Breeding techniques

[Scorpion]

Gday all
What traits have been proven to be sex linked to males and females?
I am very curious to further my knowledge in selecting better breeding plants,as of now I always just field judged the ones I liked ,after I actually smoked them ,I only keep seeds from the females I like the most.
The male/s were always the most vigorous,well rooted,sticky and pleasant aroma...no other way for me to test,I have no Lab.
keep it simple ,like me.

peace

s

 

[GreenintheThumb]

In complete out crosses, it doesn't seem to matter which parent is the male or female.

Why does it matter in selfings or outcrossings?

I'm not aware of any specific traits that inherit in a sex linked fashon in cannabis, although I believe that some traits relating to the flowering parts of the plants, may be carried on sex chromosomes.

Why do you think the traits relating to the flowering parts of the plant are on sex chromosome? Are you sure what an X and Y chromosome really means? I thought you said scientific journals wouldn't offer insight. Good thing the this sex linkage blunder wouldn't be made by someone of your stature, right?

My belief that intersex characteristics are carried on the X, stems from the results of many 1:1 matings done with single females mated to many male siblings. It was pretty much an on or off thing depending on the male.
N.

If it was with multiple male siblings how do you know that it's a sex linked trait?

If intersex traits are on the X why do you think they're sex linked at all? What tools did you use to evaluate this presumption?

 

[joshuahazen]

Gday all
What traits have been proven to be sex linked to males and females?
I am very curious to further my knowledge in selecting better breeding plants,as of now I always just field judged the ones I liked ,after I actually smoked them ,I only keep seeds from the females I like the most.
The male/s were always the most vigorous,well rooted,sticky and pleasant aroma...no other way for me to test,I have no Lab.
keep it simple ,like me.

peace

s

Well Scorp, that works, you may want to try testing the male leaf by smoking it, I have found that really helps as well.

 

[Nevil]

Why does it matter in selfings or outcrossings?

In line breeding, it seems to matter, I'll get to that when I have the software to explain it better.

Good thing the this sex linkage blunder wouldn't be made by someone of your stature, right?

Now there you go again being sarky. If you got something, spit it out. Heckling from the sidelines doesn't serve.
I understand sex linkage patterns of inheritance very well, I just said that I'm not aware of any in cannabis with the possible exception of intersex traits.

If it was with multiple male siblings how do you know that it's a sex linked trait?

If intersex traits are on the X why do you think they're sex linked at all? What tools did you use to evaluate this presumption?

The males were siblings to each other, not necessarily to the female in question. In the cases that lead me to this conclusion, the offending ancestor turned out to be the paternal grandmother. Half of her sons threw hermies regardless of what they were put to.
N.

 

[Ouchie]

In complete out crosses, it doesn't seem to matter which parent is the male or female.

I'm not aware of any specific traits that inherit in a sex linked fashon in cannabis, although I believe that some traits relating to the flowering parts of the plants, may be carried on sex chromosomes. My belief that intersex characteristics are carried on the X, stems from the results of many 1:1 matings done with single females mated to many male siblings. It was pretty much an on or off thing depending on the male.
N.

This is fucking gold right here, thank you so much!

 

[brock1]

[They are dying out due to the low Ne, thats a fact you can't get away from!.]

why are there low number? are you saying that the wild population just doesn't breed? i thing that a daft answer and i never said it wasn't because of low Ne. fact it i agreed it because of a low Ne but the reason why there's a low ne isn't just because of people breeding them to be faster. its also because of a low wild population as well thanks to man like most things. same thing as what we will see from a lot of wild animals because were taking them from the wild and putting them in pens. breeding them so they don't go extinct. it is not a answer as we can see with the cheetahs.


[*And never sold a seed in my life and never intend too!. don't be so judgemental thanks.]

well i apologize for insinuating you do. but i still don't believe you breeding is any better than a large number of people breeding in small number. its 6 or two 3's exactly the same only not putting all your eggs in one basket is always safe.

