Fem seeds and there impact on the future of the species known as cannabis.

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Sex chromosomes do not appear suddenly in animals or plants. rather, it is the pair of autosomes bearing the sex determination genes that have evolved specialized features, i.e., the degeneration of the Y chromosome, resulting in heteromorphy that became the hallmark of sex chromosomes. Two major sex chromosome systems have evolved. One is the active Y chromosome system, or the XY system (or ZW in a heterogametic female system), in which females have two of the same kind of sex chromosome (XX), while males have two distinct sex chromosomes (XY). The other is the X-to-autosome (A) balance system, in which the ratio of X:A chromosomes determines sex by an X chromosome counting system and the Y chromosome is dispensable.....

the hypothesis that angiosperms originated from a hermaphroditic ancestor is supported by the prevalence of hermaphrodites among about 72% of all species (Takhtajan, 1969).

diverse mechanisms that evolved to promote outcrossing include temporal separation of the maturation of male or female organs, gametophytic or sporophytic self-incompatibility, structural avoidance, monoecy, and ultimately dioecy.

the first step toward sex chromosome evolution is the occurrence of male sterile or female sterile mutations leading to the development of unisexual flowers,,, such mutations occur frequently and repeatedly in plant species, as demonstrated by the presence of unisexual species in 75% of angiosperm families and numerous male sterile mutants in domesticated crop plants (Yampolsky and Yampolsky, 1922 ; Renner and Ricklefs, 1995). also, stamen and carpel development involve large numbers of genes at various developmental stages, and mutations of any of the many regulatory genes could trigger abortion or loss of function of male and/or female organs (Wellmer et al., 2004),,,,,

in dioecious flowers, male sterile mutation can occur from the early stages of the first appearance of the stamen primordia until the late stages of microspore formation; likewise, female sterility can also occur from early stages of inception of the carpel until the late stage of the formation of microspores (Matsunaga and Kawano, 2001).

unisexual species have sex determination mechanisms ranging from genetic to environmental, but genetic factors play far greater roles. Genetic mechanisms range from a single locus on an autosome to heteromorphic sex chromosomes containing multiple genes involved in sex determination. In some unisexual species, such as hemp, cucumber, and maize, male or female sterility is influenced by environmental factors such as light intensity, day length, temperature, mineral nutrition, and plant hormones (Frankel and Galun, 1977 ; Chailakhyan, 1979 )

cytoplasmic male sterility caused by mutations on the mitochondrial genome is widely used in production of crops that benefit greatly from heterosis, but only nuclear male sterility can trigger sex chromosome evolution...

in plants it is possible to follow both forward and reverse evolution between dioecism and hermaphroditism because dioecious mutants from hermaphrodites and hermaphrodite mutants from the dioecious plants are each occasionally found,,,

different plant species at various stages of sex chromosome evolution provide a time series for examining the forces driving Y chromosome degeneration.

according to the Mulles Rachet Theory the Y used to be an X,,,,its just lost a leg

the Y is the shape it is because once recombination is suppressed around the sex determination region, an incipient Y chromosome starts to differentiate by accumulating deleterious mutations, transposable element insertions, chromosomal rearrangements, and selection for male-specific alleles,,,,

some plant species have recently evolved homomorphic sex chromosomes near the inception of this evolutionary process, while a few other species have sufficiently diverged heteromorphic sex chromosomes.

Rick,

Do you not think it would be better to quote the text or texts that this info is from ? it would help others to form views do you not think ? and you do realise that with the text you have put up it contradicts your own views on X:A ???

Kopite
 
Well, isn't that interesting Cytrax. Anyone got any theories on how this could happen?
N.

Did you ever read about the human "XX" females reversed to males? it was done by Peter goodfellow and his researchers... they attributed it as a small portion of Y incorporated into X and coined the "SRY" region.

