the same'). Different genetic make up, but could say quite similar still. They wont be exactly the same as the F1s but one can find plants , equally good or even 'better' (but more selection is needed) which is subjective and depends on what one looks for in a plant as different people breed differently towards other traits and other qualities.

The good thing with F2s is that they come from the good selected parent (F1) so there is some sort of quality control already. You can make hell lots of them and sort through , taking your time and selecting from large groups.You can breed towards selected/desired traits and go on to f3s f4s or do other type of breeding work , ie to avoid inbred depression problems , vigor loss , or stabilize etc etc etc The bad thing is they usually are not what you look for but they are a good start for breeding The other disadvantage is that the possibilities to find the intended pheno that the breeder had in mind , and the chances to find something that is similar to one of the F1's parents are now less. The F1s are 'Af x Hz' so its easy to find an extreme , say Afghan expression but with F2s its now 'AfHz x AfHz' so you need to be more 'lucky' to land on a Afghan plant .This is cause now you need to find a plant that has Afghan dominant expression from both the parents , the AfHz male and AfHz female , so you basically need more plants to find it compared to the F1s which are a direct Af x Hz cross and all you need is Afghan dominance from only the one side to get the desired Afghan dominant plant .
 
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Thank you L. :) Very well written using the Af/Hz example!! I will have plenty of seed/genetic Q's coming.
 
SativaFan said:
Scorpion:

So what should I call the seeds and offspring from the result of my crossing a MNS f1 SSH male with MNS f1 females?

I have been calling them "2nd Generation SSH x SSH".

I know shitall about breeding and the proper terms, but from what I read, my seeds cannot be properly called "f2" seeds. The original parents not being landrace plants or true breeding. SSH being a "multihybrid".

As for the 2nd generation SSH plants I'm getting...They will have a lot of variation. I understand that. However, very good plants can result in 2nd gen plants....don't you agree? It's just that there is no predicting what those variations will be. Two/three of my current plants finishing are turning out to be very nice plants IMO.

I don't like calling things by the wrong name. I want the information on my thread to be accurate regarding the heritage of the plants I'm growing.

Thanks

SativaFan
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SSH f2 would be my guess
 
Scorpion:

Thanks, it just seems not quite right so I'll ask l33t the same question:

Is it proper to call my SSH x SSH plants f2's?

And that was a great summary of how the crosses work and what one might expect.

The fun part for me is I really don't care. I'm not much of an expert on the finer qualities of smoking weed. I just grow the best plants I can and hope for the best....kinda like Forrest Gump and the box of chocolates, "You just never know what you're gonna get". or something like that.

Maybe next grow I'll germ 3-4 dozen seeds, about all I can grow for any length of time...and select from them somehow. Actually I could start some more now. Maybe I will.

Thanks again

SativaFan
 
Hiya SF



Here is some info on the 'F' terminology:
''The parental generation is marked with a P. The first daughter generation is named F1 from Latin 'filia', which means 'daughter'. If two hybrids of the F1 generation are crossed, then the resulting generation is called F2, the following generation F3 and so on.''

Its common practice to use the ''F's'' for many breeding cases but in its strict sense it should be used only with ibl x ibl . In that case the first generation is F1 , second generation is F2 , third is F3 etc etc

Well SSH seeds we buy isn't really F1 in this strict sense/terminology. What we buy is NLHaze x SKHaze and the first generation is the Super Silver Haze. If you make seeds from two 1rst gen SSH plants the resulting seeds will be 'SSH x SSH' like you correctly call them. In practice its common practice to just call them F2's..

Here you can find a nice thread on Breeding.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=26677&page=1&pp=15&highlight=breeding+terminology
 
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L - Just curious, is that how ssh is made? f1(Nl/Hz) x f1(Sk/Hz)? Do you know if any of the MrN hazes (maybe eq x hz or la nina) are true f1's (ie: 2 individual lines worked to isolate specific traits, then combined)?
 
L33t said:
Hiya SF



Here is some info on the 'F' terminology:
''The parental generation is marked with a P. The first daughter generation is named F1 from Latin 'filia', which means 'daughter'. If two hybrids of the F1 generation are crossed, then the resulting generation is called F2, the following generation F3 and so on.''

