F1/F2 seeds

[barletta]

Yo everybody. In SF's SSH x SSH thread, me and another member has a lil disagreement about F2 seeds. I didn't want to: 1.Clutter up SF's grow thread. OR 2.Bury the info and make it a 2 person discussion.

I feel that the f2 generation can produce better smoking/stronger plants than the f1 parents. My thinking is this:

Let's say that the gene for thcv is recessive, and the breeder isn't even aware that it exists. He breeds/inbreeds 1 line for ~6 generations, breeding and selecting for flower size/structure. Of course he will keep outstanding smoking plants in the program, that is the point... a certain # of these plants have the thcv genes, and have them in the 'on' position... He breeds the other line for potency, also unknowingly including a decent %of thcv 'on' plants.

Let's say that the beeder crosses these 2 separate inbred lines to create a true f1. Unless the thcv trait has been isolated and selected for, it SHOULD NOT be present in the f1 generation. The f1 generation SHOULD breed true for all dominant traits.

Of course this is a perfect world, and I understand that most plants are not true f1's, but worked lines crossed together to get genetic recombinations of VERY SIMILAR DNA/DNA 'Switches', so this is ALL THEORY, but it interests me, soooo...

If the breeder is happy with his f1 population (breeds true for selected traits, strength, and size/structure), he may never even know that the f2 population COULD re-align the genes that control the thcv. If all else is constant, and the genes for the thcv are switched 'on' (assuming that it is not at the expense of some other potency controlling gene/allele; ie:resin coverage, thc%of glands, etc..), the smoke should be stronger.

Of course, I have grown EXACTLY 8 (PLANTS) of my own (2) crosses, 3 of which are from a multi-hybrid-all-the-hell-over. The SuperSpices, however are cool, because they are all somewhere in between a big-semisweet afghan, to a quick, heavy haze. I had different setups for each run, so comparisons are strictly on 'feel'.....

Anyway, I just feel that it is possible to unlock recessive traits in the f2 generations and beyond that would make a smoker/grower think that the smoke was better. Of course, if you are working with f1's that breed true for all dominant traits, you are making f2's blindly looking for positive recessive traits.

I also feel that most f1's aren't true f1's in the literal sense of the word. I THINK that I saw somewhere that Shanti (PLEASE correct me if I am wrong.) said that the sativas were bred for aroma and effect. So if he works a line derived from Sk x hz for a few gen's looking for speed and effect, and the NL x hz looking for aroma and effect, bring them together, and they are an f1 in the sense that they (parents) each breed true for the selected traits.

IMHO a true, by-the-book F1 is an afghan x thai, or brazillian x indian, etc... And again, the selected 'P' stock must, itself breed true for the selected/desired traits. But again, I am THEORIZING.

I have a dog. SMARTEST, MOST ALERT, (tie)MOST TRAINABLE, VERY PHYSICALLY IMPRESSIVE, etc... Really, this is my dog. She is PERFECT. I THINK she is lab x chow (chow x lab, whatever) OR lab x Akita. That makes her an F1. 1 dog bred for certain traits, USING DIFFERENT 'P' STOCK to start with, got loose and hooked up with another dog bred for different traits, 5000 miles away, with different 'P' stock... She also had almost no desire for human contact/affection. Wants to please, but has no time for 'touching'. I tell people that she is 1/2 cat, which would explain A LOT. ALPHA FEMALE. Probably the weakest dog in the pack at this point, and she RUNS shit. The lil un-fixed female tests her every once in a while - then not till she forgets...

I'm tired..my hands hurt.

 

[Mr green]

so what do you disagree with my opinion on f1 and f2 seeds? my original post

looking good sat-fan F2 seeds can only be as good as the plants they came from I dont think shanti will be offended LOL plants grow differently in different environments e.g you and a m8 both have a cutting off me you both take it home and grow it then compare them they can look like totally different plants its down mostly to the humidity and temperatures all though lots of other things play a part in how plants will look from one and other.

plants that are grown in humid cool environments will have broader leafs and be shorter than plants grown in warm-hot and dry environments they will be tall and slender leafs = 2 totally different looking plants yet they are from the same plant.

f1 plants are usually more vigorous than f2 plants.
f1 plants are not necessarily any better than f2 plants
f2 plants are not as uniform as f1 plants, f1 plants all most look the same,
f2 plants will look like something else and be more of a pick and mix none uniform / hard to distinguish one general type, we know what inbreeding does to humans it fucks them up they get all sorts of problems the same is thought of with plants. mutants LOL

think like this if a black dog meets a white dog they make a new f1 baby = half cast
they have 2 children 1 boy 1 girl they are both f1 half cast
these 2 children inbreed lets say the girl gives birth to 4 children at the same time what do we get?? it can be anything 1 baby might be totally black the other totally white the 3rd one be mixed the 4th one might be anything. there is more wide selection from the gene pool you might find something special out of the 4 dogs(plants) and want to keep.

it ties in pretty well with what you say above? F2 seeds are important in breeding they are used to make new new strains. there is more of a gene pool to chose from. example...

mr nice critical mass = sunk1 x afgan1 = critical mass AKA big bud.
critical mass x critical mass = f2 seeds
the f2 seeds will show more variety than the f1 seed you will start to see things that most ppl know as a throw back eg.. 2 parents are very short and they have a child that is 6'6" the normal hight for a child fully developed is usually in between the hight of both parents how come he is 6'6? or how does he look more like my grandfather than he does me etc..

