Future project

[Bob's Auto's]

Hey Everybody


I'm currently in the preparation for my next project. Creating an as close as possible auto variant of the Widow I knew when I was a teen...
Been reading non stop on this forum and I've learned more in the last days then I did in the last two years playing around. With that knowledge I've thought up the diagram below.
I was wondering if anyone with any insight in breeding could check it out and see if my brain twists makes any sense doing it this way, or if there's a better way of doing things.
Mind you, I'm still learning so any comment is welcome.

Let me continue with explaining my thinking...
Provided I make the right selections at the F2 stage of each line and select the whitest, frostiest plant that flowers under 24/7. ie, an 'Auto'. And then Bx it to it's recurrent parent, I should be able to have 25% chance for the auto trait to appear in the next F2 down the line, right?
Repeating that process another two times should then effectively burn in the genes from the recurrent parent + hopefully as little as possible from the donor parent except for the auto trait, but also bottleneck the cultivar as negative traits can creep in without me noticing for a couple of generations. To overcome this I was thinking of do something, I think @shantibaba has used on occasion...And bring both lines together, first as a hybrid with loads of nicks from the recursive parents creating the first IBL and finally we'll do a sibling cross ending up with a IBL2



Many thanks in advance you guys


Regards,

Bob

 

[Islandgrower]

Looks like a plan found some info on the numbers Info

 

[longball]

Looks like a plan found some info on the numbers Info

Hi Islandgrower!

Is that second 'pink' Info supposed to be a link? It doesn't seem to be working.

Longball

 

[Islandgrower]

Hi Islandgrower!

Is that second 'pink' Info supposed to be a link? It doesn't seem to be working.

Longball

I just realized that it doesn't work.


edit fixed it I think .

 

[longball]

fixed

 

[Diesel840]

Hey @Bob's Auto's looking good there. You've clearly done some research and put much thought into your breeding plans. Good luck with everything. We'll all be watching! I look forward to following you along on your journey.

 

[Bob's Auto's]

Looks like a plan found some info on the numbers Info

Thanks for the link on the percentages my friend
My thinking behind going back and fort from F2 auto to BC1 photo is because I want to maximize the Widow genes, while only picking up the auto gene from the donor parent. Going from 25% to 100% in one generation should be possible, provided I keep all the plants under 24/7 light and do a selection for the three fastest ladies and gents. Since the auto gene is recessive, only plants which are homogenous for that trade should flower under those conditions. At least that is what the online documentation suggests...

Hey @Bob's Auto's looking good there. You've clearly done some research and put much thought into your breeding plans. Good luck with everything. We'll all be watching! I look forward to following you along on your journey.

I've been researching the subject of breeding cannabis for a couple of years now. The theoretical genetics side can be compared to breeding Scalares, which I did for several years in my teens... making Punnett square's was fun todo, but in all practicality, we're not talking about one gene, but many many more. They do help you get an idea to where things are going, but in the end it will come down to what selections the breeder makes.

I was hoping that some more breeders (pro or hobby) would chime in on the, above, chart. Seeing as this is a whole lot of work, in which I'm about to partake in. It will most likely not be finished in less then four years, which is quite the investment. And that is, if I don't decide to grow something else for a change in smoke...
Maybe there's something I'm overseeing or I'm taking the long way to get there. Maybe there's a better way... I really need the guiding hand of someone willing and knowledgeable to push me into the right direction. I'm not asking to tell me what to do, but rather give a nudge now and then to prevent me from falling over the edge.

To show I'm not only here to ask for help, here's a picture of my current breeding project I started while I was waiting for the Black Widow seeds to arrive, they arrived in the meantime so all is ok. Not going to advertise names as these have nothing todo with Mr. Nice, but I did want to show off my male, which was selected with the help of information found on this forum.




Hoping for loads of response.


Regards,

Bob

 

[Diesel840]

@Bob's Auto's your male has some nice looking pollen sacs. Worry not, I'm sure you'll have more people chime in. Like you said though, selection will be your most important criteria.

Who knows. After you've worked the line long enough, perhaps you could send some to Shanti. If he tested them he'd be able to tell you how closely they resemble his Widow. I recall seeing a post from him where he said he was testing an auto cross that someone on the forum made using Mr. Nice Genes.

Just remember, it's the journey which matters and not the destination. So wnjoy yourself, take pride in the research and work you've done. You're living what many of us only dream about.
Diesel840

Edit: Hey, Bob? How are you selecting the male and female Widow P1's. Are you planning on progeny testing the P1's? If not, you should. Especially with the male, and who better to progeny test the males with than with your selected females?