Kopite
 
a while back hempy was arguing that "you can't select for traits that aren't already in the genetics of a specimen" ie, you can't select for potency, or calyx colour if the strain doesn't already have individuals in its population that have that potency or colour already. here is something i wrote up last night about directional selection proving this is not the case. you can select for many things that may not already exist in any individual in a specific population of organisms. calyx colour and potency (depending on how high the average is already) can be made more intense or more potent, or less intense/less potent with selection. i hope this simple diagram helps put a few of these arguments to rest.

mud6pj.jpg


have a nice one guys :D
 
ko,,,im sorry bro,,i dont subscribe to the conclushions of that paper your talking about,,,"at the min",,,,,maybe i will in the future but at the min im convinced some form of direct information exists to contradict them assuptions

i did list the full details on that paper earlyer in the thread,,,,but that witch your refering to is my reitteration of the paper,,,,please will you point out where that text contradicts what im generaly saying,,i use that paper all the time to support my ideas...

Sex chromosomes in flowering plants
Ray Ming, Jianping Wang, Paul H. Moore and Andrew H. Paterson
Accepted for publication November 21, 2006
http://www.amjbot.org/cgi/content/full/94/2/141
 
I'm at odds with the fact it can produce balls etc shows it has the mech to do so,
I see the empty male flowers on the GA3 treated NL5 female as something akin to the penis on the female hyena. It looks like the real thing, but it is just hormone induced decoration.
Two recent reports support Weismann's hypothesis; faster evolutionary adaptation was shown in a sexual strain than in an asexual strain of yeast (Goddard et al., 2005 ), and a reduction of deleterious mutations was detected in a sexually reproducing species compared to an asexually reproducing species of water fleas (Paland and Lynch, 2006 )
And this would seem to support the position that Hempy and I have taken.
N.
 
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I see the empty male flowers on the GA3 treated NL5 female as something akin to the penis on the female hyena. It looks like the real thing, but it is just hormone induced decoration.

And this would seem to support the position that Hempy and I have taken.
N.

I agree thats why I don't support the "true female" theory
 
ko,,,im sorry bro,,i dont subscribe to the conclushions of that paper your talking about,,,"at the min",,,,,maybe i will in the future but at the min im convinced some form of direct information exists to contradict them assuptions

i did list the full details on that paper earlyer in the thread,,,,but that witch your refering to is my reitteration of the paper,,,,please will you point out where that text contradicts what im generaly saying,,i use that paper all the time to support my ideas...

Sex chromosomes in flowering plants
Ray Ming, Jianping Wang, Paul H. Moore and Andrew H. Paterson
Accepted for publication November 21, 2006
http://www.amjbot.org/cgi/content/full/94/2/141

rick that paper is just using Ainsworth it doesn't pay any attention to Sako et al etc.... if you look at the diagram you put up earlier you have it at stage 5 ? ie Y plays no part etc.. clearly this is wrong to me as I'd have it at stage 3 ie Y bigger etc...

I'll add this Rick -

Dioecism accompanied by sex chromosome dimorphism is common in animals but less prevalent in plants. Appearance of heteromorphic sex chromosomes is the consequence of the evolution of sex to ensure dioecy and to enforce a 1:1 segregation ratio of male and female individuals. Sex chromosomes have evolved in a limited number of dioecious angiosperms, and only a few have been characterized at the cytological and/or molecular levels (Charlesworth, 2002 ).

STAGES OF SEX CHROMOSOME EVOLUTION

Westergaard (1958) grouped plant sex chromosome into three types illustrating different evolutionary stages. In the first, the most primitive sex chromosome was characterized by the viability of the YY genotype, in which Y differs from X only in the sex determination genes; this condition is represented by Ecballium. The second type is that the YY genotype is inviable, while the Y chromosome plays a decisive role in sex determination; this condition is represented by papaya and white campion. The third type is that the Y chromosome is irrelevant to sex determination and sex is determined through the X–autosome balance; this condition is represented by sorrel (Rumex acetosa) and Japanese hop (Humulus japonicus).

