In search of crossing partners to improve landrace strains

[ossi_grower]

Hello there,

I recently found this community and was impressed by all the profound and valuable knowledge that's to be found on here! I also appreciate the discussion culture on here compared to quite a few other online cannabis communities.

So, here's my question with a bit of background about me and my project: I got into growing cannabis a bit short of 2 years ago. I started outdoors with Autofems for my first grow and just finished my first indoor grow short time ago.
As I read more and more on thr topic online and in books, both a strong interest in landraces and older heirloom strains and the wish of breeding my own cultivars tailored for my own needs and uses arose in me.
By now I got a rather small but in my opinion valuable collection of landrace and heirloom strains that I want to preserve but also use in crosses. I think that's the way to go as most modern strains are already crossed to death to the point where there is almost no genetic variability left, with all the negative consequences following with that.

Most I have for now are pure or mostly Indica strains but I also want to try and learn more about pure Sativa strains. I am growing a Highland Thai Sativa from the Thailand - Laos border region at the moment which has some very interesting characteristics. It 's said to have a dreamy and meditative, yet still centered high and isn't as racy as other pure Sativa lines. The terpenes are both musky and citrusy, something I enjoy very much in buds.
The down point is that it has an outdoor harvest time around december. I am in search of a strain to cross it with to lower it's flowering time at best to something between 10 to 14 weeks to make it practibale for outdoor growing at 50° nothern latitude, while not completely diluting it's characteristics. The MrNice selection seems like the perfect place to look for a plant like that. My thoughts have been using a fast flowering Sativa, maybe Haze hybrid to accomplish that.
So this are the strains I considered to use:
- ASH
- Early Haze
- Early Queen
- Early Skunk Haze
- Mango Widow
- N.H.S.
I won some of them in the auctions so practically I'd prefer them but if something else would be better fitting, I would consider that of course.

My other project is about some Indica lines, I have different Pakistani Hash Plant lines, a road-kill Afghani, a Persian Hash Plant and an unknown Indica bagseed plant (probably also a landrace or at least a line that's not heavily worked). With these I want to breed some fast finishing good yielding Indicas with potential for commercial use, too. Maybe you would say, just use an existing line for that to start with. I would like to have something unique, as all these plants have very distinct flavours and smells and I want to preserve their good qualities, but at the same time get the most out of them.
For these I thought about the following cross partners:
Critical Skunk
Devil
G13 x Skunk
Master Kush x Skunk
Ortega
Shit


I'd be happy about any input and opinion on my project and am thankful for a hint on my selection!

Best regards and have a nice week-end, ossi_grower

Edit: Somehow half of my post wasn't saved, added that in.

 

[Ptree]

Hello there,

I recently found this community and was impressed by all the profound and valuable knowledge that's to be found on here! I also appreciate the discussion culture on here compared to quite a few other online cannabis communities.

So, here's my question with a bit of background about me and my project: I got into growing cannabis a bit short of 2 years ago. I started outdoors with Autofems for my first grow and just finished my first indoor grow short time ago.
As I read more and more on thr topic online and in books, both a strong interest in landraces and older heirloom strains and the wish of breeding my own cultivars tailored for my own needs and uses arose in me.
By now I got a rather small but in my opinion valuable collection of landrace and heirloom strains that I want to preserve but also use in crosses. I think that's the way to go as most modern strains are already crossed to death to the point where there is almost no genetic variability left, with all the negative consequences following with that.

Most I have for now are pure or mostly Indica strains but I also want to try and learn more about pure Sativa strains. I am growing a Highland Thai Sativa from the Thailand - Laos border region at the moment which has some very interesting characteristics. It 's said to have a dreamy and meditative, yet still centered high and isn't as racy as other pure Sativa lines. The terpenes are both musky and citrusy, something I enjoy very much in buds.
The down point is that it has an outdoor harvest time around december. I am in search of a strain to cross it with to lower it's flowering time at best to something between 10 to 14 weeks to make it practibale for outdoor growing at 50° nothern latitude, while not completely diluting it's characteristics. The MrNice selection seems like the perfect place to look for a plant like that. My thoughts have been using a fast flowering Sativa, maybe Haze hybrid to accomplish that.
So this are the strains I considered to use:
- ASH
- Early Haze
- Early Queen
- Early Skunk Haze
- Mango Widow
- N.H.S.
I won some of them in the auctions so practically I'd prefer them but if something else would be better fitting, I would consider that of course.

