Future project

[Rhizome]

Everyone enjoying the holiday's so far?


Thanks! Mephisto sells only feminized seed. I did get my hands on several Mephisto crosses, all crossed with a regular auto Coal Miner's Daughter from Gnome. This resulted in regular auto crosses for me to play with. I've selected the Mephisto's Wedding because of her white appearance and even though it says on their site that there's no White Widow in it's lineage, it still has loads of "coincidental" similarities, but little to no flavour. But it has a vast population of trichomes covering every part of her buds and sugar leaves. Also Medically, it's cured buds ease my backpains for which I otherwise have to take benzo's... So I (back)crossed a male from the new hybrid with two original Mephisto's Wedding girls. One ending up large and fluffy = no good. And one smaller of size. With rock hard buds, loads of flavour going from fruity to vanilla cream cookies and even menthol. The latter I didn't like to be honest. But not all F1's ended up like that, so there was loads of choices to be made. I inbred several sweet F1's I liked to an F2 and those genetics will be used to autofy the Widows


Also, I've had some serious time over the holidays to get my stone on and read up on a whole lot of books I found online, I start dreaming of what to be...And so I opened up my diagram tool and started all over again. This time having my Punnett calculator right beside me...
If I lay both diagrams beside each other there is a clear difference...

• The left one, being the original genogram I shared in the 1st post, is more concentrated on creating two separate inbred lines, each connected to the original parent. Only at the end both lines are interbred to fixate both genetics into a new line.
• The right genogram is inbreeding both parents, each one after the other. And by doing so, no more creating two separate lines, but having one large mixed pool to choose from, but I suppose there will also be much more variance in this one...

View attachment 79844View attachment 79845

I know this is a very advanced topic and that this knowledge could be classed as "proprietary", but can anyone with the knowledge and experience in breeding (ahum @shantibaba ♥ pretty please) tell me which one would be preferred? And why? Or is there a better way of doing things? Remember, I'm still learning

I would be very much obliged



Regards,

Bob

Very nice post Bob, incredible interesting.
Hopefully someone with real experience like shantibaba will follow up and I am signing to follow your project. Well done!

I will grow Mephisto in few weeks ( including wedding) and I always though to cross Mephisto not to achieve autos, but photos and have a keeper ( M.wedding is junk seed genetics!!!) ( I am considering Girl Scout Cookies actually for my project).

I was to the idea that backcrossing is not so easy to plan. I mean that you can use backcrossing to stabilise or reinforce certain trait, but this is difficult if not impossible to anticipate 2-3 generations in advance when and to which to backcross.

Sorry to jump on your thread without knowledge to support...but it's very interesting!
NOTE: Mephisto did a survey for future strains and one of the most mentioned new ideas was exactly BW X ( girl scout cookies, wedding, Toof decay, mango Smile and others)....but the base ( which don't need to be the female necessarily) was White Widow!!!! You should talk with Tim and Mitch

 

[Bob's Auto's]

I think "better" is relative. Depending on your goals and what your willing to do will dictate which is better for you, personally.

Btw, interesting read on your chosen male auto. Nice history.

Thanks for the kind words brother
My goals are known, the only unknown variable is what the results will be. We'll take it day by day...

Hopefully someone with real experience like shantibaba will follow up and I am signing to follow your project.

That would make me a...

I will grow Mephisto in few weeks ( including wedding) and I always though to cross Mephisto not to achieve autos, but photos and have a keeper ( M.wedding is junk seed genetics!!!) ( I am considering Girl Scout Cookies actually for my project).

There's a couple of Mephisto's I like, but like so many in today's market, it's all in a name what sells. I do like their way of working. Explaining where the original genetics came from, what they did to it... They are in the higher echelon of the market, let's say.
Oh, just a thought. But why not order from Seed Junky direct and skip the whole, auto to photo. As they have the original genetics and some worked out versions of it. Just a thought.