[Also corn is very much like cannabis.] corn isn't cannabis doesn't matter how alike they are they are different plant's all together. its not treat the same by governments like it or not. you cant fill field's with it even in a country were its legal to. sooner or later you will be growing to much even if there's no law saying how much you can grow. your field's will be burnt and your crops destroyed and your breeding will have been for nothing. resulting in bottle necking the population like has happened with lr's. you don't have to break a actual law to be convicted of breaking them. you just have to contribute to the law being broken and it doesnt even have to be in that same country. fact is corn is a plant that cant even pollinate plants a few meters away. you have to work with big number or get little bits off corn to a cob. resulting in small populations that will bottle neck fast unless you work big number of plants. cannabis on the other hand will pollinate plants a 100 meters away no problem. you only need a little tiny but of pollen from 1 plant to make hundreds of seeds. making large populations of genetically different plant easy.

what i am saying is this a corn cob has 40 corn seeds on a cob from a 1:1 mating say it has 4 cobs to a plant that's 160 seeds if you breed from it it will bottleneck very fast. now if a cannabis plant is breed 1:1 it will make 1000's of genetically different seeds now you cant say that breeding corn and cannabis gives the same diversity from a 1:1 mating that's just not right. the numbers don't ad up do the maths from a 1:1 mating from corn and cannabis. cannabis = more diversity.

now in all honesty you grow 160 corn seeds out from a 1:1 mating and we do some selection work on them and breed the best 10% of the population that's 16 plants from the f1 population that are worth breeding not a lot of diversity there is there and that's generous on the selection 10% as well imoa. so the diversity potential of corn is not really allowing for much selection if you don't want to bottleneck fast agree?

now let do the 1:1 with cannabis. so we have 1000 seeds from a 1:1 mating and we do the selection work on them the same again. then we breed the best 10% of the population that's 100 plants that will be breed from f1's from a 1:1 breeding from cannabis. that's more than 1/2 the original population of corn from a 1:1 mating agree?

so there for how can a plant that make very little seeds from a 1:1 mating be compared to that of a plant that will make 1000's? you cant simple the numbers just don't work out the same. a 1:1 mating with selection from cannabis can be the same as a 1:1 breeding of corn without any selection.

now let's say the thousand seeds are given out in batches of 20 seeds to people who breed from them. that works out exactly the same as the cannabis breeding i just put above for cannabis. so a 1:1 breeding of cannabis with selection= a none selection breeding of corn dose it not? have i got the numbers wrong? ad that to the fact you can regrow or take clones and you can take the numbers a lot higher. something you cant do with corn. corn may have some similarities to cannabis but it's far from the same when it comes to bottlenecking and other things just try making a corn joint to get you high. corn is a lot more limited to breeding diversity and preventing bottlenecking and that what we are comparing here are we not?

now please tell me why corn is the same as cannabis when it comes to bottlenecking? i am here to learn and i just don't get at all how it compares. your not the first to say it dose but none have said how it dose. they just want people to agree which imoa would make me a sheep. sorry i don't just follow the flock for safety its not me at all. like i said in my last post change my mind. it can be done just not by saying its right and you should just believe it.

 

[Unclepeter]

what i am saying is this a corn cob has 40 corn seeds on a cob from a 1:1 mating say it has 4 cobs to a plant that's 160 seeds if you breed from it it will bottleneck very fast. now if a cannabis plant is breed 1:1 it will make 1000's of genetically different seeds now you cant say that breeding corn and cannabis gives the same diversity from a 1:1 mating that's just not right. the numbers don't ad up do the maths from a 1:1 mating from corn and cannabis. cannabis = more diversity.

now in all honesty you grow 160 corn seeds out from a 1:1 mating and we do some selection work on them and breed the best 10% of the population that's 16 plants from the f1 population that are worth breeding not a lot of diversity there is there and that's generous on the selection 10% as well imoa. so the diversity potential of corn is not really allowing for much selection if you don't want to bottleneck fast agree?

now let do the 1:1 with cannabis. so we have 1000 seeds from a 1:1 mating and we do the selection work on them the same again. then we breed the best 10% of the population that's 100 plants that will be breed from f1's from a 1:1 breeding from cannabis. that's more than 1/2 the original population of corn from a 1:1 mating agree?

so there for how can a plant that make very little seeds from a 1:1 mating be compared to that of a plant that will make 1000's? you cant simple the numbers just don't work out the same. a 1:1 mating with selection from cannabis can be the same as a 1:1 breeding of corn without any selection.

now let's say the thousand seeds are given out in batches of 20 seeds to people who breed from them. that works out exactly the same as the cannabis breeding i just put above for cannabis. so a 1:1 breeding of cannabis with selection= a none selection breeding of corn dose it not? have i got the numbers wrong? ad that to the fact you can regrow or take clones and you can take the numbers a lot higher. something you cant do with corn. corn may have some similarities to cannabis but it's far from the same when it comes to bottlenecking and other things just try making a corn joint to get you high. corn is a lot more limited to breeding diversity and preventing bottlenecking and that what we are comparing here are we not?