My other project is about some Indica lines, I have different Pakistani Hash Plant lines, a road-kill Afghani, a Persian Hash Plant and an unknown Indica bagseed plant (probably also a landrace or at least a line that's not heavily worked). With these I want to breed some fast finishing good yielding Indicas with potential for commercial use, too. Maybe you would say, just use an existing line for that to start with. I would like to have something unique, as all these plants have very distinct flavours and smells and I want to preserve their good qualities, but at the same time get the most out of them.
For these I thought about the following cross partners:
Critical Skunk
Devil
G13 x Skunk
Master Kush x Skunk
Ortega
Shit


I'd be happy about any input and opinion on my project and am thankful for a hint on my selection!

Best regards and have a nice week-end, ossi_grower

Edit: Somehow half of my post wasn't saved, added that in.

Hi,

All I can tell you, is that I found some pretty interesting phenos in every Mr.Nice strain I grew so far.
From mentioned plants, I tried only ASH, which Iam just relearning right now, its high and taste was pretty good for me

I had to build small grow space just to keep really small motherplant of Northern Widow 2 (champion plant to me)
I was considering Skunk Haze and other widow crosses, especially WACO as a partner to her, but I wanted ASH.
So, I believe it is up to you what suits your needs the most, you open a pack and fly

For indicas, Nordle or G13 Afghan Skunk would be my pick, ... Devil too .

I hope you give us some look on your work by the way & welcome ))

 

[quinxstar]

it's great projects sativa and indica ligne
i got an early haze (early queen X afghan haze) plant who had typical thai savor but it's was the only one the other are more afghan type
i will search on the strain with the same charateristic than the haze male used in the afghan X haze cross ( i dont know if is the haze a or c)
should be a potential male for preserve the thai style

for your inca plant masterkush X skunk and g13 skunk are good choices

 

[Skuncle Lenny]

Agree with the Early Haze for Sativa.
I’ve extended a MKS Indica that was done in 7 weeks.

 

[ossi_grower]

Thanks to the three of you for the replies, hints and the nice welcome here on board, I'll definitely take the time to read up more info on all the strains you have mentioned.

From mentioned plants, I tried only ASH, which Iam just relearning right now, its high and taste was pretty good for me

That sounds good! How long did your ASH take roundabout until it was finished? And did it stretch very much? I'd like to have a cross in the end that's also suitable for indoor grow setups. My Thai stretches like crazy so I switch to 12 / 12 already around one week of vegetation and topping once just before the switch. I don't mind having to apply low or high stress training, as long as that will be sufficient to bring the plants into some kind of shape.

I hope you give us some look on your work by the way & welcome ))

Sure, I'd be happy to show what I do with my plants if you're interested in that! But for now I don't have any MNS gear growing at home, Idk if it's allowed to post the pics of my landrace babies right now. But I'll definitely keep you updated on any progress and I will also report my grow when I made the decision on which 2 strains to use as the crossing partners

it's great projects sativa and indica ligne
i got an early haze (early queen X afghan haze) plant who had typical thai savor but it's was the only one the other are more afghan type
i will search on the strain with the same charateristic than the haze male used in the afghan X haze cross ( i dont know if is the haze a or c)
should be a potential male for preserve the thai style

for your inca plant masterkush X skunk and g13 skunk are good choices

Thank you! The early Haze sounds very interesting for my project! Sorry if I maybe misunderstood you, but are you talking about a specific, rare phenotype or is the thai characteristic trait rather common with the early Haze?
Did you by any chance grow the U2 strain from the Rock & Roll collection some time? It also has the Early queen mother but with a pure Haze father (I think it was the AC in that case) insteadt of the Afghan Hz and I asked myself if that could work well with the Thai, too. The description text here on the auction page and the specifics that I've found about it on seedfinder sounded very cool, but of course it would be nice to hear some first hand experience about it.

Agree with the Early Haze for Sativa.
I’ve extended a MKS Indica that was done in 7 weeks.

Also thanks!
I already got much more clarity for my project now. I'll post some photos of my plants if it's allowed and you don't mind.

 

[Uncle Jack]

Hey and welcome Ossi.
With your stated goals and what I have seen of the Mr Nice line-up so far I would suggest crossing the Sativa to a Shit male.
If I remember correctly I read that Shit crosses well with other strains without imparting too much of itself into the mix.
According to who you believe it may already have some Thai in it as well.
For your indica crosses I would go with Critical Mass, which is half Shit as well.
My two cents

Shit = Skunk#1

 

[quinxstar]

Thanks to the three of you for the replies, hints and the nice welcome here on board, I'll definitely take the time to read up more info on all the strains you have mentioned.

