Fem seeds and there impact on the future of the species known as cannabis.
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JessE
Guest
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JessE
Guest
brock1
Active member
Originally Posted by nevil said:
Originally Posted by englishrick said:
i agree 100% but then i dont think fem seeds and selfing are the same thing. this thread was about fem only seeds not regular seed's selfed or not. this thread is getting of track now and making people like hempy look silly for saying fem seed's arent a good thing. though most people are agreeing with him now. but like i sead i agree 100% with what's being sead but feming is just a part of a breeding process not the finished product what it's getting sold as.
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hempy
Guest
i agree 100% but then i dont think fem seeds and selfing are the same thing. this thread was about fem only seeds not regular seed's selfed or not. this thread is getting of track now and making people like hempy look silly for saying fem seed's arent a good thing. though most people are agreeing with him now. but like i sead i agree 100% with what's being sead but feming is just a part of a breeding process not the finished product what it's getting sold as.
hi mate well most fem seeds are just that they are s1 of so called elite clones and of things like widow criticas mass and many more lines from other peoples work they dont have the parents to repruduce the f1 seed them selfs so they get a pack of f1 seed select and make s1 seed of it.
There is a big diffrence from were i sit to useing a reversing technique in breeding to turn a male into a fem to see what he will carrie into the line or x to changeing a fem to a male to then use it to breed and make seed from it.
I realy dont care if i look silly mate my messege and point was made here by makeing s1 growing them out and showing how diffrent they are to the f1 mum and the f2 seed made from the f1 mum.
Males are importent and there is no way nature would of had them in the species if there was no reson for them to be there.
brock1
Active member
totaly agree hempy. i think most do exactly what your saying. some people are contradicting themself's with there post's as well. i dont belive it's right for anyone to put s1 seed's in the same class as breeding with reverse sex plant to make a regular line strain ect or compare them. there a total diffrent thing altogether imoa. as most people have sead inbreeding to close in bed simple wich is exactly what most company's are doing with s1 line breeding with female's only is not perfect ether because it gives the same result's just a few genaration's later. making line's with female's only is a bad practice simple. ading male femals line's is a total diffrent thing wich some people are saying is the same. for example your gow out say shit then you cross it to a selfed female shit sister. yes the first seed might not be to bad then some how the origanal shit disapears in regular form just like g13 ect and all you have is your seed's you made. people seem to be under the impreshion your sorted because you used to sister to make them you can just keep breeding from them without useing a male ever again and your have shit preserved forever.
for real people think this shit is reality and you don't need male's because people allway's go of topic on these thread's. fact's get mixed up with useing male's and not useing them in breeding.
Nevil
Breeder
When I was a kid, I'd ask my Dad, "How come baby animals know what to do when they are born". "Instinct", he'd tell me. Not a very satisfying answer, but over the years it has come to mean something akin to genetic memory or even racial memory. That it exists is undeniable, we just don't understand it very well. Somehow accumulated experience gets stored genetically and is transmitted to future generations.
I'm sure that you are starting to get my drift. In an industry where the emphasis is on producing sinsemilla, even relatively small amounts of pollen floating around in your grow room can seriously impact quality and subsequently, the value of the crop. If your business is seeds, the damage can be worse.
Do we really want to tamper with the sexuality of plants, when we are actually reliant on the sexes being distinct? There are situations where the use of the technique will save a line from extinction. I can imagine a situation where an individual cultivar is so unique, that feminising is the only way to pass the desired trait on, but other than those situations, I think that we are playing with fire.
The biggest danger as I see it is that widespread use of fem seeds, ultimately takes cannabis genetics out of the hands of the people. If all goes well, people don't produce any seed and if they do it's hermie. Many of us have found a few seeds in some really great bud that they'd bought, thanks to that persistent male. Those days may end. In a fem seed dominated market, stray seeds might only come from gender confused bull dykes.
The Single Convention on Alcohol and Drugs, nearly wiped the quality cannabis lines from the face of the earth. It's freedom fighters with a fist full of seeds that have saved the day, (all of you take a bow).
The future of cannabis genetics is still dependant on people with a fist full of seeds. IMO, some of those better be male. As I said before, I can get a real female out of a male, but I can't get a real male out of a female.
N.
I'm sure that you are starting to get my drift. In an industry where the emphasis is on producing sinsemilla, even relatively small amounts of pollen floating around in your grow room can seriously impact quality and subsequently, the value of the crop. If your business is seeds, the damage can be worse.
Do we really want to tamper with the sexuality of plants, when we are actually reliant on the sexes being distinct? There are situations where the use of the technique will save a line from extinction. I can imagine a situation where an individual cultivar is so unique, that feminising is the only way to pass the desired trait on, but other than those situations, I think that we are playing with fire.
