Are SSH, Jack Herer and Diesel the same thing?

MNS customers seem satisfied, for the most part, but are there actually any seeds for sale at the moment? When I go to the forums, half the discussion seems to be people begging Shanti to return and restock strain x or y.

Goes 2 show what he knows.

Ganja ain't a seed on that list we don't have access to.

And let's not forget the member discount.

Or the medical discount. Or the customer service.

Or the plethora of available strains.

But what do I kno LOL?
 
I asked the original question on sensis forum,about what sensi taught about nevil's claim re SSH,JH,DIESEL,what ukcheesehead posted is the answer i got,

This response is what prompted me to ask was it really nevil posting.For the record i wasnt trolling.
 
@alecky

Did you say this over at Sensi?

Just like to ask whats sensiseeds view on nevils claims over at mns forums about jack herer, he claims that Silver Haze(R),jackherer and diesel are all the same cutting and he gives the genetics.
Is any of this true?


Nice one Ganja,thanks for answering and shedding some light on this.The reason i asked is cause shanti introduced the poster as nevil.Id be afraid to ask is it even nevil posting at mns incase they put a hit out on me!There are some very sensitive forum members over there!

So i decided to ask here and get the definitive answer from the horses mouth.


Well i belive ganja and sensiseeds,they have been around a long time,longer than any other seed bank.Also this guy introduced as "nevil" could be anyone.I find it strange that members on MNS readily belive it is nevil without any proof,only shanti's introduction.
I reckon its jesse on another power trip,backing up all the crazy claims he makes.

I'm putn u on FrontSt.
 
well if Sensi is trying to accuse others of lying maybe they need to start with a good reflection on their own house...Ben has been out of the game at Sensi for some time and the whole company has gone to shit, read around on various forums and you'll hear ppl say that either the plants aren't the same as they were ten years ago or lack of germination...Sensi's been going under for years and i often wonder how much of their offerings are the same mothers and fathers used and how many have new parents...ppl get Afg#1 plants 8 ft tall, the Northern Lights line has drastically deteriated, most are highly disappointed at Sensi so i can understand there anger...o well always in fighting i suppose
 
Forgive my intrusion, but...

"Well i belive ganja and sensiseeds,they have been around a long time,longer than any other seed bank.Also this guy introduced as "nevil" could be anyone.I find it strange that members on MNS readily belive it is nevil without any proof,only shanti's introduction."

Is shanti's word no good in your book, alecky?

HB.
 
Hi Lurk,
Sour Diesel, much like with OG Kush, has become more of a name to push good cannabis, as opposed to a single variety or name used to define a specific set of genetics. There isnt just one sour diesel, nor is there just one OG Kush. And indeed OG Kush is a renamed Dutch strain, as are most of the strains on the market which are truly good. As Ive mentioned in the past, the first time I ever heard the term Diesel was in relation to Soma's NYCD, which would not surprise me in the least bit to be yet again another renamed Dutch variety.

Some highly incorrect info here that I feel needs to be corrected.

There is only one Sour Diesel cutting, it is also called East Coast Sour Diesel after Rez added the East Coast tag. It is a tall, stretchy sativa dominant plant that takes 12 weeks to be really good. People complain it lacks duration to it's high but that is because they take it too early at 9-10 weeks. I've run the ECSD cut several times as it is a fave of mine, I have a cutting just beginning to flower now.

There is a similar but more indica Diesel cutting known as Headband or Daywrecker Diesel, it is more fuelly than the ECSD which is lemony with a fuel undertone. The Headband is 9-10 weeks and very nice, as nice as ECSD in the minds of many. I haven't grown this one personally but good friends hold it and grow it, I will be running it sometime next year I think, it's definitely well worth a place in my garden.

OG Kush a renamed Dutch strain? That is total speculation. OG Kush originated in the early 90s in Cali, it is probably the result of an accidental cross pollination when the Chemdawg 91 cut hermied.

