Too soon 4 a mother?
- Thread starter Greenmoon
- Start date
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Guest
hello GM,
45 days comes to mind? for some reason?,
but please wait for a someone else to comment.
#
45 days comes to mind? for some reason?,
but please wait for a someone else to comment.
#
L33t
Well-known member
Hi Greenmoon
For the cuttings to start and finish as fast as poss you should let the seedplant veg for at least ~ 5-8 weeks depending on growth rates and strain.
If you take cuttings earlier the cuts will still take less weeks to fully ripen compared to if you flowered the seedplant , not always the case tho but this is esp true with sativas n sat dominant hybrids.
Now the ideal time depends on strain as I said , basically you want the plant to have reached hormonal maturity before you take cuttings if you want them to finish as fast as possible.
But there is nothing bad/wrong if you take cutting from a seed plant that is very young..you can take cuttings as early..as you can remove a cutting from the seedplant.. ie as early as 2-3 weeks from seed..
The potency is the same as if you had taken a cut from a longer vegged plant , only difference is the flowering time the cutting will need to finish is all.
Some people used to say the potency wont be the same but as I and many other growers & breeders believe thats not the case. It all depends on how well you grow the plants and of course feeding & watering/medium and lighting play a big role .
PS some say that its better to take cuttings in the first weeks of flowering as then the plant has the most vigorous growth at that stage but I ve never had the need to take cuts from flowering plants so don't really know if its the case or not . One thing I do know is that if you try to take cuts after you're several weeks in flowering the cuts will take lots of time to root (18/6) the later the slower and less the chances to get em to root are.
Btw something I would like to mention , stems on the mother/father plants that are old and have turned woody/hard are not as good candidates for cuttings , use soft stems as they are better.
l33t
For the cuttings to start and finish as fast as poss you should let the seedplant veg for at least ~ 5-8 weeks depending on growth rates and strain.
If you take cuttings earlier the cuts will still take less weeks to fully ripen compared to if you flowered the seedplant , not always the case tho but this is esp true with sativas n sat dominant hybrids.
Now the ideal time depends on strain as I said , basically you want the plant to have reached hormonal maturity before you take cuttings if you want them to finish as fast as possible.
But there is nothing bad/wrong if you take cutting from a seed plant that is very young..you can take cuttings as early..as you can remove a cutting from the seedplant.. ie as early as 2-3 weeks from seed..
The potency is the same as if you had taken a cut from a longer vegged plant , only difference is the flowering time the cutting will need to finish is all.
Some people used to say the potency wont be the same but as I and many other growers & breeders believe thats not the case. It all depends on how well you grow the plants and of course feeding & watering/medium and lighting play a big role .
PS some say that its better to take cuttings in the first weeks of flowering as then the plant has the most vigorous growth at that stage but I ve never had the need to take cuts from flowering plants so don't really know if its the case or not . One thing I do know is that if you try to take cuts after you're several weeks in flowering the cuts will take lots of time to root (18/6) the later the slower and less the chances to get em to root are.
Btw something I would like to mention , stems on the mother/father plants that are old and have turned woody/hard are not as good candidates for cuttings , use soft stems as they are better.
l33t
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Greenmoon
New member
Hia,
Hey guy's,thanks for clearing that up gr8 to hear that info.
Also nice to hear your thoughts on the potency there L33t,
sounds like there is very little to no difference except for flowering time,,it basically still comes down to to how she's grown,environmental factors and so on
Ps from my fairly limited experiance at cloning i have found that taking cuttings early into flower(day3-7 mayb) has worked best for me i do kinda beleive they posses fraction more vigour then compared to a plant still in veg but could easily be mistaken as im yet to try all the options.
Cheers!
gm
Hey guy's,thanks for clearing that up gr8 to hear that info.
