Fem seeds and there impact on the future of the species known as cannabis.

[GreenintheThumb]

So you ganna be getting those new "femminized" MNS releases?

"Anyhow got something coming out for the pain management people...

If you follow anything about the medical marijuana concept and how the name is bounded around nowadays you would think that all cannabis is a long lost medicine for all ailments. But what actually constitutes a strain to be medical? Considering the varietals of indica and sativa are not even recognised in any botanical forum to date, in categorization medical mj is a whole new concept of 4D baseball...

However I have been a part of a small active group of breeders and scientists trying to come up with a seed for the home grower that could be classified as this. We will come out with in in 6 weeks both regular and femminized versions and MNS will be affiliating itself with another seed company who contributed a large proportion of the work to almost complete a 2 year project. We are called the CBD crew and more than this I can not say at this moment until all things are ready. But I believe with a little more help from the community here we will define the constraints for a strain to medical.

Stay tuned all the best Sb "

 

[Kangativa]

Fun time lol.


Blue girl

Blue girl reversed

___________________________________________________________________

Blue girl reversed

+
Cali girl

=

Lol....Ok Jesse what are you on tonight

 

[kylebroflovski]

So you ganna be getting those new "femminized" MNS releases?

"Anyhow got something coming out for the pain management people...

If you follow anything about the medical marijuana concept and how the name is bounded around nowadays you would think that all cannabis is a long lost medicine for all ailments. But what actually constitutes a strain to be medical? Considering the varietals of indica and sativa are not even recognised in any botanical forum to date, in categorization medical mj is a whole new concept of 4D baseball...

However I have been a part of a small active group of breeders and scientists trying to come up with a seed for the home grower that could be classified as this. We will come out with in in 6 weeks both regular and femminized versions and MNS will be affiliating itself with another seed company who contributed a large proportion of the work to almost complete a 2 year project. We are called the CBD crew and more than this I can not say at this moment until all things are ready. But I believe with a little more help from the community here we will define the constraints for a strain to medical.

Stay tuned all the best Sb "

Did you pay Shanti for the space for this advertisement?

LOL Jesse

That'sOneScarySetOfBlueBalls,

KB 8)_~

 

[GreenintheThumb]

So what are those non 1:1's your growing? I'd say MNS would appreciate the advertisement...wait, do they only have 1:1's? I hope that didn't stop you from purchasing

 

[kylebroflovski]

I don't think it would be wise to list exactly what I have or have not grown in the past present or future. This stoner-gate thing has me real worried, but you probably do not give a s&!+ because you do not procure your germplasm from closet breeders.

"Operation seed merchant" seems plausible after seeing how some people keep attempting to trash this thread. (sarcastic font) I'm not referring to you GitT.

So I think people are now saying something to the effect that xxy is an intersex individual (like many of the MNSForum guys have been saying all along, my closet breeding self included, patting self on back).

And now the latest studies/reports are indicating that (I may have this wrong please tell me if I'am) apparently the Y chromosome is in fact critical in the production of pollen. Which touches on what I was rudimentarily explaining when I was saying that the Y probably has certain critical bits of info the plant needs to survive (like producing pollen). Damn I'm two for two. High fives being shared by the closet breeders crew.

Well this is very interesting Chimera.
To see if I've got it right now; It was the MADC sequence, essentially a TE remnant in the cannabis genome located only on the Y, is what caused the differentiation of an X chromosome into a Y chromosome. So this MADC sequence is what caused cannabis to have two sexes? The sequence not being mobile means that it is always found on the Y chromosome. Doesn't that imply that pollen will only be produced in the presence of the Y chromosome? I'd like to be sure that I understand this properly as it seems to be the heart of the discussion.
N

And then Nevil explains this in fairly simple terms for us stupid closet breeders. Thanks for lighting the way Nevil. And then Darwin offered some
interesting additions to the topic as well. Overall really an illuminating/informative thread on seeds and responsible seed breeders and not so responsible breeders with corporate/personal interests in their hearts.

KB

 

[gobshite]

So I think people are now saying something to the effect that xxy is an intersex individual (like many of the MNSForum guys have been saying all along, my closet breeding self included, patting self on back).

KB

sorry to rain on your parade.