Soma's NYCD is the result of crossing the Afghan/Hawaiian male Shanti gave to Soma to a Diesel seed that Soma was given by a Rasta from New York called Roger (In his book Soma doesn't name him he just tells the tale of getting the seed from a guy with dreads that had grown down to the ground).

The initial NYCD release was a straight F1, Soma then did a BX and released that instead. I don't know if it has been further worked since but I suspect it has. Soma's keeper mother of NYCD he has won cups with is a very orangey smelling and tasting plant with a nice Diesel undertone, I call it Orange Diesel and like it a lot. My good friend THC4Sim grew the initial F1 NYCD release way back in 2005 and kept a very nice cutting that is Grapefruit with a diesel undertone, that cutting has been passed far and wide in the UK, it is a bit more indica leaning than Soma's Orange Diesel cut and not as potent, but it is one of the finest tasting weeds around, I've run it a few times.

As for other seed versions of Diesel, the two i know well are the Rez Sour Diesel IBL and the Zen Seeds Dansk Sour Diesel. Rez's IBL is not an IBL, it has too much variation although it does have a pheno that is very close to the ECSD, it also has a pheno that is very close to a typical NYCD pheno, short, squat, looks like an Afghan and turns purple in late flower, it is very similar to the THC4Sim NYCD cutting. The Dansk Sour Diesel is excellent, very cheap and I would recommend it to everyone who wanted some Sour Diesel, you will get plants every bit as good as the original ECSD cutting, my good friend Karma Genetics brought a batch of Dansk Sour Diesel to Amsterdam in April that impressed everyone very much. I think from what the Zen Seeds guys told me when I was staying on their houseboat in April that their version is a Rez Sour Diesel IBL male crossed to the ECSD cut but we smoked a hell of a lot of bud that weekend so my memory is a bit hazy. I had just got out of prison and those Danish guys treated me to a hell of a warm welcome and great time which made me feel so much better after spending some time in a jail cell, I will always love them for that.

I will dig out the disk with the pics of my Diesel grows and post some pics, I have done my fair share of swimming in the Diesel genepool so have a good handle on what it contains.

Here is the definitive article on the lineage of the Chemdawg and Diesel cuttings, written by another friend of mine, HighnLonesome who is a very kind and honest gent, he exhaustively researched this info and it has been verified as being correct by people who were there when the Diesels were first grown from seed such as JJ-NYC who is also a friend of mine and another kind and honest gent. I have highlighted the sentences that cover the lineage of the two Diesel cuttings, you can take this info as fact because it has been verified as such:

Chemdawg 101
***Special thanks go to orgogliodiprovi and chemdog who helped me straighten out the story and exact details. ***

Brief background:

At a Grateful Dead show at Deer Creek Amphitheatre, 'joebrand' (aka 'wonkanobe') and 'pbud' met 'chemdog' and sold him an ounce of very high quality pot for $500. joe and chemdog exchanged numbers and they later arranged for two ounces to be shipped to chemdog on the east coast. According to chemdog, one ounce was seedless and the other had 13 seeds.

In ’91, chemdog popped the first 4 seeds. From these seeds, one male was found and disposed of (chemdog was young, you can’t blame him). The 3 females were labeled ‘chemdawg’ (now ’91 chemdawg), ‘chemdawg a’ (now chemdawg’s sister), and ‘chemdawg b’. In '01, chemdog and his girlfriend attempted to germ 3 more seeds, labeled ‘c’, ‘d’, and ‘e’. the ‘e’ seed never germinated, ‘c’ turned out to be junk (according to chemdog), and chemdawg ‘d’ was the keeper. In '06, 'chemdog' and 'joebrand' reunited and joe was given 4 of the last 6 beans: Chemdawg phenos 1-4, '4' being the chosen keeper. Joe thought the '4' was the best representation of the original and thus dubbed it the 'reunion pheno'. Chemdog still has two seeds left in his stash.