Also nice to hear your thoughts on the potency there L33t,
sounds like there is very little to no difference except for flowering time,,it basically still comes down to to how she's grown,environmental factors and so on
Ps from my fairly limited experiance at cloning i have found that taking cuttings early into flower(day3-7 mayb) has worked best for me i do kinda beleive they posses fraction more vigour then compared to a plant still in veg but could easily be mistaken as im yet to try all the options.
Cheers!
gm
N
noshow
Guest
good
Hey buddy,
Some great advice from l33t. As for yourself. Some poeple like a complete 100% MP for clones. Some can take them from flowering, and such. It all depends to me. What works for you? I started out taking cutting 3/4 week of flowering. I shaved back that time to earlier, and earlier. That is until I reached the knowledge to keep a mother. It has been sometime, but Using what I know. the only clone I ever lost was my very first one. I got very lucky in this area.
I personally use olivia's. Seems like a great product, and wet the media with ph adjusted water added with superthrive. I also would say less root time from a mother, and earlier in flowering. Good luck frined..peace...Ns
Hey buddy,
Some great advice from l33t. As for yourself. Some poeple like a complete 100% MP for clones. Some can take them from flowering, and such. It all depends to me. What works for you? I started out taking cutting 3/4 week of flowering. I shaved back that time to earlier, and earlier. That is until I reached the knowledge to keep a mother. It has been sometime, but Using what I know. the only clone I ever lost was my very first one. I got very lucky in this area.
I personally use olivia's. Seems like a great product, and wet the media with ph adjusted water added with superthrive. I also would say less root time from a mother, and earlier in flowering. Good luck frined..peace...Ns
J
jaybutta
Guest
Hello peoples...
Had to chime in...couple of things...
First, clone only after plants have shown sex...hormonal maturity, if you will...it just so happens that this will take 6-8 weeks from seed...if you clone before plant reaches maturity (sexes), you run the risk of stressing the plant and having it reverse sex on you...stress = problems for seedplants = above avg. number of males...not what you want, my friend...
Second, I have to respectfully disagree with L33t on what to clone...you want woody, not green...woody (hard, old) means high levels of carbohydrates, and green (or soft) means high levels of nitrogen...green cuts take much longer to root than woody cuts IMHO...you'd be better off smoking those tips than cloning them...smoking those tips will tell you a lot about the plant you're working with...don't believe me, try it...and lemme know...
Third, ideally clones are taken before a plant goes 12/12...period...cloning a flowering plant should only be done if no other clones survive...I fail to see how taking a clip from a budding beauty adds vigor to anything...in my experience, it slows everything down...and...in reality...can weaken the genetics you're working with...over time...
No rooting hormones either (other than nitrozyme)...don't believe in them...cloning is all about creating the right environment...nothing more...
But that's just me...hope this helps...jay
Had to chime in...couple of things...
First, clone only after plants have shown sex...hormonal maturity, if you will...it just so happens that this will take 6-8 weeks from seed...if you clone before plant reaches maturity (sexes), you run the risk of stressing the plant and having it reverse sex on you...stress = problems for seedplants = above avg. number of males...not what you want, my friend...
Second, I have to respectfully disagree with L33t on what to clone...you want woody, not green...woody (hard, old) means high levels of carbohydrates, and green (or soft) means high levels of nitrogen...green cuts take much longer to root than woody cuts IMHO...you'd be better off smoking those tips than cloning them...smoking those tips will tell you a lot about the plant you're working with...don't believe me, try it...and lemme know...
Third, ideally clones are taken before a plant goes 12/12...period...cloning a flowering plant should only be done if no other clones survive...I fail to see how taking a clip from a budding beauty adds vigor to anything...in my experience, it slows everything down...and...in reality...can weaken the genetics you're working with...over time...
No rooting hormones either (other than nitrozyme)...don't believe in them...cloning is all about creating the right environment...nothing more...
But that's just me...hope this helps...jay
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L33t
Well-known member
Hi jay,
''First, clone only after plants have shown sex...hormonal maturity, if you will...it just so happens that this will take 6-8 weeks from seed...if you clone before plant reaches maturity (sexes), you run the risk of stressing the plant and having it reverse sex on you...stress = problems for seedplants = above avg. number of males...not what you want, my friend...''