Recent extensive genetic and genomic studies on the male-specific region in these species have led to refined models (Jablonka and Lamb, 1990 ; Charlesworth, 1996 ; Charlesworth and Charlesworth, 2000 ; Charlesworth et al., 2005 ). Based on the most recent data, sex chromosome evolution might be divided into five stages (Fig. 1). (1) A male sterile or a female sterile mutation occurs on a chromosome and recombination is suppressed at this locus and its immediate neighboring region leading to initiation of the degeneration process, but the YY genotype is viable. Asparagus is a good example for this stage. (2) Suppression of recombination spreads to additional linked loci that lead to the degeneration of a small chromosomal region and the formation of a male-specific region on the primitive Y chromosome. The loss of gene content is sufficiently extensive to cause lethality of the YY genotype even though the primitive sex chromosomes still appear to be homomorphic at the cytological level. The papaya sex chromosomes are at this early stage. (3) The accumulation of transposable elements and the duplication within the male-specific region cause the expansion of DNA content on the Y chromosome. The non-recombining region spreads to the majority of the Y chromosome and further degeneration occurs. At this stage, the X and Y chromosomes are heteromorphic, and the Y chromosome is physically larger than the X chromosome. The Silene sex chromosomes possess these properties. (4) Severe degeneration of the Y chromosome causes the loss of function for most genes and this enables deletions of the non-functioning Y chromosome sequences to result in shrinking the Y chromosome in size. There are no known plant sex chromosomes at this stage, but the sex chromosomes in mammals are good examples. It is also possible that some sex chromosome systems would not have this phase of shrinking in size but would continue to expand and degenerate until stage 5 when the Y chromosome got lost. In either case, a small portion of the sex chromosomes is still recombining to keep the X and Y chromosome pair together. (5) Suppression of recombination spreads to the entire Y chromosome. Further reduction in size of the Y chromosome and complete loss of the recombining pseudo-autosomal region occur. The Y chromosome is totally lost and sex determination is controlled by X to autosome ratio. A new Y chromosome might evolve, but it would have no effect on sex determination. Sorrel, Japanese hop, Drosophila, and nematode sex chromosomes are at this stage.

doesn't add up to me Rick, I think most attribute it to this when they SEE a plant reverse or SEE it in a transient effect caused by stress/hormones etc for instance white campion (silene) acts the same. The fact that chim could use a DNA seq to find the males due to the fact they had a Y says all to me -

Kopite
 
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no,,,i beieve we are generaly at stage 3!!!....me an greeninthethumb both agree on this!!!,,,we are firmly at stage 3!!,,,

but i believe we have seen signes of other stages too,,,the SSH x OGKA clone i have first was male then turned female,,,im simply trying to find a logical explanation for this

il have a look at sako et al,,,sounds interesting and ive not read-up on him yet,,,thanks ko,,,,you know i will get there in the end:),,,,

are we still mates:):):);):):)??,,,ya know i love ya!!,,,good to see you back,,,alltho i cant say i like the new username,,id rather see you under a more gracefull username:),,,i think you deserve it:)
 
i also dont subscribe to samS "true female" theory,,,,i think anything that cant produce viable-polen has a sterility mutation,,an most canna is sexualy bipotant,,,

an to be perfectly honest i like it this way,,,i wouldnt want some silly sod taking polen-viability away from my germplasm,,,fuk that:),,,il deal with the maleness "expreshion"

KEEP POLEN VIABILITY ALIVE!!!!,,,,,FUK STERILITY!!
 
no,,,i beieve we are generaly at stage 3!!!....me an greeninthethumb both agree on this!!!,,,we are firmly at stage 3!!,,,

but i believe we have seen signes of other stages too,,,the SSH x OGKA clone i have first was male then turned female,,,im simply trying to find a logical explanation for this

il have a look at sako et al,,,sounds interesting and ive not read-up on him yet,,,thanks ko,,,,you know i will get there in the end:),,,,

are we still mates:):):);):):)??,,,ya know i love ya!!,,,good to see you back,,,alltho i cant say i like the new username,,id rather see you under a more gracefull username:),,,i think you deserve it:)

Because you saw it doesn't mean genetically it changed !!!
 
i think anything that cant produce viable-polen has a sterility mutation
Wasn't it the theory that the sterility mutation gave rise to there being two sexes in the first place? If that's true, why would that be an uncommon occurrence now, as you seem to suggest?
N.
 