The biggest danger as I see it is that widespread use of fem seeds, ultimately takes cannabis genetics out of the hands of the people. If all goes well, people don't produce any seed and if they do it's hermie. Many of us have found a few seeds in some really great bud that they'd bought, thanks to that persistent male. Those days may end. In a fem seed dominated market, stray seeds might only come from gender confused bull dykes.
The Single Convention on Alcohol and Drugs, nearly wiped the quality cannabis lines from the face of the earth. It's freedom fighters with a fist full of seeds that have saved the day, (all of you take a bow).
The future of cannabis genetics is still dependant on people with a fist full of seeds. IMO, some of those better be male. As I said before, I can get a real female out of a male, but I can't get a real male out of a female.
N.
brock1
Active member
i couldn't of put it better mate. no realy i am a bit dumb when it come's to wrighting as i didn't get a proper education.
but them last few word's say it all ( I can get a real female out of a male, but I can't get a real male out of a female.) it's human nature not to miss thing's till there gone.
i agree 100% but then i dont think fem seeds and selfing are the same thing. this thread was about fem only seeds not regular seed's selfed or not. this thread is getting of track now and making people like hempy look silly for saying fem seed's arent a good thing. though most people are agreeing with him now. but like i sead i agree 100% with what's being sead but feming is just a part of a breeding process not the finished product what it's getting sold as.
This whole subject is now blow way out of the topic... Today there is a wide range of genetics for sale more than ever if you ask me... What the hundreds of micro seed breeders are all going to dry up and never make seeds???? Come on... Female seeds are here to stay. And so is MR.NICE. 10 years ago you couldnt buy half the landrace seeds that you can today. The only foreseeable crisis that I can see is the end of known landraces. As even today people in remote place who do have landraces for 40, 60, 100, or more years... Are being asked for that seed... and 90% of the time they want new seed in trade.. So when shanti is traveling to northern India in search of the undisturbed landraces, he will put some away in his vault and maybe someday he will have the only pure xyz landrace. Nevil already pointed out this has happened with Thai landraces....That is the only upcomming crisis is the end of the current global landraces, and this distruction was cause by humans who have sold, traded, or passed a bag of seed weed. You cant stop that and you won't stop fems and you wont stop people like me, shanti, nevil and many , many others from collecting landraces, elite strains, old school strains, and selfed genetics. If anyone feels so positive about this anti fem cause than they should start selling landraces and stabalized breeding strains(ibl) asap to further there cause.
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hempy
Guest
No what we have is 100s of lines that come from a very small genetic pool neville shanti and a few more did that those so called micro seed breeders have re named and throw storys and myths behind to make easy money.
What landrace seeds can you buy today ? the only person i saw offering pure lines was the real seed co the rest that lay claim to sell pure sativas or such offer them in the form of 2 or 3 diffrent lines breed into one line wich is a hybrid and they say its pure panama bit miss leeding if you ask me nothing pure about a 2 or 3 way hybrid.
What happend in thialand was drug iradication done by the US Ausytalian and Thia goverment wich was also done in south america and im thinking many others places reality.
The crisis is fem seeds and the greed and stupidity thats feeding these amatures.
L33t
Well-known member
Hi Nevil,
i was reading a bit about epigenetics recently and it seems the answer may lie there:
"EPIGENETICS AND INHERITANCE
We used to think that a new embryo's epigenome was completely erased and rebuilt from scratch. But this isn't completely true. Some epigenetic tags remain in place as genetic information passes from generation to generation, a process called epigenetic inheritance.
Epigenetic inheritance is an unconventional finding. It goes against the idea that inheritance happens only through the DNA code that passes from parent to offspring. It means that a parent's experiences, in the form of epigenetic tags, can be passed down to future generations.
As unconventional as it may be, there is little doubt that epigenetic inheritance is real. In fact, it explains some strange patterns of inheritance geneticists have been puzzling over for decades.
... "
Full article here:
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/epigenetics/inheritance/
From another article:
"Rethinking The Genetic Theory Of Inheritance: Heritability May Not Be Limited To DNA
ScienceDaily (Jan. 20, 2009) — Scientists at the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health (CAMH) have detected evidence that DNA may not be the only carrier of heritable information; a secondary molecular mechanism called epigenetics may also account for some inherited traits and diseases. These findings challenge the fundamental principles of genetics and inheritance, and potentially provide a new insight into the primary causes of human diseases.
..."
Full article:http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090118200632.htm
Info from one more article:
"Does Environment Influence Genes? Researcher Gives Hard Thoughts On Soft Inheritance
ScienceDaily (Aug. 8, 2006) — Organisms, including humans, all inherit DNA from generation to generation, what biologists call hard inheritance, because the nucleotide sequence of DNA is constant and only changes by rare random mutation as it is passed down the generations.