The chromosome number of Cannabis sativa is generally accepted (2n=20). Even if a XX/XY
mechanism is accepted to control the sex of diploid dioecious varieties, the Y chromosome role is not
certainly established. In the experiments on hemp polyploids - forms which raise special problems -
Warmke and Davidson, 1944, Rizet, 1946, Nishiyama et al., 1947, and Takenawa, 1953 found that
individuals with XXY and XXXY formula are females.

http://www.bio.uaic.ro/publicatii/a...d/2007_VIII_f2/2007_Anale_GBM_VIII_f2_l07.pdf

 

[gobshite]

Plant Mol Biol. 2000 Dec;44(6):723-32.
Site-specific accumulation of a LINE-like retrotransposon in a sex chromosome of the dioecious plant Cannabis sativa.

Sakamoto K, Ohmido N, Fukui K, Kamada H, Satoh S.

Institute of Biological Sciences, University of Tsukuba, Ibaraki, Japan.
Abstract

Male-associated DNA sequences were analysed in hemp (Cannabis sativa L.), a dioecious plant with heteromorphic sex chromosomes. A male-associated DNA sequence in C. sativa (MADC1) and its flanking sequence encoded a reverse transcriptase that was strongly homologous to those of LINE-like retrotransposons from various plants and other organisms, as well as another open reading frame (ORF). Fluorescence in situ hybridization (FISH) with MADC1 as probe, which yielded strong signals specific for male genomic DNA in gel blot analysis, generated a clear doublet signal at the end of the long arm of the Y chromosome. FISH using pachytene chromosomes of pollen mother cells at meiotic prophase I revealed that pairing of X and Y chromosomes occurred at the short arm of the Y chromosome where MADC1 was not present. Furthermore, FISH using extended DNA fibers, with MADC1 and its flanking DNA as probes, revealed that 100 to 200 copies of the retrotransposon were located in tandem on the Y chromosome. These results support the hypothesis that accumulation of a specific LINE-like retrotransposon at the terminal region of the long arm of the Y chromosome might be one cause of heteromorphism of sex chromosomes.

PMID: 11202435 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Genome. 2005 Oct;48(5):931-6.
RAPD markers encoding retrotransposable elements are linked to the male sex in Cannabis sativa L.

Sakamoto K, Abe T, Matsuyama T, Yoshida S, Ohmido N, Fukui K, Satoh S.

Plant Function Laboratory, The Institute of Physical and Chemical Research, Saitama, Japan. ksaka@taka.jaeri.go.jp
Abstract

Male-associated DNA sequences were analyzed in Cannabis sativa L. (hemp), a dioecious plant with heteromorphic sex chromosomes. DNA was isolated from male and female plants and subjected to random amplified polymorphic DNA analysis. Of 120 primers, 17 yielded 400 to 1500-bp fragments detectable in male, but not female, plants. These fragments were cloned and used as probes in gel-blot analysis of genomic DNA. When male and female DNA was hybridized with 2 of these male-specific fragments, MADC(male-associated DNA sequences in C. sativa)3 and MADC4, particularly intense bands specific to male plants were detected in addition to bands common to both sexes. The MADC3 and MADC4 sequences were shown to encode gag/pol polyproteins of copia-like retrotransposons. Fluorescence in situ hybridization with MADC3 and MADC4 as probes revealed a number of intense signals on the Y chromosome as well as dispersed signals on all chromosomes. The gel-blot analysis and fluorescence in situ hybridization results presented here support the hypothesis that accumulation of retrotransposable elements on the Y chromosome might be 1 cause of heteromorphism of sex chromosomes.
Forward Message

I presume this is why Y is larger.. as the MADC3 and MADC4 are copying over numerous times ?

 

[kylebroflovski]

SinglePostMember (EDIT TwoPostMember) quoting an abstract

"The chromosome number of Cannabis sativa is generally accepted (2n=20). Even if a XX/XY
mechanism is accepted to control the sex of diploid dioecious varieties, the Y chromosome role is not
certainly established. In the experiments on hemp polyploids - forms which raise special problems -
Warmke and Davidson, 1944, Rizet, 1946, Nishiyama et al., 1947, and Takenawa, 1953 found that
individuals with XXY and XXXY formula are females."

I do not know cause I never had botany in college. But generally in many sciences the findings of the 40's, and 50's conflict with science since computers.

If I'am wrong it's okay too.
All that means is I learned something new.

KB _~

 

[kylebroflovski]

Looks like I'm counting trolls to fall asleep. Good night all.