Chemdawg Crosses:
• 'OG Kush' (the original cut) came from an s1 from in a bag of '91 Chemdawg in the Lake Tahoe area in 1996.
'Sour Diesel' aka ECSD came from an accidental cross of ('91 Chemdawg x Mass Super Skunk/NL)x DNL after the DNL hermed and seeded the room. The DNL's lineage is NL/Shiva x Hawaiian.
• Original Diesel' (also known as Diesel #1, Headband, Daywrecker Diesel, Underdawg) came from a cross of '91 Chemdawg x (Mass Super Skunk x Sensi's Northern Lights) done by a guy known as ‘weasel’.


• 'chemdog' and friends made several crosses that are held closely by a small group of friends and acquaintances. Among them are:

1. Super Snowdawg (’91 Chemdawg x [Super skunk x Oregon Sno])
2. Giesel (Chem D x Mass Super Skunk)
3. Bubble Chem (Chemdawg’s Sister x Sag's Bubbleberry)
4. Dawg Daze aka ChemHaze (Chem D x ’93 Sensi's NL#5/Haze)
5. Chemdawg D x Pbud (another old-school Colorado strain)


JJ-NYC has been working on a Chemdawg D-based seed line for several years now. He started by crossing Chemdawg D to Sensi's Afghani after thoroughly testing both Sensi's Afghani and Sensi's Hindu Kush to determine which was more stable and would be better for the initial cross. JJ then did a backcross, known as "Double Dawg." Several phenos of this circulate and several people still have beans. JJ's latest work to the line is a second backcross known as "Tres Dawg" which is just starting to get tested.

Rezdog of Reservoir Seeds recently released several Chemdawg crosses as part of his 'Trinity' charity auctions. The crosses included Chemdawg D x Sensi's Hindu Kush and Snowdawg x Sensi's Hindu Kush, Chemdawg D x Sour Diesel IBL, Snowdawg x Sour Diesel IBL, ChemHaze x Sour Diesel IBL and Giesel x Sour Diesel IBL.

I hope that helps to clarify things vis-a-vis Diesel.
 
Hi all!

Hi! BH

SD is maybe not link with NYCD!
but still we don't know the genetic link!
This cut, come from what seed? Who are the Original parent?

We don't know the genetic link!

There a lot of people that want to keep their little secret!
This is where thing like that lead us!

I hate secret!

MT
 
Wel, no-one really knows what the exact genetics were that Roger gave to Soma, it was supposed to be seed that Roger picked out of some excellent Diesel buds he purchased in NYC (Roger is from NYC). I have always doubted that the Diesel Roger had was the Sour Diesel as the Sour is a very sativa plant and I see virtually no sativa in the NYCD. It is more likely that the Diesel Roger had was the Headband/Daywrecker version as that is more indica.

Soma grew Roger's seed and got a female that he says stank of Diesel fuel. He pollinated this female with Shanti's Afghan/Hawaiian male and that was the begining of NYCD. He sold this initial f1 for a year then released a second version that was a BX of a Diesel x Afghan Hawaiian male to the Diesel mother. The reason he did this was there was not enough Diesel taste/smell in the original f1, the tropical fruit flavours of the Afghan-Hawaiian came through in many of the f1 plants. THC4Sim's cut is an Afghan-Hawaiian pheno imho as it grows like an Afghan and is very fruity with only a little bit of Diesel in the background, most people find it to taste of Grapefruits with hints of Diesel lurking below. Soma's cut is orangey and more fuelly, it leans more towards the Diesel mother and is a bit more sativa, it is also a bit more potent, very good pot indeed.

So we do know the original parents of NYCD, the male was Shanti's Afghan/Hawaiian, the female was a bagseed given to Soma by Roger the rasta from NYC. The one unknown part of the NYCD puzzle is what plant produced the seed Roger had. As I said before, I reckon it was the Headband/Daywrecker cut rather than the Sour Diesel cut.

Rezdog used a Soma NYCD male to cross to the Sour Diesel cut as the initial mating that began his Sour Diesel projects, that is why in Rez's Sour Diesel you can find both ECSD and NYCD phenos.
 
