As far as I know, Sam the Skunkman AKA David Watson has not uttered a peep about the passing of Nevil, which I believe speaks volumes about the man. But he has weighed in with his story about the seeds he sold to Nevil.
The original thread I was going to post this in was started by Nevil in December 2010, but it is closed. This was Nevil's opening post:
Only the good die young.
The original thread I was going to post this in was started by Nevil in December 2010, but it is closed. This was Nevil's opening post:
As avid MNS and haze lore readers know, Nevil's acquisition of haze genetics from David Watson in Holland in 1985 was a seminal moment in modern cannabis history. In particular, much has been speculated about the origins of the seeds David Watson sold to Nevil that produced the legendary Haze A and Haze C males, and how David Watson acquired them. Here's what Nevil said:Nevil said:"It looks like dope, but really it's hope," explains David Watson. What he means is that many of these plants have been specifically bred not to produce an intoxicating resin or hashish. Indeed, HortaPharm hopes to thwart the aims of the average recreational user.”
The team is already close to finding their own commercial Holy Grail - seeds that will produce a one-off, female, seedless crop of plants with no psychotropic effects for the consumer. Why, you might ask, would they want to do that?
HortaPharm is only interested in developing female plants that are sterile, but this is not just to protect their genetic copyright. "If a plant is not kept busy producing seeds, all its energy can go into resin production," says Watsons Dutch colleague and biochemist Etienne de Meijer.
Watson believes the bright future of (Cannabis) is contained in the greenhouses of HortaPharm and GW Pharmaceuticals.
'The object is to patent up every possible combination of cannabinoids with efficacy for every possible disease they can treat, and every possible genetic sequence! Once ready to make the move, they will shut down every medical cannabis grower for patent fraud”
“Monsanto terminator technology is being applied to Cannabis by (David Watson) at Hortapharm in Holland".'
The subject of Haze keeps coming up.
I got mine from Sam the Skunkman in the 80's. I bought a couple of thousand of old stock late 60s/ 70. The first batch that I planted produced one plant, a female. It was the slowest to flower I'd ever come across and flowered for longer. I got 3 different crops of seed of it and it had still not finished. It was huge and filled a quarter of the room, it had wispy buds and when you smoked it, other people complained about the smell. It didn't have much resin and after 9 months flowering, with no end in sight, I chopped it. It seem the most impractical plant I'd ever grown. I didn't keep a cutting.
One of the males I crossed it with was Ruderalis x NL1 X NL1. I was testing a 25% Ruderalis male on the most difficult plant I'd come across to see what it would do. I used all the seed I had to find the earliest male for the next generation. I grew the females out and because it was so resinous, I made hash out of it. To this day it was the best hash I've ever smoked, and I've been privileged to have smoked the best.
I truly regret not having made a cutting of that plant. I didn't make that mistake with the 6 that followed.
I'm feeling a bit sad now, I think that I'll go and have a smoke.
I'll tell you the rest later.
Still a lot of questions about haze and apparently a lot of conflicting stories.
I haven't been paying attention to what Sam the Skunkman has been saying. He lost me years ago and if he wants to come out from behind his alias and go toe to toe with me, well that will be just fine with me (hey David).
If he is saying that he gave me Purple Haze and it was crap, Well that's true. If he is saying that his lime green Haze was crap , well that's true too. If he is saying that he gave me a Haze cutting, well to be honest, I can't remember, but if he did it was crap. I seem to recall that he entered his lime Haze in a Cup, if he did he got his arse kicked.
The Haze seeds I got from Sam were grown in America in 69/70. I got them in the mid 80's. All of my Haze came from these seeds of which I was saying I got 7 plants. I was hoping that Sam would come out with something good from his remaining seeds, he never did and to my knowledge, nor did anyone else. The only good haze that hit the market was from two males A and C.
Hz C male produced 5Hz1 which won a Cup or 2, this was a daughter of NL5 which won a cup. 5Hz1 when crossed with Sk1x HzC produced Silver Haze which won a Cup. Ben renamed it Jack Herrer. Somebody else renamed it Diesel. 5HzC X Sk1Hz C was not as good as 5Hz1. Mango Haze (5Hz122)is a full sister to 5Hz1 and these two were the best out of tens of thousands.
Haze A produced 5HzA2 (5A2) and was featured on the cover of the 1990 catalogue and is the mother of Nevil's Haze, the father being HzC.
If you are smoking any good Haze, I'll bet you London to a brick that it comes from Haze A or Hz C or both!
After the first batch of '69 Haze seeds only produced 1 plant, I decided to plant the rest. This produced 5 plants A,B,C,D and E.
Plants B,D and E were females, of which B was the best. I tried all possible combinations and the best was B x C. BC was actually grown commercially alongside 5HzC1, so it was a 10/11 week plant. This fact alone indicated that HzB was a Haze Hybrid to something early. I suspect that most of BC's quality came from Dad.