KB _~

 

[gobshite]

SinglePostMember quoting an abstract

The chromosome number of Cannabis sativa is generally accepted (2n=20). Even if a XX/XY
mechanism is accepted to control the sex of diploid dioecious varieties, the Y chromosome role is not
certainly established. In the experiments on hemp polyploids - forms which raise special problems -
Warmke and Davidson, 1944, Rizet, 1946, Nishiyama et al., 1947, and Takenawa, 1953 found that
individuals with XXY and XXXY formula are females.

I do not know cause I never had botany in college. But generally in many sciences the findings of the 40's, and 50's conflict with science since computers.

If I'am wrong it's okay too.
All that means is I learned something new.

KB _~

I was here before, but JessE decided I was someone else ie Hoosier (but I see I'm not the only one to be accused of being someone else!! what a friendly atmosphere... ), which to put frankly is horseshit. the paper its from is from circa 2007 though that bit is based on work from 50's I think.. I'm not here to say things are facts I'm here to learn and see whats what... personally I don't thinks its an easy topic as theres many variables...

it would seem to confirm you have males you need to look past them just having balls etc they are often masquerading, so perhaps we should be testing and making sure when males are used that they are males! just like we do with females.

I think these are some of the forms we often see in females

a. bearing exclusively female flowers = normal dioecious female
b. bearing female and androgynous flowers = androgynous female
c.bearing female ,androgynous and male flowers = androgynous monoecious
d. bearing male and female flowers = monoecious
e.bearing exclusively androgynous flowers = androgynous form belonging to female habit series; and
f.feminized male plant bearing exclusively male flowers.( dioecious feminized male )

but you know what they say kopites are gobshites.

@ KB but perhaps what they observed was a male (or inconsistant male- masquerading) IMO perhaps like Rath suggests genes on the autosome with masculizing or feminizing effects. (Silene is the plant they have studied the most but they are still unsure on that I think ??? )

Ps. I realise I'm not welcome, especially since I post up links etc to support some facts, seem I'd be better just typing up nosense or some pictures that substantiate nothing.

 

[EnglishSpringerSpaniel]

So what exactly is the issue with a hybrid from a 1:1 mating? Even if you had a room with several distinct males, each gland on each female accepts one pollen input, right? So each individual seed is the result of 1:1 mating. I understand that you keep more diversity in the overall genepool, but isn't that more important for landrace/IBL strains? I don't understand the apprehension when it comes to hybrids.

ESS

 

[englishrick]

Sex chromosomes do not appear suddenly in animals or plants. rather, it is the pair of autosomes bearing the sex determination genes that have evolved specialized features, i.e., the degeneration of the Y chromosome, resulting in heteromorphy that became the hallmark of sex chromosomes. Two major sex chromosome systems have evolved. One is the active Y chromosome system, or the XY system (or ZW in a heterogametic female system), in which females have two of the same kind of sex chromosome (XX), while males have two distinct sex chromosomes (XY). The other is the X-to-autosome (A) balance system, in which the ratio of X:A chromosomes determines sex by an X chromosome counting system and the Y chromosome is dispensable.....

the hypothesis that angiosperms originated from a hermaphroditic ancestor is supported by the prevalence of hermaphrodites among about 72% of all species (Takhtajan, 1969).

diverse mechanisms that evolved to promote outcrossing include temporal separation of the maturation of male or female organs, gametophytic or sporophytic self-incompatibility, structural avoidance, monoecy, and ultimately dioecy.

the first step toward sex chromosome evolution is the occurrence of male sterile or female sterile mutations leading to the development of unisexual flowers,,, such mutations occur frequently and repeatedly in plant species, as demonstrated by the presence of unisexual species in 75% of angiosperm families and numerous male sterile mutants in domesticated crop plants (Yampolsky and Yampolsky, 1922 ; Renner and Ricklefs, 1995). also, stamen and carpel development involve large numbers of genes at various developmental stages, and mutations of any of the many regulatory genes could trigger abortion or loss of function of male and/or female organs (Wellmer et al., 2004),,,,,

in dioecious flowers, male sterile mutation can occur from the early stages of the first appearance of the stamen primordia until the late stages of microspore formation; likewise, female sterility can also occur from early stages of inception of the carpel until the late stage of the formation of microspores (Matsunaga and Kawano, 2001).