I have taken clones from plants before they had shown sex and never had any probs whatsoever.. No stress no higher males to female ratio etc..Tho I understand what you want to say about stressing..then again..Well-bred genetics shouldnt show any stress signs or show more males if plants are topped (/cuts removed).
Plus in that sense topping plants in veg during their first weeks should be a no-no...and thats not the case it works great with no probs thousand of growers do it every day with no probs.
btw Maturity can be seen even earlier than you describe , I have had many times plants in veg show preflowers at week 4-5 with many strains if not with most I 've tried. Of course this has to do with growth rates and these depend on factors like how much light/nutes the plant receives etc etc
''Second, I have to respectfully disagree with L33t on what to clone...you want woody, not green...woody (hard, old) means high levels of carbohydrates, and green (or soft) means high levels of nitrogen...green cuts take much longer to root than woody cuts IMHO...you'd be better off smoking those tips than cloning them...smoking those tips will tell you a lot about the plant you're working with...don't believe me, try it...and lemme know...''
I 've tried to root woody stems/cuts mate and did root as fast as soft stems (new growth) from the same plant ..but I will always prefer new growth for a number of reasons. One is new tip growth is always better as you take off only very fresh,newly created cells which is always better.Anyway...all the threads or info on cloning I 've read/seen from experienced growers/breeders say to go with fresh tip growth for cuts...To be honest you are the first person I 've seen to suggest that woody stems are better than soft ones for cloning . Would be nice to hear others views on this..
''smoking those tips will tell you a lot about the plant you're working with...don't believe me, try it...and lemme know...''
Of course you can get bit high from smoking leaf even from plants in veg but I don't like to do that.. I do take an early sample in mid flowering tho and I always get a good idea what the high will be like in the end.
''Third, ideally clones are taken before a plant goes 12/12...period...cloning a flowering plant should only be done if no other clones survive...I fail to see how taking a clip from a budding beauty adds vigor to anything...in my experience, it slows everything down...and...in reality...can weaken the genetics you're working with...over time...''
I personally take clones from veggin plants..Like I said I haven't had the need to take cuts from plants in flowering but what some people say might hold some truth. like I mentioned earlier they basically claim that taking clones during the first few of weeks of 12/12 is good cause the plants have the fastest/most explosive growth at that time (stretch period). I 've noticed that and so their theory makes some sense but I don't know really and can't comment much if any at all as I have no personal experience. Do you?
One more thing I don't agree on with is that it can weaken the genetics over time cause I don't see why this would happen. Infact people have said that taking recessively clones can help restore vigor growth after a few generations and taking cuts during these first weeks of 12/12 helps with vigor. But again I cant say if true...or BS..
Cheers
''First, clone only after plants have shown sex...hormonal maturity, if you will...it just so happens that this will take 6-8 weeks from seed...if you clone before plant reaches maturity (sexes), you run the risk of stressing the plant and having it reverse sex on you...stress = problems for seedplants = above avg. number of males...not what you want, my friend...''
I have taken clones from plants before they had shown sex and never had any probs whatsoever.. No stress no higher males to female ratio etc..Tho I understand what you want to say about stressing..then again..Well-bred genetics shouldnt show any stress signs or show more males if plants are topped (/cuts removed).
Plus in that sense topping plants in veg during their first weeks should be a no-no...and thats not the case it works great with no probs thousand of growers do it every day with no probs.
btw Maturity can be seen even earlier than you describe , I have had many times plants in veg show preflowers at week 4-5 with many strains if not with most I 've tried. Of course this has to do with growth rates and these depend on factors like how much light/nutes the plant receives etc etc
''Second, I have to respectfully disagree with L33t on what to clone...you want woody, not green...woody (hard, old) means high levels of carbohydrates, and green (or soft) means high levels of nitrogen...green cuts take much longer to root than woody cuts IMHO...you'd be better off smoking those tips than cloning them...smoking those tips will tell you a lot about the plant you're working with...don't believe me, try it...and lemme know...''
