Grail: The Ultimate Haze Hybrid

[jack hairy]

i dont have much outdoor experience, but i will say you can do anything that you can do outdoors, but better if you do it indoors. you just need to know how to set up the environment properly. you can control the weather indoors, make it brighter, drier, better nutrition, better watering, more co2, whatever. its all under your control. if you dont have good success, then you dont know how to control the environment properly for the plant you are growing.
outdoors, its never sunny everyday of the season, and rain has to fall sometime

 

[joshuahazen]

Well Jack, I must just be spoiled by great N. Cali weather, but on a decent season I will tell you right now, a good outdoor plant properly grown, in general, will yeild at least 10x as much, be denser, and stonier. I don't care how good you can set it up indoors. Have you ever seen a 20lb plant, bone dried and cured? I have, and more than once. I'll give you a hint: It wasn't an indoor plant.

Don't get me wrong, I do great indoors, and I love indoor grows, this is where my roots are and my primary expertise, but if you say indoors is better, that is probably just because you don't know how to grow outdoors, or never have. You can get a certain perfect appearance from an indoor grow, that you can't get outdoors, however that does not translate to more potent, not by a long shot.
Next thing you'll be telling me is that a 1000 watt hps is actually more powerful than the sun. Sure it is...

 

[suburban]

i dont have much outdoor experience, but i will say you can do anything that you can do outdoors, but better if you do it indoors. you just need to know how to set up the environment properly. you can control the weather indoors, make it brighter, drier, better nutrition, better watering, more co2, whatever. its all under your control. if you dont have good success, then you dont know how to control the environment properly for the plant you are growing.
outdoors, its never sunny everyday of the season, and rain has to fall sometime

No offense but if you don't have much outdoor experience you're not in much of a position to make that statement

Check out the tree pics in this thread or any of the Aussie maestros' grow threads here.
Indoors and outdoors are completely different, not better/worse - each requires attention to different factors to maximize your plant's potential for your particular circumstances.

 

[bigherb]

All we can do is report our experience

my quote from higly resinous plants thread

IMO ,i think environment nutes n lighting play a role but genetics are the biggest influence

As we know the amount of resin doesnt reflect the potency or effect of a plant.

while some might not agree and have a different opinion/experience ,THE MAIN basis about hawaii genetics or any landrace imports for that matter is you can not duplicate the same product outside of its environment .

There is countless post n threads on this topic,ther are several native hawaiian from IC n THCfarm who all have the same opinion/experience.The same plant they grew outdoor was not as potent as the indoor ,flavor somtimes suffers outdoor caz of the enviromental factors

But no matter what expert grower you may be you cannot recreate the hot spots of the globe such as the hawaiian islands ,many hawaiian growers i believe most grow in the native soil no additives ,the volcanic soil cannot be reproduced impossible ,this is just one of the many factors aside from countless others such as UV light angles that have been discussed many times .


1luvbigherb

 

[bigherb]

On the haze subject i wanted to share this post n quote which was another factor in my thoughts of several correlations


NL5hz/NL1hz/silver haze /posi Ohaze of late 80's - 90'S ASWELL as the pure sativa imports that came threw NYC are all possible lineage to our nyc haze n hybrids.I cant find it but sure i will some day soon its only one man experience/word but if i recall he stated he experienced Nyc haze before the SB release dates ,aside from this My older cousin smoked Frank for his fist time in 90 ,Soo that'd be some coincedince that a year later or the same year it arrived in the rotten apple

Some more food for thought to my thought on the possibility hmm hmmm possibility that a pure haze exist in nyc .Here the post i said i would find.Thanks Baphomet

