Fem seeds and there impact on the future of the species known as cannabis.

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reverse hermies or intersexed males
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It's a good example Gobshite. You say that you used it, what were the results?
The resin also denotes a certain "girlishness". It's not a Skunk is it?
I'd call it for a heavily masculinised intersex female.
N.
 
Nevil said:
It's a good example Gobshite. You say that you used it, what were the results?
The resin also denotes a certain "girlishness". It's not a Skunk is it?
I'd call it for a heavily masculinised intersex female.
N.
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The results were a higher percentage of females and intersex females. i put this down to either intersex aspect being passed on or the fact it wasn't a male as such but like you say a fem/intersex masquarading? the strain was LSD from bog which I think contains a bit of skunk somewhere in it!.

Kopite
 
????

I've just encountered some worrying numbers albeit on a mini scale with regard to some genetics & more worrying still is that these genetics were aquired from a previously highly credible outlet, serious seeds

Upon finding what i'll explain in a moment i thought to myself, where can i get some answers on this?, i immediately thought of this thread & to seek some reason from the knowledgeable & experienced growers that have frequented this thread

It's strangely coincidental that the questions i'm about to ask are somehow relevant to the most recent posts regarding 70% ratios of females that are possibly due to inter sexed parents being used rather than true breeding parents that are 100% male or female(that is if i've followed the conversation correctly)

Bubblegum, from a single packet there has been 7 females, there was also a female that showed inter sexed traits at 2-3 weeks of the bloom cycle, both males were kept & allowed to drop pollen, the males dropped pollen but as there were other males slightly behind in maturity i decided to let the males continue to drop pollen, these same males have then showed female pistils, i could have easily have used this pollen & been unaware of the inter sexed traits had i not let these plants run their course

Chronic, from a very small run of 5 seeds, 3 were male, 1 of the males was weak & culled & the other 2 males were allowed to run their course like the bubblegum & others, like the bubblegum the chronic dropped pollen showing only male sexual expression yet when left to run their course they too have shown inter sexed female pistils

To clear up any uncertainty on the conditions & environment, i do have males in the same space that have remained true, some look better than others with regard to colour & trichome production but they have remained true, so i dont believe its an environmental factor as in the same area i'm running sour lines that are well known for containing inter sexed genetics, in short i believe that if the conditions were incorrect other lines that im aware of would have been first to show their inter sexed expression

What i'm keen to learn is, with these recessive showing inter sexed males, if the pollen was actually used, would the offspring produce a higher % of females with the remaining % made up of males & herm genes or is it just a complete clusterfuck?

Is it possible that breeders have been collecting pollen too early & have spread inter sexed genetics unknowingly?

Is this linked to some growers reporting a higher than 50/50 ration of females to males?

My initial thought was that i want nothing to do with these hermy males, but, before i cull them i thought it best to check with the members here that have more experience with seed making & parental selection, to understand if these late showing inter sexed males are of any value?

I must admit i do find this worrying with regard to quality control as serious seeds had a solid reputation that seems to be losing credibility when considering many reports of less than stellar plants being produced from their seeds, they were a solid company a few years back & were highly praised & regarded, its a shame to see things have changed

I hope somebody can share their thoughts on what i've witnessed & offer some advice, its entirely possible that males do have more tendency to display inter sexed genes than females & that females usually show inter sexed expression earlier than a male, its possible as i dont know enough to dispute this, but it would seem odd considering males are usually the first to display any sexual expression


I know the numbers i've used are extremely small & may only represent some poor luck on my part, i may have the only seeds out of a whole batch that display these traits, however from 2 separate lines from the same breeder this has me puzzled

Thanks for reading & thanks in advance for any advice that collectively the board may offer
 
What i'm keen to learn is, with these recessive showing inter sexed males, if the pollen was actually used, would the offspring produce a higher % of females with the remaining % made up of males & herm genes or is it just a complete clusterfuck?

Is it possible that breeders have been collecting pollen too early & have spread inter sexed genetics unknowingly?
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I'm looking at this as what I have seen is directly different to that of gerrit of Magnus genetics, he has used such males and seen no inter sex plants in the progeny,, how far down the line he has looked i'm unsure, but if recessive the I don't think you'd see it in the progeny but it would still be there.
 
So best to avoid then ?

I must have been writing when you posted your photo, the males that i have are producing a lot more pistils than the male u have used & shown, i dont know if this has any bearing on these plants & that what i have are more problematic/hermy than yours?