I was to the idea that backcrossing is not so easy to plan. I mean that you can use backcrossing to stabilise or reinforce certain trait, but this is difficult if not impossible to anticipate 2-3 generations in advance when and to which to backcross.

I think, that's why there's so few actual breeders chiming in on this thread. For one they had to work hard to gain that knowledge and two, they don't have a crystal ball... It's like I said in the beginning. I'm not looking for someone to hold my hand, but rather point me in the right direction. That's why I created the second genogram and started to calculate the percentages. It's the theoretical knowledge I'm after for now.
So to compress my question...What would be better. Either grow two separate lines and when both are done cross them to regain vigor in the offspring? Or take the other approach and cross to a Widow, inbreed the offspring so the recessive auto gene is present, make my selection and backcross to the other parent, which is actually not a real backcross since we only used either mom or dad in the first cross...
Cross the offspring again, backcross to the first Widow parent and do the whole thing over again until I'm satisfied with the offspring. This can go on indefinitely, but is this necessary?

I'm fairly sure Shantibaba breeds auto's or autofy some photo strain for seed production. I've seen several auto's coming by in the auctions. Not many, but I've seen 'm.
So I'm actually curious how he does it. And probably more curious about how he would want to do it, providing he had unlimited time, if you know what I mean. The seedhouses need their new fab every now and then...So a four year project is probably out of the question in those cases, but I have time to create an auto Widow I can be proud of. Something I can call my own and takes me back to my younger years...

Sorry to jump on your thread without knowledge to support...but it's very interesting!
NOTE: Mephisto did a survey for future strains and one of the most mentioned new ideas was exactly BW X ( girl scout cookies, wedding, Toof decay, mango Smile and others)....but the base ( which don't need to be the female necessarily) was White Widow!!!! You should talk with Tim and Mitch

Not to worry at all my friend. That's what forums are all about, sharing knowledge and talk to each other.
I live in Europe and have the feeling they are focusing their energy primarily to the UK and USA. I pm'ed Stan (he's the meph guy on AFN) and got no response.
Ordered my cultivars via a friend in the UK as they don't ship to Europe and had a buddy in the USA send me them CMD/Meph crosses over. He liked my posts until I started dusting the Mephisto Wedding with pollen, then never saw him again in my threads...I don't understand that kind of behavior. I would be proud to see my genetics work live on in other cultivars out there. I think all the old timers are enormously proud of their work. Without them there wouldn't be all the crosses there are today.

Anyway, enough sucking up
Maybe one last thing. Tomorrow there's a live Q&A on YouTube with Scott himself. You can watch it here I've set my alarm clock

Regards,

Bob

 

[Diesel840]

I would imagine that your first plan would make it easier to determine what traits the P 1's are passing on. If you switch parents constantly, it might be harder to lock in specific traits you are searching for.

I would inbreed them a few gens like you originally planned, then cross the two lines together. Though, if you had a seriously stellar P1 Widow, you might not necessarily need to create two separate lines and re-introduce.

If the p1 is a true representation of the Widow you are searching for, then cubing it would lock in all the amazing traits, or most of them. Intoducing a different widow, especially from a different breeder, would possibly introduce traits you dont need.

To avoid inbreeding depression, all you'd have to do is mix in a batch of seeds from an earlier generation to restore vitality. This way, you label your best gens of auto widow, breeding back to those gens every so often, doubling down on the genotype you want while restoring some vigor.

 

[Bob's Auto's]

I would imagine that your first plan would make it easier to determine what traits the P 1's are passing on. If you switch parents constantly, it might be harder to lock in specific traits you are searching for.

That was my original idea as I've read and heard that the males are something to look out for. "Real breeding stock to be found"
So working with three males down one line and three females down the other should increase my chances.

I would inbreed them a few gens like you originally planned, then cross the two lines together. Though, if you had a seriously stellar P1 Widow, you might not necessarily need to create two separate lines and re-introduce.