I planted the rest of the old seeds. One came out. O for Omega. It was a 1970 seed. I suspected that it was only 25% Haze with one parent being Indica. It too did not really pan out.
The males were the "goods". Without those two plants, I think that all would have been lost. If I'd only kept a cutting of the first female, whose genotype was closer to male A. I'm start to get that sad feeling again.
Ah well, you can be thankful that the seeds fell into my hands, otherwise you wouldn't know what I'm talking about.
So that's Nevil's side of the story. Sam recently responded in a thread on ICMag to questions about what seeds he sold Nevil. Here's a nice summary by our friend leet (l33t) in that thread a few pages before David Watson responded. I quote leet here because I completely agree with what he said, and he said it well.Sam would have had the same problem as me. The seeds were very old, either nothing of consequence came up or he didn't keep cuttings of what came up.
Here's the post David Watson made last week:As far as the Haze story, I have no idea mate. We only know Sams story and Nevils story which are not really contradicting. It is only contradicting that Nevil said they were from a seedbag labeled 69' but Sam never disputed the fact that this wasnt true. Sam doesnt remember exactly what seeds these were and we have no reason to dispute that the seed Nevil got wasnt labeled as such. Also Sam doesn't remember if he gave him a female or a male clone, Nevil says he might have had a female clone and if it was, it was crap. That's what these people say.
I believe Sam had lots of haze seeds he had collected and labeled with years. He sold seeds that were labeled 67-68-69-70+ in the 80's so lets say at least 11 years and if it was 85' ( I remember he said 80s dont remember if he mentioned the exact years ) we are talking about 15 years old seed , maybe even more. Which sounds spot on for the seed germination Nevil had ( 7 out of 1000 ). He might have thought that these were the oldest seeds he had and he would probably wouldnt germinate them or he thought the later seeds were better so he sold the old seed, or he needed money when he moved to holland, who knows mate. Don't forget Sam wasn't there from the beginning of the haze thing, the guys were growing and collecting seed for many years before Sam met them and then he had access and also contributed to these seeds... thats the story. It doens't necessarily mean that Sam was there in 69... Nevil is claiming that Sam probably didnt even smoke the 69 Haze and he only knows the haze from 74 and later.
Now I don't know the story behind the Original Haze brothers, I only know what Sam said and Nev said and for me their stories match perfectly and dont contradict themselves...
For all I know Nev and Sam could be the same person or the DEA or pals to expertly market their strains. Stories are good for people that dont have anything better to do but they are just that, stories.
David Watson later responded in caps to some questions:I just read all the posts from my last post #1945 to #2376.The seeds I sold to Nevil were all made by me mostly from Holland work.
I never sold any I collected from Haze I obtained from the Haze Bros. I sold my work.
J & G are the same guy. Almost all my OHaze seeds were from him.
I never sold any OHaze X S Indian Kerala or Thai as OHaze, I always called them OHaze X whatever.
Burning Bush was 100% pure OHaze I grew it in Calif and named it, RCC also smoked it with me, and loved it. That and another OHaze I called Cream De La Cream and another I called Mr Greasy even though it was a girl, it had very very streched laddery buds that even when dry and placed in a zip bag greased up the bag unbelievably, it was also hard to roll and keep a joint lit.
Nevil did not have OHaze seeds from before the 70's 80"s as he got his OHaze from me and I only sold him seeds I had made, all 100% OHaze, but not from the 60's or early 70's as I did not start making OHaze seeds until the mid 70's and in large amounts in the 80's in Holland. I think I sold him seeds I made in Holland after 85'.
I will try and answer a few questions if I know the answers, but will ignore any questions I have answered before. Dont ask me about others Haze as I was not the breeder you need to ask the breeder.
The reason that OHaze was seldom found in Coffee shops in Amsterdam is because commercial growers wanted herb with a short flowering period, why would they grow a OHaze that took 16-24 weeks and did not yield as much as a 7-8 week plant?
That and I was a seed producer not a commercial grower if I was I would have worked up an OHaze pure, that was better then NH at least to me.
I get that not all liked OHaze X Skunk or Thai/OHazeXSkunk but I did and many others I know also did.
I also have yet to find any Cannabis that had a more Cerebral, Clear, Up, Psychdelic high with no celing that got you higher every time you took a toke. Nevils did not, for me anyway.
People have many different preferences I also have mine. RCC agrees with me if that matters. I did not see OHaze until the very early 70's I did see both G's and RL's my wife manicured for G and he was the first OHaze Bro, we were close back in the day, and his was the best. Shame he quite growing OHaze but it was so much easier to get my Skunk #1 seeds for his grows, this was before people maintained clones, and his OHaze was already suffering from inbreeding depression, I did not try and improve my OHaze seed lines I tried to preserve all the genes and only sold them with the advice to use them for breeding not commercial growing, to use for commercial growing you need to grow thousands and select the best 10 clones to reproduce for product, few people wanted to do that.
I sold Nevil seeds for $1 a pop for any of my varieties.