This needs further clarification, please state your position.
N.

missionary haha.. with regard to XX plants and the fact they reverse I presume? ie wheres the pollen come from ?

Kopite
 
ko,,,the reason why im saying some canna inderviduals are X/autosome, is so the plant wont need to "geneticly change" inorder to morph into ither sex,,,,when the dossage-ratio system is in action and not the "active Y" ,sexual morphs are able to swing ither way and are mainly enviroment dependant,,im litraly using the X/autosome dosage system to explain my ""male" turned "female" SSHxOGKA"

yeh nev,,,selection can take us towards the direction of sterility mutations o it can take us away,,,apparently the streility mutations actualy caused the divishion of the sexes in the fist place,,,but imo we can select towards ither direction
 
no,,,i beieve we are generaly at stage 3!!!....me an greeninthethumb both agree on this!!!,,,we are firmly at stage 3!!,,,)

Rick I've told you time and time again that looking at these unproven evolutionary theories isn't really going to help you with respect to cannabis. Holding so tightly onto these sort of ideas makes you see true evidence through a lens of your preconceived beliefs. IMO- you should drop this stuff.

However, cannabis DOES look to be in stage 3. So how's it a X:autosome system if it hasn't even evolved beyond stage 3. Looks to be a far cry from X:A IMO.

There's male markers, cannabis isn't a reptile where the envirnoment can swing your sex ratios. Notice how you get half males no matter what you do?



Nevil:

Can EVERY plant grow pods? If not, would you say there's truer females and true females?

I first heard the term true female used by Sam and he used it to describe some clones he had that couldn't reverse at all. Wouldn't produce pods, wouldn't do anything. And we're talking about through hormone treatments, not just by stress. Again, I haven't seen them so who knows. But there could be sexual differentiation genes on the autosomes and maybe most every plant has the ability to produce pods. Some will get activated by stress to varying degrees and they all are what i term intersex cannabis. Others don't have a mechanism at all. Others may have the mechanism of reversal but have different sterility mutations or are lacking the ability to produce pollen.
 
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i agree with everything your saying Green,,,your 100% spoton!!,,,

im just saying.... "male`s can evolve from a feminized seed"...

that just blows my mind
 
There's male markers, cannabis isn't a reptile where the envirnoment can swing your sex ratios. Notice how you get half males no matter what you do?

I've found that very high temps during the early stages of growth can give a high ratio of males, seen it several times - high temps like 35-40C resulted in three quarters of the seedlings being male. However, without studying sexual expression of seedlings in controlled conditions as a proper experiment, I can't be sure on that, but the anecdotal evidence I've seen suggests temp can have an effect.

im just saying.... "male`s can evolve from a feminized seed"...

I don't think it's possible to say that with any degree of certainty, you might have had a clone turn out male, and Rockster claims he had the same thing happen with a Cheese S1 cutting, but until someone studies it properly in a scientific experiment with the resources to do controlled experiments on fair population numbers then it just isn't proven one way or the other.
 
Most of this discussion is way over my head, but I am learning heaps from what is being posted. I am also very grateful that most of the posts are in "lay terms" so I can follow.
Thanks guys.
 
GreenintheThumb- "There's male markers, cannabis isn't a reptile where the envirnoment can swing your sex ratios. Notice how you get half males no matter what you do?"

I have NOT noticed this. I typically get 70% females and 30% males from seeds under good environmental conditions. I have also found stressing the taproot with shallower containers seems to produce more males then when I use larger drink cups. Just my observation.

KB 8)~~
 
GreenintheThumb- "There's male markers, cannabis isn't a reptile where the envirnoment can swing your sex ratios. Notice how you get half males no matter what you do?"

I have NOT noticed this. I typically get 70% females and 30% males from seeds under good environmental conditions. I have also found stressing the taproot with shallower containers seems to produce more males then when I use larger drink cups. Just my observation.

KB 8)~~

I am with you on that one mate, shallow cups or containers will give you more males.
Temps also influence your percentage......but like you I always get between 70%-80% females.
 
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