I dont know if recessive is the correct term, but what i was trying to describe was something that was late to show & for a certain period actually hidden within the genetics

Thanks for the reply
 
The results were a higher percentage of females and intersex females. i put this down to either intersex aspect being passed on or the fact it wasn't a male as such but like you say a fem/intersex masquarading
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Exactly my point. I'd venture to say that the expression of male characteristics in intersex types may be influenced by environment and that this is largely determined by conditions at germination. If conditions are suitable, the intersex genes can be switched off, and that becomes generally locked in for the life of the plant.
It may also be, as Hempy postulates, that mating the latent intersex plant with a true male, inhibits/repairs the intersex gene.
N.
 
Engelbert_Humperdinck said:
So best to avoid then ?

I must have been writing when you posted your photo, the males that i have are producing a lot more pistils than the male u have used & shown, i dont know if this has any bearing on these plants & that what i have are more problematic/hermy than yours?

I dont know if recessive is the correct term, but what i was trying to describe was something that was late to show & for a certain period actually hidden within the genetics

Thanks for the reply
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I feel theres a distinct dif between those that show late and others. also that pics v early it put them out all over in full bloom.
 
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gobshite said:
I feel theres a distinct dif between those that show late and others. also that pics v early it put them out all over in full bloom.
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So do you feel that a male that displays this earlier is of less use than a male that expresses later?

But best to avoid using as a pollen source to reduce the % of intersex genes in the offspiring?

Thanks kopite
 
Can anyone explain what "intersex" means with regards to the male to fem ratio? I am struggling to keep up at the back here!!

Possibly just "Intersex"
 
i'm using the term intersex the same way we would use the term hermaphrodite, not a single sex plant
 
Engelbert_Humperdinck said:
i'm using the term intersex the same way we would use the term hermaphrodite, not a single sex plant
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So were talking about pollen from plant that has shown hermaphrodite tendencies or intersexualuality? (if thats even a word)

I thought that was a big no-no in breeding or is that only if its on the female side?
 
Doobz said:
So were talking about pollen from plant that has shown hermaphrodite tendencies or intersexualuality? (if thats even a word)

I thought that was a big no-no in breeding or is that only if its on the female side?
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to me its a no no though I did this as an experiment, i believe its heritable some don't!.

my interest at the mo stems from this discusion and one i've been having with Gerrit.. this may explain my thoughts better!.



Greetings Gerrit,

Firstly with regards to your English it is probably better than mine!!!...
With regards to the different results & a correlation between sexual instability in males/ female populations I personally find it to hold true for both sexes I personally think if it’s intersexed its interesexed so I’d say regardless of sex they fall under the same genes/response mech.

As you pointed to the fact that the “males” spontaneously did this showing of pistils and needed no pressure whatsoever & only did it with this strain “LSD” (it was DJ’s musings that led me to use these “males” though my head said ditch it)

I will try as best I can to answer some of your questions:

• In the seeds I didn’t have any of the females used show any inter sexual expression and I used the biggest, tastiest, healthiest for pollen receivers, only one of the males used was stable in any sense of the word and from memory I used 2 of the “backward hermie males” but there was a def upswing/correlation in relation to the fems/herms in the progeny.
• I saw as mentioned a definite upswing shift in the amount of females and herms (intersexed). The only thing I could come up with in regard to this is that these “males” did not produce a “Y” pollen but more of “X” or perhaps the intersex type that some refer to as “Xm” (galouch 77). The only other thought I had would be that the female receiver actively selects the pollen it wants to maintain equilibrium in a population!!.(or as an after thought perhaps the males where degenerate in some way?)
• I wholeheartedly agree in the mech for sexual determination is generic and IMO of the X/Y type most likely with autosomal modifiers that act with certain triggers.
• I have recently started to do a lot more test for hormonal/environmental stress after I had a plant I thought was stable enough go nannertastic on me. (I should have tested more S1’s)… (Out of interest do you reverse and self the males you use?)
• As to “true” females/males I go with the idea of none such thing just different levels of stability.
• I hold cannabis to be subdioecious in its nature therefore containing inter sexual specimens, perhaps these “males” are something masquerading and hiding their identity?
• Like you I think every plant can reverse.
• I started to look at other dioecious angiosperms mostly the likes of Silene where a single Y can suppress XXX (like some suggest with cannabis), but I found that Silene differs to cannabis as it does not reverse whatsoever.
• I then looked at Mercury Allis (???) which can reverse to see if there’s anything sim going on, I found most dioecious angiosperms had sim mechs but all differed slightly to each other.


Re: sexual stability or lability of cannabis.

Perhaps lability offers an adaptive advantage? I think I’m right to say that only 4 dioecious fams have heteromorphic sex chromosomes (thus related but evolved independently of each other).. and that they all differ but have certain things in common mostly the promotion of outcrossing.. While I agree that cannabis is sexually labile I don’t go with it being X:A whatsoever.