I feel the need to give my 2c on the SSH and Jack Herer thing. Nevil bred SSH, the lineage and selections have been detailed many times.

Jack Herer was introduced by Sensi Seeds as their entry to the HTCC in 1995, I think this was just at the end of Nevil's time working as breeder for Sensi, I think it is Nev's work, it is certainly made from Nev's genes. It is similar to SSH but has a slightly different palette of flavours, tends to be spicier than SSH, I like them both a lot, they are both great breeds.

In order to get a handle on what Nev is saying about SSH, Jack and Diesel being the same cuts you need some insight into how the companies that enter the HTCC do things. They just buy in the best batch of weed they can find in that calendar year and enter that in the cup under whatever name they want then they sell seeds with the same name. Usually there is little or no relation between the buds that were entered into the cup and the seeds sold with the same name. Let me outline two recent examples of this:

Couple of cups ago GHS entered a batch of SSH they purchased from a broker in the Dam and grown by some guys in the south of Holland, it was an excellent exemplar of SSH, a 9 week pheno that leaned to the NL parent. Shanti posted about this at the time on icmag. The SSH they entered in the cup is a pheno from Mr Nice Seeds, it has been around for years in Holland, those guys in the south have been growing it for years. However, the seeds that GHS were selling at that time were completely different to Mr Nice's original SSH so this is a clear example of the buds entered in a cup under a certain name bearing little or no relation to the seeds sold under that same name.

Secondly, the year after the GHS SSH example above, Barney's won a cup with a batch of C5 which is an old cutting from Nevil's garden and is a NL5 x Haze. They called it Red Dragon and Derry the owner of Barney's got up on stage to receive his cup and gave an impassioned speech about having bred Red Dragon in the jungles of South America from new landraces sativas from places like Laos. That was 100% bullshit, the Red Dragon buds were C5, that is a known fact among those in the know in the Dam, I won't name names but I have this direct from the horse's mouth. The seeds that Barney's sell as Red Dragon could contain C5, Barney's bought in batches of seeds bred by a guy who goes by the online names Zeno and Freakje, he made several matings using the G13 x Haze male from Soma and the best Haze cuttings available - A5, C5, Mexican Haze, HPHaze etc. Perhaps Red Dargon seed from Barney's is C5 x G13Haze, Zeno/Freakje definitely did that cross. The Dampkring Hazes such as Ocean's Twelve Haze are also bred by Zeno/Freakje, again, they bought the seed from him.

The moral of the story is that since the ban on seed production in Holland in 1998 it has become a totally fraudulent and bullshit world of fakery, lies and double-dealing, companies like GHS and Barney's pull every trick they can think of which makes it hard for the layperson to know what is what. Luckily I have multiple contacts in that world and have an insight into a lot of what goes on as a result. I'm not afraid to speak out and tell what I know as I won't be going back to the Dam for a very long time, in fact, I'm not able to for legal reasons! lol Besides, what is the worst that could happen? Derry calling me names or Arjan having me thrown out of his coffeeshop? I rarely visited their shops anyways so I have nothing to lose by speaking out.
 
The story on Cindy is that they found some seeds in a bag of buds they bought in the old Sensi Seeds Coffeeshop. The bag was labelled Jack Herer. They got three females, one they called Princess, one they called Cafe Girl and one they called Genius.

Cinderella 99 is the result of outcrossing the Princess to a Shiva Skunk male then doing several backcrosses.

I think that the buds they got could well have been Jack Herer but it was probably a very NL dom Jack. God knows what the pollen source that made those bagseeds was, could have been anything, it was almost certainly pollen from a male rather than a hermie as Bros Grimm never found any hermie problems in their subsequent work with the three females from those bagseeds.

Cindy 99 reminds me a lot of NL so maybe the seeds they got were NL dom Jack Herer x NL but who knows, it's one of those mysteries that will never be answered unless someone is able to genetically profile Cindy 99. Someone should send Nev some C99 buds and see what he thinks the lineage is, I bet he would think it's mostly NL genes with a very small touch of Haze.
 