It is all down to the genes family's have triats that dominate over others some have big noses some have big ears some tall some small etc.. so whats this have to do with f2 seeds/plants?

when you inbreed you will get more selection of the gene pool which you did not get from your f1's what you will find is all mixed up you will see some that look like critical mass some that will look like the parents and some will look like great grand parents and so on.

lets look at critical mass pedigree> mom and dad was mr&mrs =skunk1 x afgan1.

skunk1's mom and dad was Afghan/Mexican/Columbian)
afgan1 if its pure? is mr or mrs afgan1

when inbreed the f2 seed/plants will show a mixture of all the plants above Afghan/Mexican/Columbian and lots of various combinations of them all. The gene pool is now massive you can find something out of all the variations of plants that suits your needs smell,taste,yield,THC etc.

 

[barletta]

so what do you disagree with my opinion on f1 and f2 seeds?

The very first statement

...F2 seeds can only be as good as the plants they came from...

That's the 1 that I used the thcv gene situation to explain my position on.

And the 1 about them all looking the mostly same. They would look the same if bred for uniform appearance. Example: SSH. Lotsa variation. Size, shape, bud structure, but like I said, the parents seem to breed true for aroma and effect.

I can't get down with the whitedog x blackdog = f2. Only if they are separate, distinct, true breeding varieties. Also your example only allows for AA, aa, and Aa allele combinations. What if the white dog was AA, and the black dog was AB?? A third allele is not convenient, but it happens.

Which is the dominant smell, blueberry, diesel, lemon, or haze? It would be EASY if the only REAL blueberry(or diesel, or lemon, etc..) smell only came from a certain landrace, then you could figgure out QUICK what is dominant, and what is recessive. As it is, the cannabis gene pool (IMO) is all jumbled up, that's why you have to select, and almost do a manual 'genetic mapping' if you want to create true-breeding varieties.
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I'm just saying that there can be FIRE plants in the f2 generation of so-so f1 plants. I think.

 

[Mr green]

The very first statement


That's the 1 that I used the thcv gene situation to explain my position on.

And the 1 about them all looking the mostly same. They would look the same if bred for uniform appearance. Example: SSH. Lotsa variation. Size, shape, bud structure, but like I said, the parents seem to breed true for aroma and effect.

I can't get down with the whitedog x blackdog = f2. Only if they are separate, distinct, true breeding varieties. Also your example only allows for AA, aa, and Aa allele combinations. What if the white dog was AA, and the black dog was AB?? A third allele is not convenient, but it happens.

Which is the dominant smell, blueberry, diesel, lemon, or haze? It would be EASY if the only REAL blueberry(or diesel, or lemon, etc..) smell only came from a certain landrace, then you could figgure out QUICK what is dominant, and what is recessive. As it is, the cannabis gene pool (IMO) is all jumbled up, that's why you have to select, and almost do a manual 'genetic mapping' if you want to create true-breeding varieties.
's
I'm just saying that there can be FIRE plants in the f2 generation of so-so f1 plants. I think.

you are a nit picking ****** look what i said "f1 plants are not necessarily any better than f2 plants" do i have to write a big fuck off book to explain this?

I can't get down with the whitedog x blackdog = f2.

i said this to try to make it easy for someone to under stand in layman's terms I said =(f1 not f2). we all knows what happens when we mix paint we get different colors again do i need to wright a book to explain this?

 

[barletta]

Yeah, you did say 'not necessarily better', but the first statement was clear. F2 can't be better than the f1 parents. Not trying to nitpick, but you said 2 completely different things.

I'm not trying to start shit, and I think that we should keep the 'animal kingdom' analogies out, cause I know what I mean, and you know what you mean, but we ARE stoners, and might not convey that meaning to the world....

 

[Mr green]

Yeah, you did say 'not necessarily better', but the first statement was clear. F2 can't be better than the f1 parents. Not trying to nitpick, but you said 2 completely different things.

I'm not trying to start shit, and I think that we should keep the 'animal kingdom' analogies out, cause I know what I mean, and you know what you mean, but we ARE stoners, and might not convey that meaning to the world....

F2 can't be better than the f1 parents.

where have i said that? the part about they are only as good as the parents? thats true because they would never have meet to produce f2 seeds.