My conclusions –

Clearly dioecious species have things in common, however I don’t think anyone fully understands what happens with regard to the sexual aspect. I like the idea that with FISH (fluorescent in situ hybridization) you can pluck males from a population.
I feel with regard to intersexual plants that they can pass on this trait and therefore it is something I select away from and within a crop not something I want.
I support selfing as a tool to help breeders and feel theres many benefits to it, I’m also a believer in gynoecious releases as well as reg releases, not one or the other. I feel we should actively manipulate this crop we use as best we can just like we have with every other crop on the planet!.
So whereas I now select away from anything showing intersexual signs I see you have used these specimens which intrigues me, have you taken the line a few gens and never seen any intersexual plants at all? My thinking would be that if it was recessive you wouldn’t be fully seeing it?!?.

Anyway this will probably be edited when I read it back. But heres a list of articles where I gathered some of the info I have formed, but like yourself Gerrit this are just my thoughts and not gospel.

1. Boys and girls come out to play – ainsworth
2. The evolution and function of Styler polymorphisms in flowering plants – Spencer C barrett.
3. Sex chromosomes in flowering plants – Ray ming Et al.
4. Reproductive systems & evolution in vascular plants – Kent E holsinger.
5. Sex allocation: evolution to and from dioecy - ????
6. Trait selection in flowring plants – Lynda F delph
7. Some aspects of sex determination in hemp – Elena Truta.
8. The role of repetitive DNA in structure and evolution of sex chromosomes in plants – E kejnousky et al.
9. Dioecious plants: a key to the early events of sex chromosome evolution – Ioan negrutiu
10. Major evolutionary transitions in flowering plant reproduction – spencer C barrett
11. The cost of males – John Maynard Smith
12. Enviromental influence on primary sex ratio in dioecious plants – Spencer C Barrett
13. Steps in the environmental of sex chromosomes – B and D Charlesworth.
14. Sexual conflict in plants – Ng Prasad & S bedhomme
15. Sex determination in flowering plants – Stephan L dellaporta et al
16. Sex determining mechanisims in land plants – Miles Tanurdzic & Jo ann banks
17. Sex inheritance in a gynodioecious species: a polygeneric view – Ethler et al.
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http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=192711
 
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Nevil said:
Exactly my point. I'd venture to say that the expression of male characteristics in intersex types may be influenced by environment and that this is largely determined by conditions at germination. If conditions are suitable, the intersex genes can be switched off, and that becomes generally locked in for the life of the plant.
It may also be, as Hempy postulates, that mating the latent intersex plant with a true male, inhibits/repairs the intersex gene.
N.
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Only if it needs repairing maybe its not defective but a built in mech for something...
 
Thanks for posting that kopite, on a basic level(that's where i'm at) i agree with your theory, its the same hypothosis that i had when thinking that these late showing intersexed males would have a higher % of female & intersexed genes than males that stayed male in a natural environment, prominent herm's are also something that i'd like to work away from & instead i'd like to work with parents that are more stable & less likely to throw out intersexed offspring & genes
 
mr. e humperdinck, serious seeds is a poor place for someone to get a handle on hermy/intersex questions. simon has fooled with ak47 to the point where i dont believe he can now produce the original in seed form? and most of this mess began with the pursuit of fem lines however, this is the first post where i ever heard that bubblegum was also on the endangered list?

why does shit like this happen? did simon get bored? in spite of being a smallish breeder carrying only five lines, serious seeds were carried by every seed vendor because they were known for stability and quality. now what will become of them? peace-bitem
 
plant numbers in England

talked to a number of English growers and they all told me the main reason they use female seeds is "an insurance" if they are discovered. i was told that something over 4 plants and the law is much more severe on the individual.

most would rather be allowed more plants so they could choose their favorites out of many natural plants and do breeding too. its just the laws being what they are that growers will choose the "female seeds" option.
 
biteme said:
mr. e humperdinck, serious seeds is a poor place for someone to get a handle on hermy/intersex questions. simon has fooled with ak47 to the point where i dont believe he can now produce the original in seed form? and most of this mess began with the pursuit of fem lines however, this is the first post where i ever heard that bubblegum was also on the endangered list?

why does shit like this happen? did simon get bored? in spite of being a smallish breeder carrying only five lines, serious seeds were carried by every seed vendor because they were known for stability and quality. now what will become of them? peace-bitem
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The troubles for Simon began well before his recent interest for the fem lines.
After that the Dutch cannabis law has changed in the late 90's all the seed companies have had their grow ops busted at least once and for some of them repeatedly.
Simon like many other unfortunately did not escape the rule...

Peace.

K.
 
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You couldn't pay me to run fem seeds but that is my preference. In fact I wont even buy seeds from a breeder/seedbank that work with femenized stock. For me the search for killer phenos and or good males is part of the fun :D. But that is just me. I am sure that fem seeds have their place, just not in my garden.

sp
 
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