Yeah, that's what I meant with the "unknown variable". There's a chance I'll find the right cross through the father, so that's why I wanted to use Ethephon. That way, more female expressions should be shown and a "better?" comparison can be made.

If the p1 is a true representation of the Widow you are searching for, then cubing it would lock in all the amazing traits, or most of them. Intoducing a different widow, especially from a different breeder, would possibly introduce traits you dont need.

Yes, but real cubing isn't possible because then I would loose my recessive auto gene. Only about 2% would be heterozygous for the auto gene. In my small setup this just isn't feasible. The max is 36 plants and that's in P9 pots. I'll be culling along the way until I have 16 remaining and then transfer to 3.5L pots filled with living soil of course, but then still the chances I'd find one would be very slim...
Or are you suggesting I'd do the cubing before the hybridizing with the auto parent?

To avoid inbreeding depression, all you'd have to do is mix in a batch of seeds from an earlier generation to restore vitality. This way, you label your best gens of auto widow, breeding back to those gens every so often, doubling down on the genotype you want while restoring some vigor.

So by backcrossing into let's say the second generation instead of to the original parent you double up and keep vigor? Wouldn't you then also double up on the unwanted attributes from the auto parent? Now that's some information to write down, thank you!

 

[Diesel840]

Or are you suggesting I'd do the cubing before the hybridizing with the auto parent?

Sorry, I chose my words poorly. If I remember correctly, you were planning on
back crossing every few generations back to the p1. I think I saw you doing it a few times on the chart. That's why I used the word cubing. But my words were poorly chosen. What I meant and should have said is backcrossing multiple times to one p1 every few generations would lock more of the P1's traits as opposed to breeding back to a different Widow p1s which might take longer to lock specific traits.

So by backcrossing into let's say the second generation instead of to the original parent you double up and keep vigor? Wouldn't you then also double up on the unwanted attributes from the auto parent? Now that's some information to write down, thank you!

Again, I should more carefuly give advice. I don't always explain myself properly, apologies.

What I meant is once you have a single widow auto line you're happy with which exspresses the traits you're after, you could save seeds from that batch. After haveing inbred that widow auto for several generations, if you notice vigor reducing or you start stacking less desirable recessive alleles you could then backcros your heavily inbred widow auto with the older generation of seeds to improve lost vigor and re-introduce possitive alleles you may have inadvertantly bred out. Or, worst case scenario restart your breeding project from your batch of seeds you're happy with.

Example. Let's say you have your two P1's, a widow and your auto. You breed those a few gens, back crossing to the P1 widow every few gens like you had planned to ensure the genome is primarily your prized widow.

Once you're happy with the widow autos, they express as widow but with an auto trait, you save as many of the seeds as possible. Just as an example, lets say that is the 5f gen you're super happy with.

Let's pretend that 5 or 6 generations later on the f10 or f11 you begin to notice inbreeding depression, or you realise you accidentally inbred undesirable traits. You could back cross your f10 with the ideal f5 gen to reintroduced alleles you may have bred out and bring back a bit of vigor.

You could theoretically save batches of seeds from your best generations and keep them as back ups to restart with or back cross to when ever you loose traits or vigor.

I hope I did a better job of explaining myself. Apologies.
Diesel840

 

[Diesel840]

Creating two sepperate Widow auto lines then recombined down the line would probably give the best genetic diversity, but you'll also be adding more work. Besides having to develop a sepperate widow auto line, you'll also be intoducing more genes. Which could potentially require more selection be once recombined.
Mind you, this is more of a possibility if you use p1 widows from different companies. If you Make two sepperate widow auto lines using widows from the same company, locking down traits might be easier.


Total speculation btw. I've never bred cannabis. Just played out hundreds of imaginary programs in my head.

 

[longball]

Total speculation btw. I've never bred cannabis.

Well, that answered my next question. Thanks, Diesel!