I made points on f1 and f2 seeds i do not clam to be correct, its my interpretation of how i see them, how you see them may be totally different
thats genetics for you

 

[barletta]

the part about they are only as good as the parents? thats true because they would never have meet to produce f2 seeds.

Yeah, man that's it. ^^Please explain what you mean by that.^^ I take that to mean: that the f2 generation can't contain plants that smoke better than the f1 parents. Please say what you mean, nut!!! lol.

Do you think that the f2's can be better smoking plants than the f1 parents that created them? Please support your answer below.

Feel like I'm takin the GED test, lol

 

[Mr green]

Yeah, man that's it. ^^Please explain what you mean by that.^^ I take that to mean: that the f2 generation can't contain plants that smoke better than the f1 parents. Please say what you mean, nut!!! lol.

Do you think that the f2's can be better smoking plants than the f1 parents that created them? Please support your answer below.

Feel like I'm takin the GED test, lol

your putting your own words in my mouth/saying. I said the answer already " thats true because they would never have meet to produce f2 seeds."

The rest is your say, not mine. Take a look again what I have said and what you are saying they are not the same.

 

[Mr green]

Here is a question for you??? what would you buy??? f1 seeds or f2 seeds and why?

 

[barletta]

Yo, I'm not putting words in your mouth. The italicized portion is my interpretation of your statement. I thought that I made that clear.
I'm sorry if I said something to piss you off. I just wanted to understand your post/position. I still have no idea whether or not you think that the f2 plants can be better smoke than the f1 parents. I think that the f2's contain some better smoke, and some worse.

thats true because they would never have meet to produce f2 seeds.

I don't know what this means?? Not trying to be difficult, I don't know what you are trying to say. I'm sorry if I mis-interpreted you previously.

 

[barletta]

Tried to just edit the post, but that wasn't happenin....

That's a fair Q. F1's in MOST instances. However if I knew that a certain recessive trait (EX: blueberry muffin smell) showed in the f2's and beyond, I would consider them. But there are also 'ibls' and semi-stable crosses, etc. I think that most hybrids sold (not nec by MrN) are not true f1's.

Take for example the Orange D's. I was told that the cali-o/sk mom and ecsd v3 dad were the orig parents, and the line was 'worked'. I wonder if 2 separate lines were developed several generations, each isolating different desirable traits. Those 2 lines combined for OD.....It's more likely that the inital cross was made, and the line was 'worked'. Selected as 1 line for desirable traits. Not an f1, but a hybrid.

Personally, I would prefer true breeding hybrids (ibl's) (Shit, Spice, FD's pure, superskunk/m39, old school NL) and stable land races. Or, I would like true (imho) f1's ie: brazil x s.africa, india x mexico, colombia x thai, afghan x jamacian ....... Or 1 of them x a true breeding hybrid, etc... I am not the norm, however. I would prefer to buy beans to make beans to find killer pheno's. In the process, I find the killer pheno's as described by other people. Most people want consistent, easy plants.

LOL MOST PEOPLE WANT F1's. They want no part of f2's

 

[Mr green]

Yo, I'm not putting words in your mouth. The italicized portion is my interpretation of your statement. I thought that I made that clear.
I'm sorry if I said something to piss you off. I just wanted to understand your post/position. I still have no idea whether or not you think that the f2 plants can be better smoke than the f1 parents. I think that the f2's contain some better smoke, and some worse.



I don't know what this means?? Not trying to be difficult, I don't know what you are trying to say. I'm sorry if I mis-interpreted you previously.

o.k Have i said anywhere in any of my posts that

f1 plants are a better smoke than f2 plants

NO! you are making things up that do not exist or only in your head. how can I say so much in 5 lines?

f1 plants are usually more vigorous than f2 plants.
f1 plants are not necessarily any better than f2 plants
f2 plants are not as uniform as f1 plants, f1 plants all most look the same,
f2 plants will look like something else and be more of a pick and mix none uniform / hard to distinguish one general type, we know what inbreeding does to humans it fucks them up they get all sorts of problems the same is thought of with plants. mutants LOL

I have never stated its all true, but how do you come out with a question such as

I still have no idea whether or not you think that the f2 plants can be better smoke than the f1 parents.

Have i mentioned anything better than one and/or other? you come out with a lot of information from those 5 lines

 

[Scorpion]

hi guys,
dont mean to interupt,seems you both have an opinion.
F1 seeds are stabile Hybrids that are consistant in growth, appearance,
quality.
F2 seeds are not...just that simple.

carry on now

 

[Mr green]

hi guys,
dont mean to interupt,seems you both have an opinion.
F1 seeds are stabile Hybrids that are consistant in growth, appearance,
quality.
F2 seeds are not...just that simple.

carry on now

thats it in a nut shell as i have said more or less in my original posts. "but, f2 seeds play a big part in breeding"

 

[barletta]

Nut, In my first post, I posed the theory:

I feel that the f2 generation can produce better smoking/stronger plants than the f1 parents.