That sounds good! How long did your ASH take roundabout until it was finished? And did it stretch very much? I'd like to have a cross in the end that's also suitable for indoor grow setups. My Thai stretches like crazy so I switch to 12 / 12 already around one week of vegetation and topping once just before the switch. I don't mind having to apply low or high stress training, as long as that will be sufficient to bring the plants into some kind of shape.

Sure, I'd be happy to show what I do with my plants if you're interested in that! But for now I don't have any MNS gear growing at home, Idk if it's allowed to post the pics of my landrace babies right now. But I'll definitely keep you updated on any progress and I will also report my grow when I made the decision on which 2 strains to use as the crossing partners


Thank you! The early Haze sounds very interesting for my project! Sorry if I maybe misunderstood you, but are you talking about a specific, rare phenotype or is the thai characteristic trait rather common with the early Haze?
Did you by any chance grow the U2 strain from the Rock & Roll collection some time? It also has the Early queen mother but with a pure Haze father (I think it was the AC in that case) insteadt of the Afghan Hz and I asked myself if that could work well with the Thai, too. The description text here on the auction page and the specifics that I've found about it on seedfinder sounded very cool, but of course it would be nice to hear some first hand experience about it.


Also thanks!
I already got much more clarity for my project now. I'll post some photos of my plants if it's allowed and you don't mind.

it's a rare one on the early haze on 10 femelle one have thai taste the 9 other was more afghan
i think should be more common on the afghan haze

already grow u2 nothing special for me i like more the cure

 

[ossi_grower]

Hey and welcome Ossi.
With your stated goals and what I have seen of the Mr Nice line-up so far I would suggest crossing the Sativa to a Shit male.
If I remember correctly I read that Shit crosses well with other strains without imparting too much of itself into the mix.
According to who you believe it may already have some Thai in it as well.
For your indica crosses I would go with Critical Mass, which is half Shit as well.
My two cents

Shit = Skunk#1

Thanks Uncle
That's a combination I haven't thought about so far, thank you for the interesting input on the Shit! Yes I heard about Skunk probably containing some Thai parts and that sounds possible and reasonable for me.

About the Critical mass, that's an Afghan x Skunk #1 cross, right? Sorry for the noob question but wouldn't that make it the same as the Nordle / Afghan Skunk / SuperSkunk? Or is the Nordle made with a different Afghani plant than the CM?
Either way I like your both ideas very much because I enjoy Skunk#1 in crosses and as a strain on it 's own. (From my experience it's either love or hate on that but I guess the Shit strain is the best option for an authentic Skunk #1 atm )
I will add both the Shit and the CM to my Wish list and keep an eye on the Auctions section.

already grow u2 nothing special for me i like more the cure

Ok that's good to know, thanks pal.

 

[quinxstar]

Thanks Uncle
That's a combination I haven't thought about so far, thank you for the interesting input on the Shit! Yes I heard about Skunk probably containing some Thai parts and that sounds possible and reasonable for me.

About the Critical mass, that's an Afghan x Skunk #1 cross, right? Sorry for the noob question but wouldn't that make it the same as the Nordle / Afghan Skunk / SuperSkunk? Or is the Nordle made with a different Afghani plant than the CM?
Either way I like your both ideas very much because I enjoy Skunk#1 in crosses and as a strain on it 's own. (From my experience it's either love or hate on that but I guess the Shit strain is the best option for an authentic Skunk #1 atm )
I will add both the Shit and the CM to my Wish list and keep an eye on the Auctions section.

Ok that's good to know, thanks pal.

not the same afghan used in nordle and critical mass is in the strain description of the critical mass

"It has a genetic pedigree originating from a particularly heavy Afghani combined with the original Skunk#1"

 

[Uncle Jack]

@ossi_grower
They would be made with different Afghani selections.
You will notice a common thread among many Mr Nice varieties.
And that is Shit. Whether there are multiple Shit/Skunk males being used I do not know.
It must pass on nice predictable, stable qualities that allow the specimen plant to shine through in the cross.
In the process reducing flowering time and adding yield but not imparting too much of itself in the finished product.

 

[ossi_grower]

Thanks for the clarification! After getting all these replies of you with that much help, I overthought my plan and breeding goals and got (at least in theory ) already a big step forward:

I want to introduce both the Shit and one of the Haze lines (still not 100% certain which, I'm between trying the Early Haze or the Afghan Haze first... sometimes I can't stand making decisions ) as a partner with my Sativa landrace plants and then I'll just see what usable little plants I'm going to find in the F1 seeds and go on from there with selection for both Thai characteristic and a fast and early flowering.