Originally Posted by The Baphomet
bigherb, I received 6 cuts of the church around 94 and ran her for a few years at a few different locations and lost her around 97-98 . The cut was given to me by commercial grower friend who couldn't run her because of the long flowering cycle and he was running faster finishing $tuff , he never told me where he got it from and I never bothered to ask .
As for the origin of the church I have no idea ,all I now is that it was a haze . The first time I smoked it was around 85-86 and it was from a spot in Harlem , they sold dimes of it and they where the smallest dimes you saw in those days but three of use would be totally whacked off one joint that we usually smoked in the last car of the train on the ride home from the spot .
There was another Haze that floated around NY in the mid to late 90's called the pepper or pepper-head it was also a killa haze . A few years ago I got a p from NY that was labeled nlhaze that was very church like .
I have 7 more of these Thunk seeds IM going to wait till this one is done before I pop a few more because space is kinda limited to the sd right now

1luvbigherb

 

[joshuahazen]

Well the main problem with outdoor is that you are limited by where you live, and by the seasons of the earth. I have smoked Maui bud in Maui, and I will tell you right now, that I don't care how many lights you use, or what advanced hydro or Aero techs you employ, you won't get something more potent from a Maui strain grown indoors.

NO WAY.

I don't believe it. There are all kinds of tall tales here on the internet, trust me. Don't believe everything you read.

I love indoor grows, it is my specialty, and probably my favorite way to grow, but lets accept the limitations of our artificial environments, lights are great but they are not the sun, and containers and grow tables are really cool, but they are not the earth.



Come on folks, lets get real here.

Right now I am growing with a 70 w hps and some shoplights, in a 2'x2' (wide)x5'(tall) box, and another 1'x1'x2' box with a 23watt flourescent, and that is great, it is all I need and all I have space for, so thank God for indoor techs, I have always bred indoors, whether it was for outdoor or not. and I can get 3-4 generations a year. So don't misunderstand me indoor techs are awesome. I have never bred outdoors, ever, although I have bred for outdoor cultivation, indoors many times for many people, using clone females that had been tested outdoors.

 

[joshuahazen]

... My older cousin smoked Frank for his fist time in 90 ,Soo that'd be some coincedince that a year later or the same year it arrived in the rotten apple...




1luvbigherb

HMMM... 1990, that was the same year a lot of us had our first experience with haze...What a coincidence...

Could it have anything to do with the Seedbank...?

Lets Give props where props are due.
Nevil is the Grandmaster of Haze.
His 5hz really did change the world.
It sure changed mine.







Source:http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/4-talk-s...m-support/5577-1985-seed-bank-catalog-16.html

 

[oscar the rotund]

...I have always bred indoors, whether it was for outdoor or not. and I can get 3-4 generations a year. So don't misunderstand me indoor techs are awesome. I have never bred outdoors, ever, although I have bred for outdoor cultivation...

I seen where people say if you breed indoors it negatively (epigenetics?) effects the plants performance outdoors. These were people with many years of outdoor growing experience. Do you believe that any plant that preformed indoors well will do ok outdoors also? Excluding resistance to certain out door pest.

 

[Donald Mallard]

I seen where people say if you breed indoors it negatively (epigenetics?) effects the plants performance outdoors. These were people with many years of outdoor growing experience. Do you believe that any plant that preformed indoors well will do ok outdoors also? Excluding resistance to certain out door pest.

i do oscar ,
in fact any cannabis plant can be grown outdoors , its indoors the restrictions start ..

 

[Donald Mallard]

No point in arguing but think about it a bit were does potency and the affect of a given strain come from thats right its genetics nothing but genetic and not the area its grown in if what some of you say is true them all cannabis grown indoors would be week and well nothing like the parents grown or ancestors grown once outdoors and that is just not truth.

My advice is do what i did take a clone of a plant you enjoy run it indoors and then run a clone of it out doors and see the differences i did on more than one plant and strain my findings are what i am posting its really that simple guys i stand to gain not a thing by posting this but maybe others reading it will as they will Lorne something.

Just need to ask something about your statement there hempy ..

where you say the area it is grown has nothing to do with potency ,,
why did we like the thai sticks??
was that just due to genetics ,
or was it due to getting the very best from those genetics with a good environment ??
its true genetics dont change , but how they react to their environment does for sure ...