I 've tried to root woody stems/cuts mate and did root as fast as soft stems (new growth) from the same plant ..but I will always prefer new growth for a number of reasons. One is new tip growth is always better as you take off only very fresh,newly created cells which is always better.Anyway...all the threads or info on cloning I 've read/seen from experienced growers/breeders say to go with fresh tip growth for cuts...To be honest you are the first person I 've seen to suggest that woody stems are better than soft ones for cloning . Would be nice to hear others views on this..
''smoking those tips will tell you a lot about the plant you're working with...don't believe me, try it...and lemme know...''
Of course you can get bit high from smoking leaf even from plants in veg but I don't like to do that.. I do take an early sample in mid flowering tho and I always get a good idea what the high will be like in the end.
''Third, ideally clones are taken before a plant goes 12/12...period...cloning a flowering plant should only be done if no other clones survive...I fail to see how taking a clip from a budding beauty adds vigor to anything...in my experience, it slows everything down...and...in reality...can weaken the genetics you're working with...over time...''
I personally take clones from veggin plants..Like I said I haven't had the need to take cuts from plants in flowering but what some people say might hold some truth. like I mentioned earlier they basically claim that taking clones during the first few of weeks of 12/12 is good cause the plants have the fastest/most explosive growth at that time (stretch period). I 've noticed that and so their theory makes some sense but I don't know really and can't comment much if any at all as I have no personal experience. Do you?
One more thing I don't agree on with is that it can weaken the genetics over time cause I don't see why this would happen. Infact people have said that taking recessively clones can help restore vigor growth after a few generations and taking cuts during these first weeks of 12/12 helps with vigor. But again I cant say if true...or BS..
Cheers
Amoril
Well-known member
my .02 on the woody vs. green cuts....
ive had no choice but to root woody stems before, and its tough.
my method, is to take the smallest, least developed clones that I can. They run out of nutes FAST, and since they are young plant material, they are still in the expansion/growth mode, and take right off. thats just my experience though...and im no pro
ive had no choice but to root woody stems before, and its tough.
my method, is to take the smallest, least developed clones that I can. They run out of nutes FAST, and since they are young plant material, they are still in the expansion/growth mode, and take right off. thats just my experience though...and im no pro
J
jaybutta
Guest
"Any plant can be cloned, regardless of age or growth stage. For best results take clones from mother plants at least two months old. Plants cloned before they are two months old may develop unevenly and grow slowly. Clones taken from flowering plants root quickly but require a month or longer to revert back to vegetative growth. Such rejuvenated clones occasionally flower prematurely and buds are more prone to fungal attacks."
"Cloning is the most traumatic incident marijuana plants experience. Clones go through an incredible transformation when they change from a severed growing tip to a rooted plant, their entire chemistry changes. The stem that once grew leaves must now grow roots in order to survive."
"Clones develop a dense system of roots quickly when stems have a high carbohydrate and low nitrogen concentration."
"Carbohydrate content is highest in lower older more mature branches. A rigid branch that folds over quickly when bent is a good sign of high carbohydrate content."
"Mother plants must have at least 18-hour days to retain a strong and accurate set of genetic characteristics. Each time a mother is forced from vegetative growth into flowering and back to vegetative gowth, her genetic integrity diminishes."
"Degredation takes place over years through stress and through stress of flowering/rejuvenation, which causes plants to lose genetic integrity. Mothers that are forced to flower and revert back to vegetative growth, not only yield less, they are stressed and confused."
"Clones taken from a rejuvenated female tend to be less potent and weaker."
And since...
"A month-old clone from a six-month old mother is not really one month old; it's six months old, just like her mother." (Cervantes)
...a clone taken from a flowering mother that is rejuvenated is the same as a taking a clone from a rejuvenated mother...either way, the genetics have been compromised and the plant will be weaker, if not in potency then at least in vigor...in my experience...