For the Indica plants I still have a few question marks popping up in my head...
Soo, after reading a bit more about the Critical Mass, it really catched and amazed me a lot and I definitely want to have it in the line. But I'm worried about the susceptibility to mold.
I originally had the plan to design the line for indoors, but I definitely don't want to put so much effort into a line that I can really only put indoors. (My location is mid-highlands in Central Europe, with warm summers but very changeable and unpredictable autumn, which is either still warm, sunny and golden, or just totally rainy and wet cold.)
Is the Critical Mass very susceptible to mold and how do the other big-yielding mostly Indicas from Shanti (especially the Nordle, G13 Skunk, Devil, Shit and MKS) handle mould in comparison?
If necessary, my plan B would be to grow 2 lines here as well, one for indoors with the CM and one for outdoors with one of the other pretty plants.

Here a few photos of my landraces at the moment, so you maybe can get a better idea of what I want to accomplish:


This are my 2 Highland Thai Sativas, although the right one doesn't look much like a sativa at all so far. But I read that this line is somehow connected to the Chinese Yunnan Landrace, which has a large amount of Indica genetics itself. The seeds that I grew the 2 little plants from also were F2 reproductions, so maybe some recessive genes from an old ancestor came up in my plant.
I topped the narrow leaflet plant a few days ago and already switched the light to 12 hours of darkness. I hope that I can keep them from reaching enormous heights this way.



This is my bagseed "Hippie Weed" plant. So far I'm very happy with it's vigour and development. It looks like a very pure Indica to me. It has a very columnar shape and bigger and broader leaves than any of the other varieties so far. Three days ago I decided to top/fim her, it seems that this didn't lead to much of a grow stop. Now she already shows the first flower hairs.
I searched and tried to find photos of any similar looking lines both in the MrNice catalogue and in various grow reports but sadly I haven't found a match so far. She also is definitely none of the other Indica varieties that I am growing so far, they all have some characteristics from which they can be safely distinguished from each other. Maybe you can see something in her that I have overlooked?

Here's a photo of a Master Kush that's growing next to her as a comparison. The mystery plant is stilll around 10 cm less tall, but in my opinion aside from that she looks at least as vigorous as the Kush.
The MK also had some big issues with pests feeding from her while the unknown plant had only some minor damage and also seemed to attract way less insects than the MK.

 

[quinxstar]

the leave not look very sativa look like nordle

 

[Uncle Jack]

All you can do is experiment and see which stud makes your lady happy.

 

[ossi_grower]

the leave not look very sativa look like nordle

Are you talking about the 2 small plants or the bigger plant? The seeds from the 2 Thai Sativas looked exactly the same, so I would think that there has to be some kind of wide phenotype variation leading to this different leave forms. The left one really looks like very pure Sativa to me with it's very narrow delicate leaflets.

For the bigger one I don't have any clue what it could be. I bought some heavily seeded bud last year for under 1$ per gram and just found it interesting to grow some of it out as I really enjoyed it's high. It was very mellow, happy and relaxed high, perfect day time allround smoke for a moodlift but also good to lay back and unwind at later times. The only info I have on that is that it's no modern sort of polyhybrid but rather an older outdoor strain, it was just called low budget "Hippie Weed" by the grower.

I am excited to see it flowering, maybd then it will be easier to gather some more information on it. But thanks for the hint about Nordle, I will look into some more grow reports of it and maybe Nordle would also be a good match as a cross partner, if it has many similarities to my mother plant to begin with.

All you can do is experiment and see which stud makes your lady happy.

Yes sure, that's what I'll do.

 

[quinxstar]

have you buy your seeds on RSC because is not the same kind of leave on theirs pics long fine finger leave not fat finger like on yours pics

 

[ossi_grower]

have you buy your seeds on RSC because is not the same kind of leave on theirs pics long fine finger leave not fat finger like on yours pics

Yes the Thai is originally from RSC but I am growing F2 seeds of her (but still I wouldn't expect such variation since it should be a somewhat uniform strain to begin with... or that's just what I thought, maybe I'm wrong about it)

Most weird is that one of the Thai has thin fingered long leaves and the other has this bushy more Indica appearance.
Maybe on this pic it's easier to see their difference:



The left one looks the way it should I guess.


Oh and just to be clear, these are not the same as the bigger plant in the 2nd and 3rd photo in my post. This is the unknown Indica line that I was talking about earlier.
I'll also take some pics of the other landrace plants later on, if you guys don't mind.

 

[ossi_grower]

have you buy your seeds on RSC because is not the same kind of leave on theirs pics long fine finger leave not fat finger like on yours pics

Sorry for the double post but I found the explanation right on the RSC home page :


I should have checked that earlier.
Then it seems they just forgot include a photo of the broad-leaflet phenotype in their seed description.

