Fem seeds and there impact on the future of the species known as cannabis.

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kylebroflovski said:
Hello friend!,

I think you answered your own question. Diversity.

Many people want their seed all the same, I do not. IMO no matter how teriffic a breeder is he can not make one stable plant that suits everybodys individual/medical needs.

My needs as a medical cannabis patient fluctuate throughout the day, so it is nice for me if I have grown a few potent females from seeds with varying phenos/genos that address different symptoms throughout my day/night.

It seems the focus in breeding lately has become stabilizing seeds. IMO this focus on making seed varieties consistent is a result of legal issues and the "elite" idea. People are expecting to plant a seed of an elite variety like "Bubba Kush" and have it look identical to the pix they see on the net after popping 3 beans, as well as sharing other characteristics with the "elite."

IMO seed breeders of the past were not so limited on their end results. Many welcomed diversity as long as each generation was improved in the way the breeder wished. The plants did not have to be such a specific expression of a certain phenotype as seed makers are trying to make today. Just my opinion.

KB :)_~
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But isn't this assuming that the F1 generation of a given hybrid is uniform? I mean, look at something like Super Silver Haze (MNS SSH, of course:)). To my knowledge, that's a 1:1 hybrid F1 and there is a good deal of variation among the phenos.

So do you completely avoid 1:1 hybrids altogether? I know GreenThumb already asked and you didn't want to answer, but I'd sure be interested to know what strains you grow given your stance on 1:1 hybrids.

ESS
 
"So do you completely avoid 1:1 hybrids altogether? I know GreenThumb already asked and you didn't want to answer, but I'd sure be interested to know what strains you grow given your stance on 1:1 hybrids."

No I do not completely avoid 1:1's, nor did I ever say I did. I do however like to know if a breeder is practicing what he is preaching. If I feel a breeder is full of bs then I will let my friends test them to usually find out they were crap.

But you do not buy seeds that I make so why do you care? Isn't this thread about the impact of feminized seeds? Not about what Kyle has in his medical garden?

IMO, I think peoples overly aggressive natures towards their points of view in this thread at the very least demonstrates there possibly is a hidden agenda.

If it smells like a rat and looks like a rat it's probably a skunk IMO.

"Operation seed merchant?" -Nevil

KB 8/_~~
 
Do you think that maybe people would want properly bred gynoecious releases because they get more ladies to select from within a pack. And that breeders might like to make them because it increases the effectiveness of their selections? Why is it always about monie$ in your mind?

Sometimes the agenda is education, can't that be enough?

So are your firends going to test the new feminized MNS 1:1 matings? :p
 
GreenintheThumb said:
So you ganna be getting those new "femminized" MNS releases? ;)

"Anyhow got something coming out for the pain management people...

If you follow anything about the medical marijuana concept and how the name is bounded around nowadays you would think that all cannabis is a long lost medicine for all ailments. But what actually constitutes a strain to be medical? Considering the varietals of indica and sativa are not even recognised in any botanical forum to date, in categorization medical mj is a whole new concept of 4D baseball...

However I have been a part of a small active group of breeders and scientists trying to come up with a seed for the home grower that could be classified as this. We will come out with in in 6 weeks both regular and femminized versions and MNS will be affiliating itself with another seed company who contributed a large proportion of the work to almost complete a 2 year project. We are called the CBD crew and more than this I can not say at this moment until all things are ready. But I believe with a little more help from the community here we will define the constraints for a strain to medical.

Stay tuned all the best Sb "
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Where does he say this m8?