Its common practice to use the ''F's'' for many breeding cases but in its strict sense it should be used only with ibl x ibl . In that case the first generation is F1 , second generation is F2 , third is F3 etc etc

Well SSH seeds we buy isn't really F1 in this strict sense/terminology. What we buy is NLHaze x SKHaze and the first generation is the Super Silver Haze. If you make seeds from two 1rst gen SSH plants the resulting seeds will be 'SSH x SSH' like you correctly call them. In practice its common practice to just call them F2's..

Here you can find a nice thread on Breeding.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=26677&page=1&pp=15&highlight=breeding+terminology
Click to expand...

l33t

Thanks very much.

I was pretty sure that was the way it worked(your explanation). I have done a lot of reading on breeding over on ICMAG and that thread you posted is one of them. I understand the basic process, but since I don't really have anywhere near the wherewithall to do any breeding...I haven't really "digested" it all yet. I find breeding very interesting though. As I said, I'm no connossuier of weed. I just grow it and see what comes :D

As for correct terminology...I was following a dialog over on ICMAG between two guys who obviously are breeders. They got into this long argument about what was "properly called an f2". That was why I asked the question.

Strictly speaking, an f2's parents must be "true" f1s...and none of these complex multi hybrids are "true" f1's...again, strictly speaking.

I do understand though for clarity, and to keep things simple, some people occasionally "misuse" the term f2, f3, fn ;)

Thanks

SativaFan

Whisper in Shanti's ear to get the NH out:)
 
barletta said:
L - Just curious, is that how ssh is made? f1(Nl/Hz) x f1(Sk/Hz)? Do you know if any of the MrN hazes (maybe eq x hz or la nina) are true f1's (ie: 2 individual lines worked to isolate specific traits, then combined)?
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Hey barletta,
Here is some info I dug up for you real quick that should be relevant to your questions.


Originally Posted by shantibaba
just to clear the air from confusion and before you all go making a legend from myth here is how it was done and is done still....
-Nh is made from Haze C male which is made by two pure haze parents from 1969....then the female side of NH is made from Haze A combined to NL5 or NL5Haze A where Haze A was also made by two pure Haze parents also from 1969
-SSH is made up of Haze C combined to Skunk 1 or Skunk HzC which is the male side, the female side is Haze C combined to NL5 or NL5HzC
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Originally Posted by Shantibaba
''..We test all F1 to make sure between 70/80 % of them show similar phenotypes...that is when we consider the breed a stable breed to sell. The exceptions are in the sativa strains like SSH and Mango etc... where we use aroma/taste as a main trait to breed with. When the sativa strains show 70/80 % with similar taste and smells we consider that to be a stable breed ready for the market. This can take more than 2 years to do, so alot of time and selections go into a strain that is sold from MNS.
With specific reference to MM or White Rhino, you will see a predominant phenotype towards the Afghani traits expressing themselves.Since the widow father has south indian sativa/indica x brazilian sativa you will see to a lesser percentage traits that express and combine to the afghani but vary towards either side of the gentic pool it takes its makeup from...''
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Thanks JessE. I have seen both those quotes, prolly in L's hazyhaze thread. I couldn't remember the '...aroma/taste as a main trait to breed with...' exactly.

Ok, the Hazes (A+C) are selections (I assume BREEDING selections done by Neville) from an ibl/stable hybrid/heirloom seedstock (the oldschoolhaze line). So combining them with NL and Sk (again, selections from true-breeding stock, unless of course it is based on something like the OG NL clone that came over, then THAT might not be ibl ...not the issue, assume nl breeds true) respectively would create f1's. In the case of SSH, both parents (P1 and P2) are f1's.

Again, I am just kind of thinking, and not stating anything as fact. If I say anything that is eyeball bleedingly incorrect, please lemmie know.

So if the parents are f1's, the only options for the offspring are:f2 or poly-hybrid. IMHO, to call ssh an f1(if the parents are f1's) is wrong.

It is possible the parents, (lets say dad Sk x HzA) is not an f1, but instead the P1 SkHz is a breeding selection based on a line bred to reliably (re)produce (70/80%) specific desired traits. The specific SkHz will not be an f1 at that point, he would be part of an ibl/stable line. If the female side (NlHz(c)) was created in the same fashion, and combined with the male (SkHz), then the offspring would be f1's (ssh).

I dunno how Shanti created the SSH seeds.

Wow Got off topic, but it would be cool to get some facts, instead of me posting me mental drivel...