"Cuttings root easiest when they are made while the plant is still in its vegetative growth stage. However, they can be taken even as the plant is being harvested. Some growers think that cuttings from the bottom of the plant, which gets less light, are better clone material, but cuttings from all parts of the plant can root." (Rosenthal)
"Cuttings taken from lower, rigid or slightly woody shoots root the fastest. If you plan on taking cuttings, refrain from adding any nitrogen fertilizer for one to two weeks prior to taking cuttings, since they'll root more readily." (Frank)
"Cloning is the most traumatic incident marijuana plants experience. Clones go through an incredible transformation when they change from a severed growing tip to a rooted plant, their entire chemistry changes. The stem that once grew leaves must now grow roots in order to survive."
"Clones develop a dense system of roots quickly when stems have a high carbohydrate and low nitrogen concentration."
"Carbohydrate content is highest in lower older more mature branches. A rigid branch that folds over quickly when bent is a good sign of high carbohydrate content."
"Mother plants must have at least 18-hour days to retain a strong and accurate set of genetic characteristics. Each time a mother is forced from vegetative growth into flowering and back to vegetative gowth, her genetic integrity diminishes."
"Degredation takes place over years through stress and through stress of flowering/rejuvenation, which causes plants to lose genetic integrity. Mothers that are forced to flower and revert back to vegetative growth, not only yield less, they are stressed and confused."
"Clones taken from a rejuvenated female tend to be less potent and weaker."
And since...
"A month-old clone from a six-month old mother is not really one month old; it's six months old, just like her mother." (Cervantes)
...a clone taken from a flowering mother that is rejuvenated is the same as a taking a clone from a rejuvenated mother...either way, the genetics have been compromised and the plant will be weaker, if not in potency then at least in vigor...in my experience...
"Cuttings root easiest when they are made while the plant is still in its vegetative growth stage. However, they can be taken even as the plant is being harvested. Some growers think that cuttings from the bottom of the plant, which gets less light, are better clone material, but cuttings from all parts of the plant can root." (Rosenthal)
"Cuttings taken from lower, rigid or slightly woody shoots root the fastest. If you plan on taking cuttings, refrain from adding any nitrogen fertilizer for one to two weeks prior to taking cuttings, since they'll root more readily." (Frank)
J
jaybutta
Guest
Hiya L33t...Amoril...hope all is well...
To be honest, cloning is about whatever works for you...I don't believe any two techniques will ever be entirely the same...
Smaller is better, Amoril...not that size matters...but it does!!!
Bigger clones take longer to root, and longer to get going in general...smaller clones root faster and actually outgrow larger clones taken at exactly the same time...it's true...
L33t...when I think green, I think soft, pliable, flexible, stem...I think nitrogen...and that is not what I want or look for when I clone. Just like "less is more" with watering and ferts, "later is better" for taking clones IMO...
Branches at or near the bottom of the plant are the oldest...they are packed full of carbohydrates, the stem is firm (wood) but not thick, and they will be pruned anyway if you're doing it right...just before flowering...
Because they receive very little light, they have an incredibly slow metabolism, making them ideal for cloning...when the clone goes from the bottom of the plant to flourescents, light/nutrient/water requirements will be roughly the same, easing the clones into the rooting process and limiting possible complications from stress...
Fastest growth is in veg. Plant growth actually slows in flowering while light requirements increase...hence the stretch. The metabolism of the plant changes accordingly...plant needs more P and K than N... my thinking is that it is easier/faster/better for a clone to not have to change it's own chemistry (veg vs flow) twice...certainly less stressful for sure...hope this makes sense...tell me what you think...jay
To be honest, cloning is about whatever works for you...I don't believe any two techniques will ever be entirely the same...
Smaller is better, Amoril...not that size matters...but it does!!!