 

[jack hairy]

Well Jack, I must just be spoiled by great N. Cali weather, but on a decent season I will tell you right now, a good outdoor plant properly grown, in general, will yeild at least 10x as much, be denser, and stonier. I don't care how good you can set it up indoors. Have you ever seen a 20lb plant, bone dried and cured? I have, and more than once. I'll give you a hint: It wasn't an indoor plant.

Don't get me wrong, I do great indoors, and I love indoor grows, this is where my roots are and my primary expertise, but if you say indoors is better, that is probably just because you don't know how to grow outdoors, or never have. You can get a certain perfect appearance from an indoor grow, that you can't get outdoors, however that does not translate to more potent, not by a long shot.
Next thing you'll be telling me is that a 1000 watt hps is actually more powerful than the sun. Sure it is...

you have to compare apples to apples, we're talking about a 30 day veg, two month flowering plant, not a monster tree that vegged for 3+months. i could probably do that indoor too, cut a big hole in the floor and grow a 2 story bush and still get 2 harvests a year. that indoor APPEARANCE is from the trichs undamaged by rain and other enviromental conditions. and the sun does have a much better spectrum than we can replicate, but ive done better using a mix of mh and hps than any outdoor bud ive ever seen.
i do need to get out more though

 

[Hemphrey Bogart]

I don't know who's right and who's wrong here, I just know what I saw last year. I plan on doing a similar experiment with some mango haze and black widow I have going right now.

Indoor Mr. Nice ssh mom, from seed:



Outdoor MNS ssh clone from mom plant:



I'd say that the clone plant looks a little bit different from the mom that was done indoors, wouldn't you? If genetics are all that matters, then what was the outdoor ssh doing with pink pistils while the indoor plant had white pistils???? It would seem that the grow environment plays at least a partial role in determining which genes get turned on and which do not.

The outdoor ssh from clone was much better than the mom as far as taste, potency, and high. Of course, shanti recommends taking clones and running them more than once to really see what you got, so I did that. I never ran the clones indoors though, only outdoors.

P.S. I'm not trying to argue with anyone, just posting up my rather limited results.

 

[deran]

hiya mate well i hate to say it but dj is wrong dead wrong the Maui sativa being imported in the early 80s i was getting hold of and i found a few seed in that i grew was as nice or nicer than the bag it came from.

I will say i never grew it indoors but have grown other Hawaiian Maui lines never grown indoors there in Maui indoors here and it was mixed from okay to very good but genetics only played a roll there as they were different lines.

I know some people say the same strain grown out is better than the same grown indoors but i tested this and its not true the potency and affect dont change what does does is yield and the look of the flower indoors they look more resiny and fuller chunky than outdoors oddly inuf.

In all honesty the best way to understand the differences is for people to in fact try this them selfs by running a clone in and out and dont be surprised if you find potency and affect are the same people need to think about it logically and understand its all about the genetics after all.

This is an old Maui line never grown indoors before and then grown indoors she was pushed to her limits in this run as i wanted to see how far she would go very good line think they called her lemon peal low yield but good line.

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heya hempy

i know its about haze, but as it fits like a fist on an eye, another "pure" sat from the islands:

 

[bigherb]

HMMM... 1990, that was the same year a lot of us had our first experience with haze...What a coincidence...

Could it have anything to do with the Seedbank...?

Lets Give props where props are due.
Nevil is the Grandmaster of Haze.
His 5hz really did change the world.
It sure changed mine.







Source:http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/4-talk-s...m-support/5577-1985-seed-bank-catalog-16.html

Much respect to Nevil

NOT SURE if you read my post but i stated all the possiblities to the lineage of our NYC haze's including Nev's SB hybrids.I clearly stated it could

IMO as ive stated in my post it would be some coincedince the nl5haze arrived in NYC in 89 then sampled in 90 .It be intresting to know exactly when the strain was released in 89 n made availble to the u.s .Still you have a testiment to an 85-86 experience.