BTW, the Hz comes thru in 1 of my SuperSpice crosses. Don't ask me which allele it rides on (but I'm pretty sure that dad passed it)... hehehe
 
barletta said:
Ok, the Hazes (A+C) are selections (I assume BREEDING selections done by Neville) from an ibl/stable hybrid/heirloom seedstock (the oldschoolhaze line).

So combining them with NL and Sk (again, selections from true-breeding stock, unless of course it is based on something like the OG NL clone that came over, then THAT might not be ibl ...not the issue, assume nl breeds true) respectively would create f1's. In the case of SSH, both parents (P1 and P2) are f1's.

Again, I am just kind of thinking, and not stating anything as fact. If I say anything that is eyeball bleedingly incorrect, please lemmie know.
Click to expand...

Hi barletta


Haze was never stabilized from the Haze Bros and you wouldn't call it an ibl. MNS Haze 'A' + 'C ' are selected male plants , each made from 2 pure haze parents according to Shanti so they are 1-2 generations away from the pure Haze.
BTW when a strain breeds true this doent mean its an ibl. I think Ibl ( Idividual Blood Line ) refers mostly to genetics thats are found in a 'closed' population , with no fresh blood introduction where the genetics reproduce for many generations over time.'True breeding' is different. Skunk is a true breeding strain but far from ibl..

So if the parents are f1's, the only options for the offspring are:f2 or poly-hybrid. IMHO, to call ssh an f1(if the parents are f1's) is wrong.

It is possible the parents, (lets say dad Sk x HzA) is not an f1, but instead the P1 SkHz is a breeding selection based on a line bred to reliably (re)produce (70/80%) specific desired traits. The specific SkHz will not be an f1 at that point, he would be part of an ibl/stable line.

If the female side (NlHz(c)) was created in the same fashion, and combined with the male (SkHz), then the offspring would be f1's (ssh).

I dunno how Shanti created the SSH seeds.

Wow Got off topic, but it would be cool to get some facts, instead of me posting me mental drivel...
Click to expand...
I agree SSH is not F1 , speaking strictly.
I wouldnt say that the parental stock is part ibl. You could say its somewhat stable in the sense that you ll find in a pack a good expression of the desired traits the breeder intended you to find.
 
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Thanks L. I was only introducing the idea of the parents being ibl's if they were line-bred separately, and even then, I guess they would be 'true breeding' but not necessarily ibl. No prob. I was using the terminology only to indicate that the seedstock (haze bros.) was from the same orig population. I guess heirloom is the better term. They combined the genetics, then selected seeds from each year from that same seedstock, year after year.

Just curious, do you know how long it takes for a veggie (corn, tomato, etc..)to be considered 'Heirloom' (growing seasons/selections)? For example, let's say that I have a jumbled bag of beans. I can grow indoors and out, so I can make ~4 gen's per year. After 3 or 4 gen's the future plants will start to take on the traits that I am selecting (consciously or subconsciously) for, no? If my only goal was to produce a reliably fast, funky strain (with little to no regard for plant height/branchy-ness/flavor/effect/yield/color, etc..), I'm thinking that just through selection and heirloom (no clones) breeding, I'd be able to come close. The longer the line is worked, the less variation....

OK so back to the original 'statement/question'. If SSH is the hybrid of 2 separate f1's (each 50% the same Heirloom seedstock), How likely/Is it likely that the f2 (ssh x ssh) gen will produce superior plants? My thinking is that due to the variation in SSH, the ability to select for desired recessives exists. In a true f1 population, only the dominant traits show if I'm not mistaken. If you can select (poss. 'P' stock) for desired recessives (ie: 8wk flower time/purple coloration) right from the seedpack, and you want a ssh that finishes FAST and purple, it would be easier to begin isolating the traits than it would be from true f1 stock.

Are you aware of any MrN hazes that are true f1's?

edit - changed 'genetics' to 'seedstock' in the 2nd sentence of the 3rd paragraph
 
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Hi again barletta,

barletta said:
Thanks L. I was only introducing the idea of the parents being ibl's if they were line-bred separately, and even then, I guess they would be 'true breeding' but not necessarily ibl. No prob. I was using the terminology only to indicate that the seedstock (haze bros.) was from the same orig population. I guess heirloom is the better term. They combined the genetics, then selected seeds from each year from that same seedstock, year after year.