Where's this info from?
 
englishrick said:
nev,,,its not exactly a "position",,,its more like a buch of facts laid out for people who dont undersand what we are talking about,,,,if you dont agree with some of it please pick it out and pull me on it


ESS

bro,,,have you ever seen a seedline turn to sh1t? and wonderd WHY it happend,,,ive seen it happen with UK outdoor varieties,,,some very close friends of mine do the outdoor thing in the UK and they were desperate to make there own seeds,,,,,soon enough everything they had turned to sh1t

emagine you have 1 seed batch,,,,,,,,, 1 batch of seeds to last you a lifetime,,,,1 batch of seeds for every possible enviroment that your plants might encounter,,,1 batch of seeds to create a sustainble population for the future,,,,,

would you use 1:1 matings?

lets say you are breeding indoors and allways from seed,,,if you continualy breed in an niche enviroment devoid of mold,,,how would you breed for future mold resistance?

.....low Ne numbers have a massive effect on the sustainability of a seedline,,,without the apropreate Ne numbers we may aswell accept extintion as an enevitability


il be damed if i let my beloved herb head to extintion
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rick have you ever grown a pure true breeding line im thinking not.

If a single line is pure you are going to do what by useing 2 or 3 or more males to a given fem nothing as all the genetic info for that line is all ready there in a single male and female.

But if the line is not true breeding or pure you have more chance of screwing the line by adding more becouse you are missing the most importent part rick that is testing of the male you plan to use in the line to go on with.

In short rick you have a good female you know its a good female as she smokes nice and gives you a nice affect now being a hybrid she will also express her perental line in the x as will the male now if the male is not a good specimen what are you doing to the line rick your screwing it and why you need to test the male and seed made by that male to that female if the end result is not wat you wanted you then try a diffrent male.

But you hit a intresting point rick that is the male and its importance to the line your breeding.

So by useing 4 un tested males on a proven female going to produce great seed or will a proven male single male produce good seed on a proven female me i would grow the proven male to the proven female seed not the clustor fuck of many un proven males to a proven female.

The importance of the male is raising its head / pollen i see rick lol.

s1 the lack of a male coused massive loss of vigor yet on one hand rick your saying fem seeds are good yet on the other hand your saying you need moltipul males to keep a line strong im a little confused rick.
 
GreenintheThumb said:
No drug cultivars are homozygous. Get real.
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So your trying to say no cannabis strain we grew ever was true breeding / pure and if we threw 10 seeds down all the 10 seeds would grow out and look smoke smell the same all haveing the exact same genetic make up.

Well maybe im just confused and my eyes and mind were playing tricks on me becouse i saw plenty of lines like that were not talking hybrids by the way.

As for being real i am and i have a opinon and stand behind it unlike others that dance to the bet of the main stream.
 
Question - "
GreenintheThumb said:
Do you think that maybe people would want properly bred gynoecious releases because they get more ladies to select from within a pack."

MyOpinion - No not if it means those people will never be able to make there own seeds.

Question -"And that breeders might like to make them because it increases the effectiveness of their selections? Why is it always about monie$ in your mind?"
MyOpinion - No. Breeders will want them because they will prevent anybody from copying their work and they will create a dependent consumer base.

MyOpinion -"No I do not completely avoid 1:1's, nor did I ever say I did. I do however like to know if a breeder is practicing what he is preaching. If I feel a breeder is full of bs then I will let my friends test them to usually find out they were crap."

GittsQuestionRegardingAboveStatementSo are your firends going to test the new feminized MNS 1:1 matings? :p

MyOpinion - No. I have NEVER gotten the impression that Shanti or Nevil are full of BS.
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GoodDaySir!,

KB 8)_~~
 
hempy said:
So your trying to say no cannabis strain we grew ever was true breeding / pure and if we threw 10 seeds down all the 10 seeds would grow out and look smoke smell the same all haveing the exact same genetic make up.
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Yep, that's what I'm saying. The only homozygous drug cultivars were created through a long regiment of selfing.

What were these pure breeding lines of the past...I sure haven't seen anything like that IME.
 
Yep, that's what I'm saying. The only homozygous drug cultivars were created through a long regiment of selfing.
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Which cultivars are we talking about? And what about those created by a long period of inbreeding or are you talking more homozygous than that. And homozygous for what. I've seen many an inbred strain homozygous for mediocrity.
N.
 