You responded with the following post, which included the post from SF's thread that prompted me to start this thread. I'm going to put the statements regarding my 'thesis' that I found to contradict each other I'm not trying to start shit bro, just a friendly discussion.

so what do you disagree with my opinion on f1 and f2 seeds? my original post
Quote:
looking good sat-fan F2 seeds can only be as good as the plants they came from I dont think shanti will be offended LOL plants grow differently in different environments e.g you and a m8 both have a cutting off me you both take it home and grow it then compare them they can look like totally different plants its down mostly to the humidity and temperatures all though lots of other things play a part in how plants will look from one and other.

plants that are grown in humid cool environments will have broader leafs and be shorter than plants grown in warm-hot and dry environments they will be tall and slender leafs = 2 totally different looking plants yet they are from the same plant.

f1 plants are usually more vigorous than f2 plants.
f1 plants are not necessarily any better than f2 plants
f2 plants are not as uniform as f1 plants, f1 plants all most look the same,
f2 plants will look like something else and be more of a pick and mix none uniform / hard to distinguish one general type, we know what inbreeding does to humans it fucks them up they get all sorts of problems the same is thought of with plants. mutants LOL

The first statement implies that the f2's WILL be less than or equal to the f1 parents.

The second statement implies that the f1's MAYor MAY NOT be better than the f2's

I cut the rest off, cause I agree with most of it, lol.

I'm out holmes, gotta close some winders, gettin chilly tonight. Damn short hair'd dogs are shivering...

 

[Mr green]

anyone reading this make what you will of it c.u barletta

p.s f2 plants can only be as good as its parents I mean in with out f1 plants you would never get f2 seeds " as only as good as its parents"

 

[Scorpion]

thats it in a nut shell as i have said more or less in my original posts. "but, f2 seeds play a big part in breeding"

yep,ya cant continue until you get thru the F2 selection process...

Ive read alot of discussions about F2 {second filial generation} seed,

bottom line is The Original F1 Hybrid that allowed the makeing of Knock off
F2 generation seed is what you seek and it will never show in any other generation of that hybrid.
Now you can find some excellent plants in F2,F3 and so own.
But they will be rare and not at all like the F1Hybrid...

its really pointless to debate this, you can reproduce your own generation of seed from plants youve grown from seed you bought...
It will never be the Hybrid it came from,and should always carry the
correct f generation in the seed name...

like MangoHaze F2 for example, or G13Skunk x ? {not g13 x pineapples}
if you breed something original,be original with the name too.
if you knockoff someone elses work,then give the credit and correct generation of your seed.
this of course is just my opinion,
so have fun,getstoned and enjoy your life...
it could all be gone tomorrow

peace

 

[herbmister]

as they say round my way
calm down calm down

 

[SativaFan]

Scorpion:

So what should I call the seeds and offspring from the result of my crossing a MNS f1 SSH male with MNS f1 females?

I have been calling them "2nd Generation SSH x SSH".

I know shitall about breeding and the proper terms, but from what I read, my seeds cannot be properly called "f2" seeds. The original parents not being landrace plants or true breeding. SSH being a "multihybrid".

As for the 2nd generation SSH plants I'm getting...They will have a lot of variation. I understand that. However, very good plants can result in 2nd gen plants....don't you agree? It's just that there is no predicting what those variations will be. Two/three of my current plants finishing are turning out to be very nice plants IMO.

I don't like calling things by the wrong name. I want the information on my thread to be accurate regarding the heritage of the plants I'm growing.

Thanks

SativaFan

 

[barletta]

2nd generation poly-hybrid pollenchucking accident. I call mine 2nd generation poly-hybrid pollenchucking experiment.

I think that cannabis 'borrows' a lot of terms from agriculture, and a lot from botany. I have never had more than a high school class of each, so I'm no expert. I am convinced that due to the genetic make up (OHaze, 1969haze, whatever-same-genepool-haze genetics comprise 1/2 of each parent) of ssh only allows it to be an f1, only if each parental line was bred several generations, in order to breed true for specific traits. Then the lines combined for SSH. I understand that the skunk and nl used are ibl's or stable hybrids, or whatever.

So if it is a true f1, as outlined above, than the f1 x f1 gen SHOULD be the f2 gen, no?

I call em f'2s to make life easy....

DISCLAIMER - I HAVE NO IDEA HOW SHANTI CREATED SSH. ONLY USING IT AS AN EXAMPLE. SF AND I BOTH HAVE 2ND GEN SSH SEEDS, AND IT WORKS WELL FOR THIS EXAMPLE. (Sk/HzA x Nl/HzC)