Bigger clones take longer to root, and longer to get going in general...smaller clones root faster and actually outgrow larger clones taken at exactly the same time...it's true...L33t...when I think green, I think soft, pliable, flexible, stem...I think nitrogen...and that is not what I want or look for when I clone. Just like "less is more" with watering and ferts, "later is better" for taking clones IMO...
Branches at or near the bottom of the plant are the oldest...they are packed full of carbohydrates, the stem is firm (wood) but not thick, and they will be pruned anyway if you're doing it right...just before flowering...
Because they receive very little light, they have an incredibly slow metabolism, making them ideal for cloning...when the clone goes from the bottom of the plant to flourescents, light/nutrient/water requirements will be roughly the same, easing the clones into the rooting process and limiting possible complications from stress...
Fastest growth is in veg. Plant growth actually slows in flowering while light requirements increase...hence the stretch. The metabolism of the plant changes accordingly...plant needs more P and K than N... my thinking is that it is easier/faster/better for a clone to not have to change it's own chemistry (veg vs flow) twice...certainly less stressful for sure...hope this makes sense...tell me what you think...jay
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Amoril
Well-known member
thats interesting with the carbohydrates...
but when I think woody stem, I think the stuff that doesnt wish to pinch / bend. Maybe tie down, but not bend at a joint. it tends to tear, ya know?
so, in regards to rooting *those* types of woody stems, my experience has been that the stem tends to rot before it roots. granted, I havent played with it too much, due to poor results.
but, with the smaller branches, here's what I mean. I dont take anything from the top, but anywhere about 2/3 up and lower is fair game. if I take it from lower on the plant, I just make a smaller cut...i cut past the stiff / woody portions of the stem, and just go for the tips.
usually tip, 1 cleaned node above medium, and 1 node below medium.
so, when you say woody stems root faster, it seems a gray area to me. one of the quotes above mentions the stems should be woody, but bendable...to me, that isnt woody lol.
if the N is in the growth tip, then taking a longer stem to get more carbohydrates wont reduce your nitrogen...I just try to run them hungry asap. this is why size matters imo
but when I think woody stem, I think the stuff that doesnt wish to pinch / bend. Maybe tie down, but not bend at a joint. it tends to tear, ya know?
so, in regards to rooting *those* types of woody stems, my experience has been that the stem tends to rot before it roots. granted, I havent played with it too much, due to poor results.
but, with the smaller branches, here's what I mean. I dont take anything from the top, but anywhere about 2/3 up and lower is fair game. if I take it from lower on the plant, I just make a smaller cut...i cut past the stiff / woody portions of the stem, and just go for the tips.
usually tip, 1 cleaned node above medium, and 1 node below medium.
so, when you say woody stems root faster, it seems a gray area to me. one of the quotes above mentions the stems should be woody, but bendable...to me, that isnt woody lol.
if the N is in the growth tip, then taking a longer stem to get more carbohydrates wont reduce your nitrogen...I just try to run them hungry asap. this is why size matters imo
Greenmoon
New member
Hi all!,
gr8 info youve all passed on here i had no idea it would end up so informative when i threw up the question.Thanx
Anyway keep the ball rolling by all means...would try to contribute but i'm out of my depth a bit there i reckon.
ps,
First cuttings i ever removed off any type of plant was the white russians i grew(first indoor grow).
Of 15 cuts from 4 plants in total i got NO strikers.still not sure what happened there either.
Lucky tho i got a lone striker from a afterharvest(week 8+)re vegger but it was let go shortly afterwards and i still wish i hadn't.
Cheers
gr8 info youve all passed on here i had no idea it would end up so informative when i threw up the question
.ThanxAnyway keep the ball rolling by all means...would try to contribute but i'm out of my depth a bit there i reckon.
ps,
First cuttings i ever removed off any type of plant was the white russians i grew(first indoor grow).
Of 15 cuts from 4 plants in total i got NO strikers.still not sure what happened there either.
Lucky tho i got a lone striker from a afterharvest(week 8+)re vegger but it was let go shortly afterwards and i still wish i hadn't.
Cheers