I could read this info all day long. Thanks for sharing, BH.

I haven't been able to find a good description of the difference between the NL5Hz's Shantibaba used for MH and the one Nevil used for SSH. Do you know?
 
I'm afraid I don't. They did a huge grow of thousands of NL5 x Haze and Neville picked a female which became the mother of SSH, Shanti picked a different female and that became the mother of Mango Haze. The A5 and C5 cuts come from that grow and A5 is a mango smelling/tasting plant, I expect it is similar to Shanti's selection that went into Mango Haze.
 
Thanks, BH. I think I did read that somewhere. I'm ingesting too much info probably...takin' a step back.

I'm first time MNS with MH on the way, BTW. Doing some research to learn what kind of phenos I can anticipate. I guess that's my real question. I read the entire MH thread today, I'm probably just being impatient.
 
Hehe, it's all good man. Don't blame you at all for getting itchy to try the MH, I have never run it but I have heard only great things about her, pretty much everyone reckons MH is as good as SSH and SSH is shit hot so I am sure MH is also.
 
Hey BH great thread!

Soma is another one that capitalized on Nevilles work and High Times writing.

I remember hearing/reading somewhere that there was a couple of NL x SK (Shiva Skunk) males that did not get culled until late and they were the most likely pollen source of the Princess family.?

Kb 8)~_
 
Hey BH great thread!

Soma is another one that capitalized on Nevilles work and High Times writing.

I remember hearing/reading somewhere that there was a couple of NL x SK (Shiva Skunk) males that did not get culled until late and they were the most likely pollen source of the Princess family.?

Kb 8)~_

First time I met Soma I thought there was something not right about him, just got this vibe that didn't jive with the way he looks, like he was portraying a character rather than being his true self. As I got to know more about him I learnt I was right, he's a smart guy with a sharp brain for business, to me, his image is mostly marketing. His breeding work has never impressed me in that he has never done any real selection, his entire catalogue is based on 13 skunky cuts he brought from the US and two males, one given to him by Shanti and the other the only seed that popped out of an old pack of G13Haze. Hell, if Shanti handed me a shit hot male I could have a great seed catalogue too, just hit all the best female cuttings I can lay my hands on and sell the F1s.

I've not heard that story relating to Cindy but it sounds about right, I could very much believe it to be true. I wonder if Nev was still at Sensi when that Jack was grown?

I'm sure it is too.

"Nice" to meet you BTW.

You'll be hearing from me and my MH soon. :)

Likewise mate, always pleased to meet nice folks and share info.

Look forward to hearing and seeing more about your MH, you might persuade me I need to run it after I'm done with the SSH I have going now.
 
I wonder if Nev was still at Sensi when that Jack was grown?
The JH came out of a batch that made before ending up in jail. My ex manager grew this batch out when I was in jail or shortly after I got out (so he told me). It was a stand out indica type reminisent of the NL5. It was quick too, 8 weeks. Most of the siblings were stretchy sativa types. I tested the same batch again, but didn't find another one. If you do the numbers with something with even 25% NL5, you will find types that lean to the NL5. This was one. They pop up in the NH too, but until now they haven't been the best ones.
N.
 
The JH came out of a batch that made before ending up in jail. My ex manager grew this batch out when I was in jail or shortly after I got out (so he told me). It was a stand out indica type reminisent of the NL5. It was quick too, 8 weeks. Most of the siblings were stretchy sativa types. I tested the same batch again, but didn't find another one. If you do the numbers with something with even 25% NL5, you will find types that lean to the NL5. This was one. They pop up in the NH too, but until now they haven't been the best ones.
N.

Very interesting Nev, Cindy 99 is an 8 weeker and like I say, it reminds me of NL with a touch of sat added, I guess we can safely say Cindy has a lot of NL5 in it and it definitely came from your work at Sensi.

Damn, all these years we have been wondering about these things and now you're here to ask we are answering soooo many 'mysteries'. Happy days.
 
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