 

[Diesel840]

Well, that answered my next question. Thanks, Diesel!

At least I'm forthcoming and honest! I wouldn't want someone thinking I'm smarter than I am. Think of this as backseat breeding

 

[Bob's Auto's]

Creating two sepperate Widow auto lines then recombined down the line would probably give the best genetic diversity, but you'll also be adding more work. Besides having to develop a sepperate widow auto line, you'll also be intoducing more genes. Which could potentially require more selection be once recombined.
Mind you, this is more of a possibility if you use p1 widows from different companies. If you Make two sepperate widow auto lines using widows from the same company, locking down traits might be easier.


Total speculation btw. I've never bred cannabis. Just played out hundreds of imaginary programs in my head.

Thank you kindly for participating and thinking along.
The original reason for choosing all the different genetic lines is that I don't know which variant was roaming around in the Roosendaal/Bergen op Zoom/Breda region in the nineties, because that's where I spent most of my time during that period. It will all become clear after the initial grow test. Selecting the best and pertiest specimens to my liking.

Well, that answered my next question. Thanks, Diesel!

A feeble attempt at humor? Or an opening for discussion?
I've got an honest question for you my friend...Why is there so little discussion in this thread? You guys supposed to be the best of the best...
I joined here in the hope of gaining knowledge. I've been reading this forum for a while now, before starting to ask questions as I wouldn't want to ask things twice. And to be honest I couldn't find many threads which didn't have a flamewar started after a couple of pages. Resulting in people removing their posts, pictures and so on. That's actually really sad to see those things happen and at times so frustrating I had to close my laptop because of all the hatred being spewed.
Please, pretty please don't let this thread go the way of the dodo...

At least I'm forthcoming and honest! I wouldn't want someone thinking I'm smarter than I am. Think of this as backseat breeding

Yes you are!! And participating in this thread, actually improving and furthering this forum.
Unlike all the people looking and reading, which isn't right or wrong just an observation. Or starting things that don't have a place here.




Let me be forward with all of you nice people here. I intend to spend a decent part of my life chasing for that lost White Widow I smoked in my teens. I want to share this voyage with you all, here and at AFN. What I don't want and will contest with the mods and admins if that should be the case, is people making fun of someone else, just because they can. If not, there's always this button then at least I don't have to read all that ugliness...
Please share your knowledge as this is what a forum is all about. I intend to do so, showing the good, the bad and the ugly...Check my threads at AFN, I don't embellish anything and show it like it is. That's the only way newbie's (we all were one at some point, try to remember that) can learn...



Regards,

Bob

 

[Diesel840]

I've got an honest question for you my friend...Why is there so little discussion in this thread? You guys supposed to be the best of the best...

There isn't as much traffic here as some other forums. Many of the people who participate here may not check the site as often. I'm confident that in time more people will contribute. If one combs through the site, you'll find gems from Shanti sprinkled around here as well as golden older post from Nevil. They are the best and were the OG's.

A feeble attempt at humor? Or an opening for discussion?

Longball seems like a good guy. Sometimes his humor goes over my head, but so do alot of other people. He's actually jumped in and helped me out alot in some of my threads. ¹

all the people looking and reading, which isn't right or wrong just an observation

I myself spent years as an observer before I ever posted. I wish I'd done it sooner, and grown sooner. Many of them will join the discussions in time. This thread could be the catalyst to get them posting!

With so many people trying Auto's, this thread could be an inspiration to some of those people causing them to join. With Mr. Nice being a photoperiod company, some people might overlook us if they only work wirh autos. This thread is a great bridge for the two worlds.

Diesel840

 

[Bob's Auto's]

Maybe one last thing. Tomorrow there's a live Q&A on YouTube with Scott himself. You can watch it here I've set my alarm clock

Whish to thank @shantibaba and son for the experience!! Whooop whooop!!!

 

[Diesel840]

@Bob's Auto's I'm going to have to watch that.