More appropriately they are mediocre DUE TO their homozygosity... I would hypothesize this is what you are seeing in the heirloom Broccolli.

Outcrossing species like cannabis and humans (obligate outcrossers) don't do well over generations in tight mating schemes that increase homozygosity- the proof is seen in multiple Royal families - inbreeding and negative traits being fixed into their genome leads to serious genetic problems because inbreeding inevitably leads to fixing of negative traits in the homozygous condition.

Outcrossing species are not able to shed their 'genetic load'.. the deleterious alleles that every single one of us, and every single cannabis plants carry. Try selfing ANY cannabis plant for multiple generations, and just watch the vigour decline progressively through the generations.

Self pollinating species like Tomato have been able to purge their genetic load throughout the ages, leaving their populations free of deleterious alleles. Outcrossing species aren't able to do this, and the negative recessives persist in the homozygous state masked by their homologous counterparts. Only in tight mating schemes (selfing being the tightest, 1:1 matings being only second worse) over generations fixes these alleles and leads to significant loss of vigour.

I'll be back in a couple of days to deal with some previous stuff.... Darwin that Hirata article is from 1927 and I don't think we can really trust it as far as today's standards as evidence.... it wouldn't be published today by any journal of valu IMO. Perhaps next time you are at the library you could look a copy up and post it... your library should have back issues of Genetics- it's a high impact journal and most educational libraries have it in the stacks.

-Chimera

PS_ Kyle I would be happy to discuss my lines with you elsewhere... let's please keep this topic on track and not divert the attention away from the topic... I find it disrespectful to Shanti, Nevil et al to post about my lines here in their forum and besides it's not the topic at hand... I'm not here to spam I'm here to help educate.
 
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Chimera said:
Darwin that Hirata article is from 1927 and I don't think we can really trust it as far as today's standards as evidence.... it wouldn't be published today by any journal of valu IMO. Perhaps next time you are at the library you could look a copy up and post it... your library should have back issues of Genetics- it's a high impact journal and most educational libraries have it in the stacks.

-Chimera
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ahh you're probably right then mate, my bad, i hadn't actually had time to look it up as of yet and thoroughly read it. i'll have to do a good search at the library this coming week. cheers mate

darwin
 
Damn Books, Articles, Sience triva.....What would be nice is to read some first hand experience in layman terms on this subect.....Anybody got something to say ??? What did you as a grower find when trying to make fem seeds ??? What was the next generation like ???
 
Kangativa said:
Damn Books, Articles, Sience triva.....What would be nice is to read some first hand experience in layman terms on this subect.....Anybody got something to say ??? What did you as a grower find when trying to make fem seeds ??? What was the next generation like ???
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haha yeah i know what you mean kangativa, sometimes even for us so called scientists, it's hard to chug through some of the papers with the crazy terms they use, so definitely don't get disheartened, most scientists have the same issues when they look at any area of science outside of their own. and have to google definitions etc to be sure of things.

however sometimes it's hard to describe things and express your thoughts succinctly and accurately without the use of these terms.

but i do agree the laymen's angle on things is often as important and as helpful as the scientists. look at those aboriginal tribesmen who have huge understanding and knowledge of foods and the land etc, though they may not know the science behind it.
 
DarwinsBulldog said:
haha yeah i know what you mean kangativa, sometimes even for us so called scientists, it's hard to chug through some of the papers with the crazy terms they use, so definitely don't get disheartened, most scientists have the same issues when they look at any area of science outside of their own. and have to google definitions etc to be sure of things.

however sometimes it's hard to describe things and express your thoughts succinctly and accurately without the use of these terms.

but i do agree the laymen's angle on things is often as important and as helpful as the scientists. look at those aboriginal tribesmen who have huge understanding and knowledge of foods and the land etc, though they may not know the science behind it.
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Lol.....mate I knew that word science didnt look right when i wrote it......glad you understand, so hehe what have you got to tell me about the questions I ask......or does this need a BBQ:D
 
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