unisexual species have sex determination mechanisms ranging from genetic to environmental, but genetic factors play far greater roles. Genetic mechanisms range from a single locus on an autosome to heteromorphic sex chromosomes containing multiple genes involved in sex determination. In some unisexual species, such as hemp, cucumber, and maize, male or female sterility is influenced by environmental factors such as light intensity, day length, temperature, mineral nutrition, and plant hormones (Frankel and Galun, 1977 ; Chailakhyan, 1979 )

cytoplasmic male sterility caused by mutations on the mitochondrial genome is widely used in production of crops that benefit greatly from heterosis, but only nuclear male sterility can trigger sex chromosome evolution...

in plants it is possible to follow both forward and reverse evolution between dioecism and hermaphroditism because dioecious mutants from hermaphrodites and hermaphrodite mutants from the dioecious plants are each occasionally found,,,

different plant species at various stages of sex chromosome evolution provide a time series for examining the forces driving Y chromosome degeneration.

according to the Mulles Rachet Theory the Y used to be an X,,,,its just lost a leg

the Y is the shape it is because once recombination is suppressed around the sex determination region, an incipient Y chromosome starts to differentiate by accumulating deleterious mutations, transposable element insertions, chromosomal rearrangements, and selection for male-specific alleles,,,,

some plant species have recently evolved homomorphic sex chromosomes near the inception of this evolutionary process, while a few other species have sufficiently diverged heteromorphic sex chromosomes.

 

[englishrick]

So what exactly is the issue with a hybrid from a 1:1 mating? Even if you had a room with several distinct males, each gland on each female accepts one pollen input, right? So each individual seed is the result of 1:1 mating. I understand that you keep more diversity in the overall genepool, but isn't that more important for landrace/IBL strains? I don't understand the apprehension when it comes to hybrids.

ESS

1:1 mating is a shurefire way to limit a seedlines capabilitys,,,,1:1 might be cool for indoor or 1 particular niche,,,but a 1:1 might be missing the abilty to survive outdoors,,,

imo "resistance" is the first thing that gets thrown out the window with 1:1 matings

 

[Nevil]

I'm not sure what position you are trying to support with that text Rick.
N.

 

[EnglishSpringerSpaniel]

1:1 mating is a shurefire way to limit a seedlines capabilitys,,,,1:1 might be cool for indoor or 1 particular niche,,,but a 1:1 might be missing the abilty to survive outdoors,,,

imo "resistance" is the first thing that gets thrown out the window with 1:1 matings

But isn't the point of hybridization to enhance certain factors, i.e. more resin, a certain flavor, effect, structure, etc? Like I said, it makes perfect sense for maintaining landraces and such, but I still don't see the point of dismissing a hybrid because it is 1:1.

As for resistance, isn't that what progeny testing is for? If you lose some necessary resistance in the progeny of your 1:1 mating, you change one or both of your mates and try again.

ESS

 

[kylebroflovski]

So what exactly is the issue with a hybrid from a 1:1 mating? Even if you had a room with several distinct males, each gland on each female accepts one pollen input, right? So each individual seed is the result of 1:1 mating. I understand that you keep more diversity in the overall genepool, but isn't that more important for landrace/IBL strains? I don't understand the apprehension when it comes to hybrids.

ESS

Hello friend!,

I think you answered your own question. Diversity.

Many people want their seed all the same, I do not. IMO no matter how teriffic a breeder is he can not make one stable plant that suits everybodys individual/medical needs.

My needs as a medical cannabis patient fluctuate throughout the day, so it is nice for me if I have grown a few potent females from seeds with varying phenos/genos that address different symptoms throughout my day/night.

It seems the focus in breeding lately has become stabilizing seeds. IMO this focus on making seed varieties consistent is a result of legal issues and the "elite" idea. People are expecting to plant a seed of an elite variety like "Bubba Kush" and have it look identical to the pix they see on the net after popping 3 beans, as well as sharing other characteristics with the "elite."

IMO seed breeders of the past were not so limited on their end results. Many welcomed diversity as long as each generation was improved in the way the breeder wished. The plants did not have to be such a specific expression of a certain phenotype as seed makers are trying to make today. Just my opinion.