 

[musashi]

It seems many “landrace thais” have been cut with chinese indie to shorten grow time and so technically are hybrids and not pure landrace. Ace has done this too. How many times have you grown out your thai as they are notoriously unstable? Important to confirm that it is a stable plant before considering it for breeding. That should be your first step. Selection is key.
Any big budded plants are susceptable to mold depending on humidity in your area. If your grow season is short then you have no choice but to grow inside with better environmental controls.
Yes, some phenotypes attract pests and disease more than their counterparts. Again, selection can play a positive role here.
If you still are looking to cross with an indie of course stay with the fast maturing ones. Shark Shock has some 56 day plants. LaNina is a good example of a Thai/Widow cross. Some hybrids with a little haze can increase resilience to mold. As you are interested in MK, perhaps a quick maturing Master Kaze?
Good luck with your fun project!

mu

 

[Uncle Jack]

Should be fun searching through the seeds you make.
Best of luck

 

[ossi_grower]

It seems many “landrace thais” have been cut with chinese indie to shorten grow time and so technically are hybrids and not pure landrace. Ace has done this too. How many times have you grown out your thai as they are notoriously unstable? Important to confirm that it is a stable plant before considering it for breeding. That should be your first step. Selection is key.
Any big budded plants are susceptable to mold depending on humidity in your area. If your grow season is short then you have no choice but to grow inside with better environmental controls.
Yes, some phenotypes attract pests and disease more than their counterparts. Again, selection can play a positive role here.
If you still are looking to cross with an indie of course stay with the fast maturing ones. Shark Shock has some 56 day plants. LaNina is a good example of a Thai/Widow cross. Some hybrids with a little haze can increase resilience to mold. As you are interested in MK, perhaps a quick maturing Master Kaze?
Good luck with your fun project!

mu

Thank you for that insight and detailed comment on my project!
First of all, I know that I'm a rookie when it comes to cannabis breeding and that I will have to (but also want to ) learn much more about it, but I really value the way and tone that all of speak to me about my questions. Even if some of them probably seem trivial to you, nobody got annoyed so far and people always really wanted to help me. So kudos and a big thank you again, sadly this is not the way ig goes naturally in our community (it rather seems to me that online growing communities can be surprisingly toxic at times )

So, to come to your questions:

Oh wow that's good to know. I just read about that practique to cut Thai landraces with indica or even Skunk earlier this day on RSC's homepage. There they assured that they haven't done this ever. They didn't tell any names but according to Rsc another big seller of landrace geneticy is offering some sativa landraces cut not only with this Chinese Indie but also with Skunk#1 (proven by genomic analysis) as a shortcut in the breeder's work and art. It's sad and disappointing to hear that. I mean I never ordered something from Ace, but they had some lines that seemed pretty interesting though, e.g. their 70's Hazes. But being intransparent or even straight up lying about their seed's genetics is a big red flag for me and I will stay wide away from their stuff now.
I can't imagine Rsc doing the same though. They offer so many different lines, some directly from the field so to say without doing any work or selection prior to offering them. And they are very transparent about everything. If a strain takes half an eternity to finish or even if the strain was probably exposed to some hybrid pollen in its homeland they just write it in the description and let people decide if that's the strain for them or not.

Thanks for your note on the stability, maybe I didn't give that enough. . I'm at the F2 generation now, I want to make some seeds with these again and then grow the F3, select the imo best of them and start pollinating them with pollen from an outstanding MrNice strain.
I'm going to watch their growth closely in the next to see how stable they are and if there are more differences in the phenotypes than only the leave form.

Hm, thanks for the clarification on mould on buds. My plan for the Thai is to cross it with another MrNice Sativa line, the MNS Indica strains should only come into play with my own Indies, so both lines can keep the base of their characters and only become improved, super charged versions of themselves (that would be the perfect outcome at least ). For the Sativa I hope for a little bit added yield, a better mold resistance that you also mentioned and a few weeks faster finish so it can be grown outside. With the Indie I want to emphasize on maximum yield and then second also a fast finish before end of September if possible. Your suggestions sound very good in any case, I will also read some grow reports about the Shark Shock, La Nina and Master Kaze
Let's just see where this all goes, it will be a fun project for sure regardless of the end product I'd be happy to share my progress and results on here with you!

Should be fun searching through the seeds you make.
Best of luck

Yes I think so, it's already fun to search for different phenotypes in the parent seeds but the crosses will be even more exciting for sure