now please tell me why corn is the same as cannabis when it comes to bottlenecking? i am here to learn and i just don't get at all how it compares. your not the first to say it dose but none have said how it dose. they just want people to agree which imoa would make me a sheep. sorry i don't just follow the flock for safety its not me at all. like i said in my last post change my mind. it can be done just not by saying its right and you should just believe it.

it doesn't matter how many seeds you have, what is within them is the same.. ie the genetic codes within the grain is the same in all the seed be it from 1000 seeds or 100. the diversity within is the same ALL you have is more seeds!.

bottlenecking is rel to the Ne and outcrossers. If you don't think as a crop cannabis has sims to corn in the way to breed them and grow then we are fucked!.

hence for both hybrids are where its at!. hence many clones that you see are very inbred... they long to be outcrossed... only prob is some are carry too many recessives... (wonder why)

you ever had an inbred line and come across the stand out plant that has SI problems?

Mating Systems and Effective Population Size

As the effective population size (Ne) of a population becomes smaller (for example as a result of a bottleneck or a founder event), it becomes more likely that individuals in a population will mate with relatives. As a result, small populations experience an increased degree of inbreeding (F increases) with subsequent higher levels of homozygosity, and lower levels of genotypic diversity. Plant and animal breeders use this principle to fix desirable alleles in populations of domesticated animals and plants. The expected increase of the inbreeding coefficient F in populations with different effective size over time is shown in Figure 16. Populations may exhibit inbreeding depression if Ne becomes too small. Inbreeding depression results from having deleterious recessive alleles that become homozygous (hence are expressed) in inbreeding populations. Inbreeding depression is of great concern for wild animals on the brink of extinction. Inbreeding depression has been hinted at in Phytophthora infestans (Shattock et al. 1986), but has not been conclusively demonstrated for plant pathogens, perhaps because nobody has studied it thus far.

Figure 16. The relationship between effective population size and fixation index. Small populations become inbred more rapidly than large populations, often leading to inbreeding depression. After 50 generations, F=0.70 for an effective population size of 20 individuals, while F=0.05 for a population of 500 individuals.

Because organisms with a sexual cycle undergo meiosis, recombination takes place that shuffles together new combinations of alleles with each sexual cycle. This leads to high levels of genotypic diversity in sexual populations compared to asexual populations. It is thought that sexual reproduction and the consequent independent assortment of genes produces a population that is able to adapt more quickly to a changing environment than an equivalent asexual or inbreeding population. But organisms with regular sexual reproduction are less likely to form coadapted gene complexes that can optimize fitness in a stable environment.

more inbred = less diversity... 1:1 matng is pretty inbred wouldn't you agree?

 

[Unclepeter]

what i am saying is this a corn cob has 40 corn seeds on a cob from a 1:1 mating say it has 4 cobs to a plant that's 160 seeds if you breed from it it will bottleneck very fast. now if a cannabis plant is breed 1:1 it will make 1000's of genetically different seeds now you cant say that breeding corn and cannabis gives the same diversity from a 1:1 mating that's just not right. the numbers don't ad up do the maths from a 1:1 mating from corn and cannabis. cannabis = more diversity.

now in all honesty you grow 160 corn seeds out from a 1:1 mating and we do some selection work on them and breed the best 10% of the population that's 16 plants from the f1 population that are worth breeding not a lot of diversity there is there and that's generous on the selection 10% as well imoa. so the diversity potential of corn is not really allowing for much selection if you don't want to bottleneck fast agree?

now let do the 1:1 with cannabis. so we have 1000 seeds from a 1:1 mating and we do the selection work on them the same again. then we breed the best 10% of the population that's 100 plants that will be breed from f1's from a 1:1 breeding from cannabis. that's more than 1/2 the original population of corn from a 1:1 mating agree?

so there for how can a plant that make very little seeds from a 1:1 mating be compared to that of a plant that will make 1000's? you cant simple the numbers just don't work out the same. a 1:1 mating with selection from cannabis can be the same as a 1:1 breeding of corn without any selection.

now let's say the thousand seeds are given out in batches of 20 seeds to people who breed from them. that works out exactly the same as the cannabis breeding i just put above for cannabis. so a 1:1 breeding of cannabis with selection= a none selection breeding of corn dose it not? have i got the numbers wrong? ad that to the fact you can regrow or take clones and you can take the numbers a lot higher. something you cant do with corn. corn may have some similarities to cannabis but it's far from the same when it comes to bottlenecking and other things just try making a corn joint to get you high. corn is a lot more limited to breeding diversity and preventing bottlenecking and that what we are comparing here are we not?