KB _~

 

[englishrick]

nev,,,its not exactly a "position",,,its more like a buch of facts laid out for people who dont undersand what we are talking about,,,,if you dont agree with some of it please pick it out and pull me on it


ESS

bro,,,have you ever seen a seedline turn to sh1t? and wonderd WHY it happend,,,ive seen it happen with UK outdoor varieties,,,some very close friends of mine do the outdoor thing in the UK and they were desperate to make there own seeds,,,,,soon enough everything they had turned to sh1t

emagine you have 1 seed batch,,,,,,,,, 1 batch of seeds to last you a lifetime,,,,1 batch of seeds for every possible enviroment that your plants might encounter,,,1 batch of seeds to create a sustainble population for the future,,,,,

would you use 1:1 matings?

lets say you are breeding indoors and allways from seed,,,if you continualy breed in an niche enviroment devoid of mold,,,how would you breed for future mold resistance?

.....low Ne numbers have a massive effect on the sustainability of a seedline,,,without the apropreate Ne numbers we may aswell accept extintion as an enevitability


il be damed if i let my beloved herb head to extintion

 

[englishrick]

removing divercity is like removing jenga blocks,,,,,the jenga can hold itself up with missing blocks or even with extra blocks ontop of the initial structure,,, but sooner or later removing the blocks lowers the towers ability to absorb shock,,,,simply adding blocks to the top only decreeses stabilty even more

 

[EnglishSpringerSpaniel]

nev,,,its not exactly a "position",,,its more like a buch of facts laid out for people who dont undersand what we are talking about,,,,if you dont agree with some of it please pick it out and pull me on it


ESS

bro,,,have you ever seen a seedline turn to sh1t? and wonderd WHY it happend,,,ive seen it happen with UK outdoor varieties,,,some very close friends of mine do the outdoor thing in the UK and they were desperate to make there own seeds,,,,,soon enough everything they had turned to sh1t

emagine you have 1 seed batch,,,,,,,,, 1 batch of seeds to last you a lifetime,,,,1 batch of seeds for every possible enviroment that your plants might encounter,,,1 batch of seeds to create a sustainble population for the future,,,,,

would you use 1:1 matings?

lets say you are breeding indoors and allways from seed,,,if you continualy breed in an niche enviroment devoid of mold,,,how would you breed for future mold resistance?

.....low Ne numbers have a massive effect on the sustainability of a seedline,,,without the apropreate Ne numbers we may aswell accept extintion as an enevitability


il be damed if i let my beloved herb head to extintion

So your arguments against 1:1 hybrids are

a) Some friends tried to make seed once outdoor and they fared poorly.

b) If you only have one seedline to work with for the rest of your life, you wouldn't want to use 1:1 matings.

c) if you have a good indoor breeding environment, you won't know if you are losing mold/pest resistance in your outdoor strains because it doesn't exist in your environment.

I don't want to offend, but these seem like really weak arguments to me.

In the case of your friends, maybe they should have tested multiple males in separate fields instead of putting all their eggs in one basket. Like I mentioned before, if you have a bad combination from a 1:1 mating, you try different inputs...it's not rocket science. Now, if you are foolish enough to roll the dice on next year's crop based on the unkown viability of a single male you picked this season, that's not the fault of 1:1 hybridization, but of human presumptiveness.

As for the "if you only have one seedline for the rest of your life" angle, it's pretty much irrelevant. None of us here suffer from that limitation. Also, like I said earlier (did you read my post?), open pollenation makes complete sense for landraces and IBLs (read: single stabilized seed lines). So clearly I agree with your point, even though it is sort of non-sequitur to our current discussion.

As for the third point, you're 'poisoning the well' argumentatively by setting up the hypothetical 1:1 mating situation to be a failure. Sure, if you want to keep resistances to outdoor nuisances in the strains you are breeding/maintaining, then doing 1:1 hybridization (and I guess progeny testing) in an indoor environment is pretty dumb. However, doing 1:1 hybridization in your outdoor environment and testing the resulting progeny in the same environment seems completely reasonable to me.

ESS

 

[EnglishSpringerSpaniel]

removing divercity is like removing jenga blocks,,,,,the jenga can hold itself up with missing blocks or even with extra blocks ontop of the initial structure,,, but sooner or later removing the blocks lowers the towers ability to absorb shock,,,,simply adding blocks to the top only decreeses stabilty even more

Aren't genes both lost and created during the hybridization process? Or did I misread something somewhere?

ESS