Just curious, do you know how long it takes for a veggie (corn, tomato, etc..)to be considered 'Heirloom' (growing seasons/selections)? For example, let's say that I have a jumbled bag of beans. I can grow indoors and out, so I can make ~4 gen's per year. After 3 or 4 gen's the future plants will start to take on the traits that I am selecting (consciously or subconsciously) for, no?
Click to expand...

Thats right. But I m not sure what you mean with the term 'Heirloom' cause it seems to be a debatable term.

''To be an heirloom, a plant must be "open-pollinated", meaning it will grow "true to type" and produce plants like the parents from seed. This excludes nearly every hybrid.''
from :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heirloom_plant

As for the time to become 'Heirloom' I found some relevant info here if you wanna have a look:

Heirloom_tomato:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heirloom_tomato

But yes what you are basically doing is you are selecting towards certain desired traits as you move on to the next generation. But if you grow large enough populations then you can maintain vigor and avoid inbred depression over say 10-20 generations.. Now what you basically do to is you employ certain breeding techniques that ensure that the vigor etc wont be lost.

If my only goal was to produce a reliably fast, funky strain (with little to no regard for plant height/branchy-ness/flavor/effect/yield/color, etc..), I'm thinking that just through selection and heirloom (no clones) breeding, I'd be able to come close. The longer the line is worked, the less variation....
Click to expand...
Well working with clones has its benefits as you can keep n work with the exact genetics you want , breeding with no clones is more difficult imo

OK so back to the original 'statement/question'. If SSH is the hybrid of 2 separate f1's (each 50% the same Heirloom seedstock), How likely/Is it likely that the f2 (ssh x ssh) gen will produce superior plants? My thinking is that due to the variation in SSH, the ability to select for desired recessives exists. In a true f1 population, only the dominant traits show if I'm not mistaken. If you can select (poss. 'P' stock) for desired recessives (ie: 8wk flower time/purple coloration) right from the seedpack, and you want a ssh that finishes FAST and purple, it would be easier to begin isolating the traits than it would be from true f1 stock.
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Well in the case of SSH and other Haze Hybrids , I would say its highly unlikely to find the same exact plants as the F1 in the F2(SSHxSSH) , similar yes but not the same.

I remember a MNS grower said in the F1 stock (NH) there is around 1 in 10 keepers. In f2 it was way less and in F3s it was 1 in 30.

Are you aware of any MrN hazes that are true f1's?

edit - changed 'genetics' to 'seedstock' in the 2nd sentence of the 3rd paragraph
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Im not sure if you could call any of the mns Haze hybrids a true F1 but what matters is that these lines are great for selecting keepers and they are well worked .
 
L33t you know your shit m8! credit due and all that*bow* its a privilege to share the same forum with someone who knows what they are talking about when it comes to cannabis.
 
Oh, no doubt that MrN has/sells the best seeds available. I think that my SSH 'keeper'(athough, any of the 3 could have been called 'keeper') is the best, baddest smoke that I have come across. My feelings are that since it is not a true f1, there is more variation kinda built in. This allows for a greater range of possible plants (satisfying a greater % of people). Wow, that 1 in 10 in the nev's is kinda shocking. I had heard that for the 'Orig(whatever)' haze, but I thought that the nev's was sort of reliable (better than 25% of females...)

Anyway, I put practice to theory soon enough. I have a 'stash' of sipce x ssh and ssh f2's that I will start cracking ~Sept. I figgure that since I have run a few of the SuperSpices, I will be able to ID the ssh f2's.

Thanks for your help L. :) Good luck with the POTM at the other site...

Lol, I had the trim from most of the superspices on the stove w/olive oil. I'm thinkin - Is the neighbor smokin??, um no, the kitchen is. We got some narcookie brownie bars on the way.... Please disregard (if you haven't already..) everything that I say from ~8pm eastern to ~12pm... That's the cookie talkin..
 
l33t

Well in the case of SSH and other Haze Hybrids , I would say its highly unlikely to find the same exact plants as the F1 in the F2(SSHxSSH) , similar yes but not the same.

No doubt you are correct on that observation. That said, for growers like me who are not much of a connasseur it doesn't matter. Hell, I can't even tell what phenotypes I have. All I know is some lean towards sativa/haze? or they lean towards indica/Northern lights?.

For right now I try to select the most healthy, vigorous of my plants since I don't know much else to go on. I correctly guessed that #4 in my grow now would be a sativa leaner way back before I knew what sex it was...based on it was much taller, lankier, longer internodal space. Maybe indicas do that too. I dont know.