now please tell me why corn is the same as cannabis when it comes to bottlenecking? i am here to learn and i just don't get at all how it compares. your not the first to say it dose but none have said how it dose. they just want people to agree which imoa would make me a sheep. sorry i don't just follow the flock for safety its not me at all. like i said in my last post change my mind. it can be done just not by saying its right and you should just believe it.

it doesn't matter how many seeds you have, what is within them is the same.. ie the genetic codes within the grain is the same in all the seed be it from 1000 seeds or 100. the diversity within is the same ALL you have is more seeds!.

bottlenecking is rel to the Ne and outcrossers. If you don't think as a crop cannabis has sims to corn in the way to breed them and grow then we are fucked!.

hence for both hybrids are where its at!. hence many clones that you see are very inbred... they long to be outcrossed... only prob is some are carry too many recessives... (wonder why)

Mating Systems and Effective Population Size

As the effective population size (Ne) of a population becomes smaller (for example as a result of a bottleneck or a founder event), it becomes more likely that individuals in a population will mate with relatives. As a result, small populations experience an increased degree of inbreeding (F increases) with subsequent higher levels of homozygosity, and lower levels of genotypic diversity. Plant and animal breeders use this principle to fix desirable alleles in populations of domesticated animals and plants. The expected increase of the inbreeding coefficient F in populations with different effective size over time is shown in Figure 16. Populations may exhibit inbreeding depression if Ne becomes too small. Inbreeding depression results from having deleterious recessive alleles that become homozygous (hence are expressed) in inbreeding populations. Inbreeding depression is of great concern for wild animals on the brink of extinction. Inbreeding depression has been hinted at in Phytophthora infestans (Shattock et al. 1986), but has not been conclusively demonstrated for plant pathogens, perhaps because nobody has studied it thus far.

Figure 16. The relationship between effective population size and fixation index. Small populations become inbred more rapidly than large populations, often leading to inbreeding depression. After 50 generations, F=0.70 for an effective population size of 20 individuals, while F=0.05 for a population of 500 individuals.

Because organisms with a sexual cycle undergo meiosis, recombination takes place that shuffles together new combinations of alleles with each sexual cycle. This leads to high levels of genotypic diversity in sexual populations compared to asexual populations. It is thought that sexual reproduction and the consequent independent assortment of genes produces a population that is able to adapt more quickly to a changing environment than an equivalent asexual or inbreeding population. But organisms with regular sexual reproduction are less likely to form coadapted gene complexes that can optimize fitness in a stable environment.

more inbred = less diversity... 1:1 matng is pretty inbred wouldn't you agree?

 

[Nevil]

If you don't think as a crop cannabis has sims to corn in the way to breed them and grow then we are fucked!.

Now, now Uncle peter, that's a little bit melodramatic.

more inbred = less diversity... 1:1 matng is pretty inbred wouldn't you agree?

We are not talking about doing a 1:1 mating of cannabis and jumping into a spaceship and trying to maintain a complete population on the new homeworld with just those seeds, but even so, I believe that I could manage. 20 or 30 years of inbreeding hasn't killed any lines that I know of.
You seem to be missing the point. The best plant in a field of 1000s of open pollinated plants, still only has one father and one mother. What benefit is it that you grew all those inferior plants from inferior fathers,, if they are not included in future generations?
None! Or were you wanting to include these inferior genetics in your breeding program? It takes a lot longer that way.
Don't you get it? Cannabis is not in danger of extinction. It's everywhere! Landraces are not in danger of extinction, the best inbred lines developed from these landraces by farmers and breeders are and for the most part, you're too late. Not to worry, new IBLs can and are being created as we speak. The varied cannabis genetics that are being spread all over the world and being bred by passionate people as yourself, is the guarantee that your fears will never be realised.
N.

 

[Unclepeter]

Now, now Uncle peter, that's a little bit melodramatic.

then it should fit in well here!

 

[Unclepeter]

You seem to be missing the point. The best plant in a field of 1000s of open pollinated plants, still only has one father and one mother. What benefit is it that you grew all those inferior plants from inferior fathers,, if they are not included in future generations?

then personally I'd self that plant! but still have the seeds from the OP for the future!. and it could have many fathers not just one.

 

[Unclepeter]

We are not talking about doing a 1:1 mating of cannabis and jumping into a spaceship and trying to maintain a complete population on the new homeworld with just those seeds, but even so, I believe that I could manage. 20 or 30 years of inbreeding hasn't killed any lines that I know of.

tell that to this fella, lines are constantly lost due to the use of 1:1 seedlot schemes....