What you may want to consider doing, is selecting your 3 favorite male and females from the the brand that wins the blind grow, then breed each male to each female and select the two which gives you offspring most resembling your archetype Widow. Otherwise you are much more likely to stack up genes and traits you don't want. If you're willing to dedicate 4-5 years into it, then you should take a bit of time to have the most stable footing, genetics wise for your P1's. After you select a winner among brands you could always run a full pack of them to find the best representation and select the 3 males and females from a larger pool.

I hope this was helpful.
Btw, I'm sure you read how this is what Shanti does. 3 best males to 3 best females then go from there.

Good luck!

 

[Bob's Auto's]

First off all, thanks for taking the time to answer

Hey, Bob? How are you selecting the male and female Widow P1's. Are you planning on progeny testing the P1's? If not, you should. Especially with the male, and who better to progeny test the males with with your selected females?

Well...I'm gonna smoke the male's. Yes!!! Let that sink in for a moment...

Spoiler

After successfully taking clones from all the plants from seed, I'm going to treat all the plants with Ethephon, just before switching to 12/12. What this will do is turn the males, female and turn the females...yup, they stay female, but if you ask me they produce quite a lot more flowers because of the treatment, but that's bro-science for now.
The reason I'm treating all the plants is because the treated plants will shut down for a week while they are changing internally and I'll need to make some changes in the tent's variables to keep them alive during that period. It's easier to keep all the plants at the same regimen, than have differences in height and leaf size...
From then on the tent will be treated as if they were all female. I'll try to keep an eye out for the occasional ball sack and pluck it away, but if one or two escape my keen eye, then so be it. I'll flower all the plants out and after drying, each plant's harvest will get it's own jar to cure in.
Finally the flower will be tested by a panel of undisclosed jurors, who just like me have no idea which cultivar is in which jar. We'll only know the designated number and sex of the flower as there will be three male's and three female's to be selected.

What you may want to consider doing, is selecting your 3 favorite male and females from the the brand rhat wins the blind grow, then breed each male to each female and swlwct the two which gives you offspring most resembling your archetype Widow. Otherwise you are much more likely to stack up genes and traits you don't want. If you're willing to but 4-5 years into it, then you should take a bit of time to have the most stable footing, genetics wise.

That's were three of the four clones come into play. I'll cross each male to the three females and run their genetics out to see what I have.
The fourth clone is used in a open pollination with all the other plants clones, including the ones that didn't get selected by the jurors. Doing this ensures I'll always have all the possible combinations stored genetically for posterity.

Btw, I'm sure you read how this is what Shanti does. 3 best males to 3 best females then go from there.

Yes I did! I'm quite of a fanboy when it comes to old knowledge. Always had lot's of respect for my elders as these people have something today's youngsters don't have...PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE This is why I'm here on this forum asking my questions.

 

[Diesel840]

@Bob's Auto's it sounds like you have a pretty good handle on this.
I know you've selected the male for your auto. What traits will you be looking for when selecting a male of the Widow?

 

[Bob's Auto's]

@Bob's Auto's it sounds like you have a pretty good handle on this.
I know you've selected the male for your auto. What traits will you be looking for when selecting a male of the Widow?

It usually begins with germinating the seeds. If you breed you have plenty of seeds, so I am not shy when germinating them little gems. I usually germinate three times as much than I need. The most vigorous seeds will be selected. In this case I have 38 seeds and 36 spots, so that'll be the first selection. Wish I had more, but it is what it is...
What I do during the grow is put plants together according to height. If there are lot's of pheno's there can be quite the difference in height. So placing them from high to low gives me the advantage of tilting my light so the DLI stays the same for each plant, approx. that is The other advantage of doing this is, I can blindly match my males with my females as they sit beside each other.
From then on I'll be looking for the 1:1.6 ratio between the internodes, checking the stems when I crush them (yup, I do that), and see if they are hollow or solid. Smelling my hands whenever I deal with my plants. ie, Right now, I've got a nice UK Cheese (Skunk) with an amazing onion smell. I've read that this is a smell which could indicate a great specimen, so I marked this one's tags...
Vigor is also something I look for. But when handling F1's there's usually no shortage on vigor. But if there are plants that don't show vigor they will be culled.
The true signs will come when the plants go into flower... Nice compact clusters of flowers indicate a good specimen.
Sometimes if you are lucky the male will produce trichomes on the single leaves emerging from the tops. Now, that's a good sign This is my breeding male in the current project. If you expose your plants to a certain amount of UV light some males will show trichomes

 

[Diesel840]

Right now, I've got a nice UK Cheese (Skunk) with an amazing onion smell. I've read that this is a smell which could indicate a great specimen, so I marked this one's tags

Black Widow is supposed to throw Onion type terps. Perhaps that's where the inion belief came from, Widow is notoriously strong.

Sometimes if you are lucky the male will produce trichomes on the single leaves emerging from the tops. Now, that's a good sign

This is a trait found in the Widow lines. I've seen a pic or two of male Black Widows with nicely frosted sugar leaves.