I sold by the kilo for €5,000 there are 50,000 - 75,000 for small seeds like OHaze.
I still have a KG of OHaze seeds made a decade ago they are not for sale they are for a OHaze project I am trying to arrange outdoors in the ground at a latitude of 18 just to find and clone the best 10-20 for production where legal.
I have zero problems to keep well made seeds alive stored under refridgerated 4c for 25 years so they are still germainating in the high 90's if and when I do this I will post photos of the 10-20 as well as their Cannabinoid and terpene profiles.
These are slightly over 75 per gram so 75,000 seeds and normally I get 70% females with OHaze so I will have lots to select the 10-20 keepers from, I expect about 50,000 females if started carefully. I am retired from selling seeds, but I will allow others to do what they want with my work, they will pay me for the work, and it is not work as I want to do it even retired.
FYI the OHaze grown by the Haze Bros were not all equal in quality, maybe 10% were fantastic, 50% good or great, and maybe 10% not as good but most would still think it was great. Each year after 1970 the quality and yields and vigor declined a bit. By 1980 I did not know any large OHaze growers, for the reasons I have stated.
I have told the truth, I have zero to gain by altering the truth, I am retired for several years now. I have had a great life, few complaints, I would like to put out a dependable pure OHaze seed line or two for my self and others, even if I do not sell them but let others do so. Selling is work, I do not need the $ and I will only do what I love today. Breeding OHaze is not work for me it is fun, and I think I can do it better then anyone else just because of my experience and history.
FYI I have all but given up on Phylos, they have other goals then my interest in Cannabis Evolution and Relationships, but FYI I only sent them extracted DNA no living materials they could steal, I also sent them many of my varieties DNA, focused on Landraces to help explore my interest in Evolution and Relationships. I am glad I tried, nothing ventured nothing gained.....
More from Watson:Sams
Do you still have any OHaze seeds from G ? If soo have you tried to germ them ? NO I HAVE NONE LEFT JUST OFFSPRING.
From your post I assume Nevils Haze was from pure Lumbo correct? YES.
Nevil said you told him burning bush was an ancestor of his seed stock he acquired , the 66-70 dates labeled on Nevils seeds he acquired from you was a BS story ? NOT SURE BUT BURNING BUSH WAS PURE OHAZE I GREW AND NAMED.
The fact he got 7 seeds to pop out of thousands from 85 stock don’t sound right . But you would know best THE SEEDS I SOLD HIM HAD A VERY HIGH GERM RATE, HE DID NOT EVER GROW THOUSANDS FROM SEEDS HE GOT FROM ME AS FAR AS I KNOW.
Soo all the OHaze you sold to seedsman TFD positronics was pure Colombian? YES UNLESS SOLD AS A HAZE HYBRID.
The emphasis all these years folks have made on thai association to OHaze is funny I GAVE BOTH RL AND G THAI SEEDS I GOT FROM GOLDEN OFF THE STICK THAI THAT WAS FANTASTIC IN MAYBE 75 IN SC. THEY MADE A FEW HYBRIDS BUT G LIKE THE PURE OHAZE BETTER AND DID NOT USE THEM AGAIN, RL LIKED THEM BUT DID NOT KEEP CLONES SO THEY WERE GONE PRETTY QUICK, THE SAME WITH S INDIAN, KERALA. I MADE MORE HYBRIDS AS I FOUND THEM INTERESTING.
It seems you answered this already but I don’t understand, you never sold any Haze x Thai / S.indian as OHaze . But you said burning bush was OHaze with a strong Thai influence
Is burning bush Colombian x Thai ? Or pure Lumbo ? NO THAI IN IT.
I love details I appreciate you sharing more with us and setting some things straight, your wife manicuring and details of Nevils stock
I hope this future OHaze project comes to fruit and we can possibly have a taste or access to a representation from someone who knows it best
TIME WILL TELL.
So we have David Watson laying claim to having produced the seeds he sold to Nevil, completely contradicting what Nevil said. I don't believe a fucking word of it. Nevil had absolutely no reason to lie about what he bought from David Watson, while Watson's new alternate version that he bravely posted after Nevil's death is all about how important his role was in the haze story. He also went on a tear editing other people's posts in that thread and others.This story has inaccuracies I will not correct them as I may wish to tell my own story some day. That is why I do not like to tell all because then someone else will say they have the whole true story, they do not. This has happened several times already.... Hell I am the leader of a Sacred Seeds Collective of many growers started in the 40's or 50's what a joke, I was Sacred Seeds no one else, there was no Sacred Seeds until I started it named it bred the seeds. I did all the breeding or seed production. Big Herb that is why I ignore many of your posts because of articles like this with mistakes are taken as the truth. I do not really want to help anyone that does not get all their "facts" straight. I think the preface was written by Jair whom I know, and the rest by Big Herb in 2011? He did the best he could as he was not there. Hell he tracked down the 3 Haze Bros from back East I never did.
Only the good die young.