Hello fine people, I just lost a part of my parental stock, which means the end for a part of my strains.

I have lost One male the SFV OG Kush BX1 the dad of most of the new kush line.

This means there is no way for me to reproduce The White OG, Happy Kush, Triple Kush etc.

I cant go in detail how it was lost, but i am all good.

I will list here what was lost:
SFV OG Kush BX2 male
Strawberry Cream
Lemon Larry Bear Cut
Shoreline
Chem D

The rest of my parental stock is all good and safe.


I have been feeling bad for the last 48 hours, didn't know what to do at first, but thought it was important to let you all know right away.

I am not going to sit still, as i was just getting ready for a few bigger productions, I am going to make my kush line more persenol by selecting a few males from the White OG, the Lucifer and the triple kush. Also got some male's never used before.

A lot of time and money has been lost on this, and means a lot of new testing will be needed afther the second version of karma's kush line.

Hoping for all your support, CANT GIVE UP, I will be online less because of this aswell.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=201139

and then we can look at a severe lack of diversity from the use of a single afghan across holland etc.

 

[Nevil]

then personally I'd self that plant! but still have the seeds from the OP for the future!. and it could have many fathers not just one.

And you should go right ahead. But that special plant could have many mates, not many fathers and when you do these matings, I've found it handy to know which are the exact siblings of the best plant, rather than stare at a bag of mixed seed.
I also had backup seeds from the matings that proved to be inferior, but that's all they are, inferior backups. If all goes well you never use them, but if you fuck up, you don't go any further back than you need to.
There are other ways to go than IBLs you know.
N.

 

[Unclepeter]

And you should go right ahead. But that special plant could have many mates, not many fathers and when you do these matings, I've found it handy to know which are the exact siblings of the best plant, rather than stare at a bag of mixed seed.
I also had backup seeds from the matings that proved to be inferior, but that's all they are, inferior backups. If all goes well you never use them, but if you fuck up, you don't go any further back than you need to.
There are other ways to go than IBLs you know.
N.

I believe in population genetics like I have stated before, hence I pull those that don't fit MY needs or I feel are inferior, it may take longer, so you are correct I prefer to stay away from single plant selection... I look at the whole, therefore I find more than one in whatever number... a case example would be C99 to some a marvel for me not!.

And you should go right ahead. But that special plant could have many mates

correct mates not fathers.

 

[Nevil]

What are you working with right now Uncle Peter? Population genetics is more difficult when you are working in a closet. Few people are able to do any large scale selection these days, but maybe you are one of the lucky ones.
N.

 

[Unclepeter]

What are you working with right now Uncle Peter? Population genetics is more difficult when you are working in a closet. Few people are able to do any large scale selection these days, but maybe you are one of the lucky ones.
N.

like yourself I grow in pops of 50 not ideal I agree. I have a few things on the go... I like NL based things mostly... and Shiva types... also have a thing for OPT related strains.. oh and one I think may have come from yourself partly which is the g13/ww though this was crossed out to a NL line by a fella called Heath robinson, thats my fav smoke.. currently going thru F4's of that and from 50 odd popped clearly have 2 populations forming... and then a few inbetweeners.. some of which are outstanding (IMO)..

 

[Ouchie]

like yourself I grow in pops of 50 not ideal I agree. I have a few things on the go... I like NL based things mostly... and Shiva types... also have a thing for OPT related strains.. oh and one I think may have come from yourself partly which is the g13/ww though this was crossed out to a NL line by a fella called Heath robinson, thats my fav smoke.. currently going thru F4's of that and from 50 odd popped clearly have 2 populations forming... and then a few inbetweeners.. some of which are outstanding (IMO)..

Heath's a member here, and one of my personal favorite internet posters God damn legend, I modeled my DWC after him

I haven't seen him online here before, but I'm more that familiar with a ton of his grows, top notch stuff!

This is his Shit grow here, seriously amazing DWC vertical bulb setup. Probably the best I've ever seen.

http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/shit/907-shit.html

 

[Unclepeter]

Heath's a member here, and one of my personal favorite internet posters God damn legend, I modeled my DWC after him

I haven't seen him online here before, but I'm more that familiar with a ton of his grows, top notch stuff!

This is his Shit grow here, seriously amazing DWC vertical bulb setup. Probably the best I've ever seen.

http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/shit/907-shit.html

I like him and his wares myself, a nice fella too. if ever this place needed a mod just to look over things thats ya man!.

 

[Ouchie]

Here's the thread Heath made that literally blew me away

Heaths flooded tube vertical.

 

[nuteburn]

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