I always give respect when its due ,Remember Nevil had nothin to do with OHAZE the creator is well and still smokin in the cruz.Nevil has told us in his experience that the 7 plants from SAMS stock were hybrids (burning bush).

Another interesting note which was clearly a sales pitch in the 90 SB catalog description of nl5haze was the line we managed to salavage a few viable seeds from the last crop grown in the us .That is a contradicting statement according to Nevil's post which he states the OHAZE seed stock given to him had labels from 66-70 and as we know the last crop was grown in 81

Hemprey bogart

thanks for sharing your experience


1luvbigherb

 

[Resinfinger]

Thanks everyone for responding to my question.

If I missed this I'm sorry but what is the potential mating for indoor Grail? _____ X G13/hawaiin?

 

[joshuahazen]

I know you did bro, no worries. I wasn't trying to suggest otherwise, just making an observation about the timing.

 

[joshuahazen]

I seen where people say if you breed indoors it negatively (epigenetics?) effects the plants performance outdoors. These were people with many years of outdoor growing experience. Do you believe that any plant that preformed indoors well will do ok outdoors also? Excluding resistance to certain out door pest.

Hi Oscar,
Well I haven't tried every plant, but every plant that I have tried has done just fine, including pest resistance, which is a general function of vigor, and I believe more potent plants repel most pests to a certain extant.

But when I refer to my indoor breeding projects for outdoor grows, I was primarily breeding with samples that had been bred for outdoor cultivation for many years by the people I was working with, and crossing them with 5hz hybrids which had been hybridized to outdoor strains and then been further selected for outdoor performance.

I did this by simply selecting cuttings from the finest females towards the end of the season, so I was essentially cloning buds, and then crossing these with appropriate seedstock to the given microclimate.

 

[bigherb]

Thanks everyone for responding to my question.

If I missed this I'm sorry but what is the potential mating for indoor Grail? _____ X G13/hawaiin?

Its great when we all share our experiences it helps to see things we might not have cosidered before our brothers suggestion or reported experiences some including pics.

Check kangativa post for the latest but if i recall the above mention MM oaxacan and stiil believe that he's considering a Nh male ,if i recall maybe a NH female crossed to the other candidates aswell.

Ive suggested hempy's thai 82 ,i know Nev mentioned a thai similar to the buddah sticks of yesteryear .Id love to see somthing in this direction ,as i havnt seen any sweet about NH IME and IME i dont associate sweet with haze .I hope Nevil follows his heart and does as he wishes but id love to see the spice of yesteryear shine threw in this grail.

I know you did bro, no worries. I wasn't trying to suggest otherwise, just making an observation about the timing

Its all love bro

Anything is possible but its comes down to whats probable


1luvbigherb

 

[hempy]

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

 

[biteme]

as long as we can maintain a respectful discourse here and not argue, i'd like to make a comment from my personal experiences and state that environment was equally important as genetics in the very best mj i have ever seen. the strains i refer to are the jungle reds and it made little difference whether grown in columbia or panama, they were that similar to each other.

all of these plants were grown between the equator and approximatlely 7 degrees north using similar ag methodology which amounted to slash and burn of the existing jungle followed by setting seedlings directly into the burned foilage. this burned plant matter is purportedly a fine fertilizer though environmentalists look down their noses at those employing these techniques today.

these seeds have been around for years but i have yet to see a satisfactory representation of the true panama red as it once was and the one feature i find most lacking is the inability to duplicate the resin production. these dark red buds were so gooey with resin that joints would not light. the best way to smoke this product was to break it up as fine as possible and then allow it to air for a few days. even then, joints would gum up after a few hits and go out.

imho, this sort of resin production is directly attributable to the jungle climate which is obviously difficult to replicate with an indoor garden. it can be done with enough lighting and a humid indoor environ akin to that of some orchid growers, i think? someone could have such a garden now but i have yet to see it although i have seen the work of others who are close, but have yet to match resin production. peace-biteme