What I am trying to say is that 2/3 of my "f2" SSHx SSH have turned out really nice and I'm happy with the results so far with my SSH x SSH "f2's". The 3rd on had some problems but smokes surprisingly well for 9 weeks and all the trouble. The one with the hard nugs #7, is the frostiest plant I have grown to date....could be better care though, not genetics. It's fine with me if I don't get plants just like the f1's. As you said, there are some good plants in the f2's.

I do have a question about 1/10 Nev's Haze are keepers (I know it is someones opinion) but I've heard that before. Heard it about a lot of strains. Isn't that highly subjective? Or relative? I mean I loved all 4 of the f1 SSH plants I grew. But maybe some of you guys would have killed them off? Wouldn't make the grade, whatever. I'm not being critical, but is that possible? Unless it was an obvious runt or something, what would be objective reasons why one would not select a particular NH pheno?

I hope this makes some sense. I'm tired from work. LOL

SativaFan
 
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Hi SF & Barletta

barletta said:
Wow, that 1 in 10 in the nev's is kinda shocking. I had heard that for the 'Orig(whatever)' haze, but I thought that the nev's was sort of reliable (better than 25% of females...)
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Well its not that shocking cause when you 'hear 1 in 10 is a keeper' , it means that 1 in 10 will be satisfactory in all areas , smoke effect but growth and flowering times as well .On top of that its the yield and so on..So 1 in 10 doesn't mean only 1 in 10 is good smoke or a good plant but 1 will be 'better' and more 'suitable' to keep than the rest . For instance shanti says discard anything that goes beyond 14-16 weeks , but this doesnt mean that the slower ones are less good smoke wise.. its just for practical reasons you need to discard them as the return is relatively low . Now with SSH things are different almost all plants are keepers , you can find fast 8-9 weekers , skunk dominant plants or Hazyt plants , plenty good plants to choose from in a pack. Even the 'worst' SSH f1 is a good plant in general , and can easily compete many from the strains out there but with the Nevs the 'worse' plant is quite impractical and thus you need to be more strict when selecting. The 25% you refer to I think goes to fast finishers' ratio. Like shanti says only 1/4 (25%) of the f1 plants will finish before 14-16wks and it is recommended to select from those fast ones.

Anyway, I put practice to theory soon enough. I have a 'stash' of sipce x ssh and ssh f2's that I will start cracking ~Sept. I figgure that since I have run a few of the SuperSpices, I will be able to ID the ssh f2's.
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Looking forward to see the spiceSSH and SSH F2s in action !

SF

SativaFan said:
l33t

I do have a question about 1/10 Nev's Haze are keepers (I know it is someones opinion) but I've heard that before. Heard it about a lot of strains. Isn't that highly subjective? Or relative? I mean I loved all 4 of the f1 SSH plants I grew. But maybe some of you guys would have killed them off? Wouldn't make the grade, whatever. I'm not being critical, but is that possible? Unless it was an obvious runt or something, what would be objective reasons why one would not select a particular NH pheno?
Click to expand...

Things are relative as you say , even the Nevs which is from the least stable MNS hybrids , is still quite stable if you think about there is a keeper in every pack. Now what is a 'keeper'? Well it depends on what you look for and its subjective . Someone may care for yields more than quality or simply doing a different compromise . But there are objective reasons why one would cull a plant. Like plant resistance/yield/vigor/flower fastness etc

If you compare say mns SSH to StrainX from Xseeds , which sucks , then perhaps all the SSH F1's could be considered as Keepers simply cause they are way better than strainX.. But if you grow 100 SSH F1 you can easily see that some plants are just better than others. After the initial selection what comes to play is personal taste. Some will select a plant over a different one just cause they liked the smell better etc But if you grow enough strains and large numbers with time you get a feeling on how strict you must be during the selection process. It all heavily depends on numbers.
 
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l33t

As always a wealth of good information...and sound opinions. That's what I like about this place.

SativaFan
 
lol indeed you two"


Well I could fully understand Mr Greens answers to f/1's and f/2's and made allot of sense to me, even the comparrison to animals i myself do the same thing, a human animal must survive on the right humidtys and foods just like any plants do really,

Bart's answers were simillar but a tad confusing all the same, however its a good thing to keep up those experiments to see just what becomes of them,

Theres got to be some madness in the things we love most or we could miss out on whatever it is, I forget the name of the dude who made this a famous quote many years ago.
 
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