 

[Bob's Auto's]

Merry Christmas Ya'll

 

[longball]

Happy Holidaze!

 

[musashi]

Love the avatar @Bob's Auto's Merry Christmas!

mu

 

[Swifty]

Merry Christmas Bob!

 

[Rhizome]

Hey Everybody


I'm currently in the preparation for my next project. Creating an as close as possible auto variant of the Widow I knew when I was a teen...
Been reading non stop on this forum and I've learned more in the last days then I did in the last two years playing around. With that knowledge I've thought up the diagram below.
I was wondering if anyone with any insight in breeding could check it out and see if my brain twists makes any sense doing it this way, or if there's a better way of doing things.
Mind you, I'm still learning so any comment is welcome.

Let me continue with explaining my thinking...
Provided I make the right selections at the F2 stage of each line and select the whitest, frostiest plant that flowers under 24/7. ie, an 'Auto'. And then Bx it to it's recurrent parent, I should be able to have 25% chance for the auto trait to appear in the next F2 down the line, right?
Repeating that process another two times should then effectively burn in the genes from the recurrent parent + hopefully as little as possible from the donor parent except for the auto trait, but also bottleneck the cultivar as negative traits can creep in without me noticing for a couple of generations. To overcome this I was thinking of do something, I think @shantibaba has used on occasion...And bring both lines together, first as a hybrid with loads of nicks from the recursive parents creating the first IBL and finally we'll do a sibling cross ending up with a IBL2
View attachment 79612


Many thanks in advance you guys


Regards,

Bob

Very interesting.
Mephisto Wedding I assume is auto ( female only), when you are considering it as male are you thinking to selfie it or do you have access to a Mephisto Auto regular?

Also I am curious using feminised seeds for breeding as I thought they could be a bit genetically unstable for breeding.

Thanks
R

 

[Skuncle Lenny]

Very interesting.
Mephisto Wedding I assume is auto ( female only), when you are considering it as male are you thinking to selfie it or do you have access to a Mephisto Auto regular?

Also I am curious using feminised seeds for breeding as I thought they could be a bit genetically unstable for breeding.

Thanks
R

While I’m no breeder, I feminize the Phenos that I like just for ease, and from experience, I agree with your comment that feminizing result in some instability, and in my case with .
But I’m also only extending one generation, and my understanding is that by doing it a few times you should be able to create stability.

 

[Bob's Auto's]

Everyone enjoying the holiday's so far?

Very interesting.
Mephisto Wedding I assume is auto ( female only), when you are considering it as male are you thinking to selfie it or do you have access to a Mephisto Auto regular?

Also I am curious using feminised seeds for breeding as I thought they could be a bit genetically unstable for breeding.

Thanks
R

Thanks! Mephisto sells only feminized seed. I did get my hands on several Mephisto crosses, all crossed with a regular auto Coal Miner's Daughter from Gnome. This resulted in regular auto crosses for me to play with. I've selected the Mephisto's Wedding because of her white appearance and even though it says on their site that there's no White Widow in it's lineage, it still has loads of "coincidental" similarities, but little to no flavour. But it has a vast population of trichomes covering every part of her buds and sugar leaves. Also Medically, it's cured buds ease my backpains for which I otherwise have to take benzo's... So I (back)crossed a male from the new hybrid with two original Mephisto's Wedding girls. One ending up large and fluffy = no good. And one smaller of size. With rock hard buds, loads of flavour going from fruity to vanilla cream cookies and even menthol. The latter I didn't like to be honest. But not all F1's ended up like that, so there was loads of choices to be made. I inbred several sweet F1's I liked to an F2 and those genetics will be used to autofy the Widows


Also, I've had some serious time over the holidays to get my stone on and read up on a whole lot of books I found online, I start dreaming of what to be...And so I opened up my diagram tool and started all over again. This time having my Punnett calculator right beside me...
If I lay both diagrams beside each other there is a clear difference...

• The left one, being the original genogram I shared in the 1st post, is more concentrated on creating two separate inbred lines, each connected to the original parent. Only at the end both lines are interbred to fixate both genetics into a new line.
• The right genogram is inbreeding both parents, each one after the other. And by doing so, no more creating two separate lines, but having one large mixed pool to choose from, but I suppose there will also be much more variance in this one...

I know this is a very advanced topic and that this knowledge could be classed as "proprietary", but can anyone with the knowledge and experience in breeding (ahum @shantibaba ♥ pretty please) tell me which one would be preferred? And why? Or is there a better way of doing things? Remember, I'm still learning

I would be very much obliged



Regards,

Bob

 

[Diesel840]

Or is there a better way of doing things? Remember, I'm still learning

I think "better" is relative. Depending on your goals and what your willing to do will dictate which is better for you, personally.

Btw, interesting read on your chosen male auto. Nice history.