But there also is evidence, especially in plants, that non-genetic factors modifying the DNA can also be inherited. The modifications of the genetic material take the form of small chemical additions to one of the DNA bases and the alternative packaging of the DNA. These so-called epigenetic modifications are known to be important for turning genes on and off during the course of an organism's life, but their importance in controlling inheritance has been debated. Many biologists are skeptical of any form of soft inheritance, where the genetic material is not constant, believing that it is only genetic information - DNA -- that can be passed onto generations.
Now Eric Richards, Ph.D., professor of biology at Washington University in St. Louis, writing in the May issue of Nature Reviews Genetics, analyzes recent and past research in epigenetics and the history of evolution and proposes that epigenetics should be considered a form of soft inheritance, citing examples in both the plant and mammalian kingdoms.
...."
Full article here: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/08/060807154715.htm
There are many more credible websites/sources that suggest this may well be the case so if you are interested in more answers on the topic I would recommend some research on epigenetic inheritance.I would post more info here but not sure it has to do with the thread topic..if you guys want me to I will post the articles I have found to be worthy to read.
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kylebroflovski
New member
Extinction is Problematic IMO
krk - "The only foreseeable crisis that I can see is the end of known landraces."
I wish that was the only potential PROBLEM. Maybe you should re-read the thread. Better yet I will make a list of a few of the main points.
1. Feminized seeds are hermaphroditic not female.
2. Feminized seeds are usually cheap/fast reproductions (not copies) of the parent plant with a famous name.
3. Fem seeds cost more. WTF? Why?
4. Males contain vital genetic information to assist with survival of the species. Females have different genetics which do not contain these recessives.
5. Completely eliminating these genes could be problematic to survival for the species as a whole. (thats a pretty big forseeable problem IMO)
6. Feminized seeds are BIG BUSINESS in agriculture. Take a plant that people can make seeds for themselves with and turn it into a plant that no longer produces males to make those seeds = no more homemade seeds.
So feminized seeds are CRAP! They are crap for the consumer, they're crap for nature, crap for cannabis.
How much are you feminized fanboys getting paid to take this plant from the public and turn it into big business?? Is a couple of billion dollars for you and your family worth fucking over humanity for eternity???
krk - "The only foreseeable crisis that I can see is the end of known landraces."
I wish that was the only potential PROBLEM. Maybe you should re-read the thread. Better yet I will make a list of a few of the main points.
1. Feminized seeds are hermaphroditic not female.
2. Feminized seeds are usually cheap/fast reproductions (not copies) of the parent plant with a famous name.
3. Fem seeds cost more. WTF? Why?
4. Males contain vital genetic information to assist with survival of the species. Females have different genetics which do not contain these recessives.
5. Completely eliminating these genes could be problematic to survival for the species as a whole. (thats a pretty big forseeable problem IMO)
6. Feminized seeds are BIG BUSINESS in agriculture. Take a plant that people can make seeds for themselves with and turn it into a plant that no longer produces males to make those seeds = no more homemade seeds.
So feminized seeds are CRAP! They are crap for the consumer, they're crap for nature, crap for cannabis.
How much are you feminized fanboys getting paid to take this plant from the public and turn it into big business?? Is a couple of billion dollars for you and your family worth fucking over humanity for eternity???
L33t
Well-known member
Regarding fem seeds+epigenetic inheritance..
"...
It is now possible to characterize some of this seeming heritability—and accompanying statistical turbulence—without invoking heritability at all. This is the world of epigenetic transfer, the ability to pass on a trait without having to stop at a meiotic border. A recent study has demonstrated how a powerful environmental stressor can exert molecular effects that last over a long period. The mechanism is epigenetic. It is the first result to characterize a molecular mechanism, induced by early life stressors, that influences behaviors penetrating into adulthood.
..."
Full article: http://brainrules.blogspot.com/2010/04/epigenetics-of-stress.html
Here is what came to my mind..If powerful environment stressors can effect gene expression via epigenetics and epigenetics can be (at least partially) inherited..then could the seeds produced by seriously stressed parents have inherited bad/unwanted information to the offspring?
If it is possible should we take care to not use parent plants that have been seriously stressed like in the case of most companies that stress plants (usually with chemicals) to make fem seeds?
food for thought..
"...
It is now possible to characterize some of this seeming heritability—and accompanying statistical turbulence—without invoking heritability at all. This is the world of epigenetic transfer, the ability to pass on a trait without having to stop at a meiotic border. A recent study has demonstrated how a powerful environmental stressor can exert molecular effects that last over a long period. The mechanism is epigenetic. It is the first result to characterize a molecular mechanism, induced by early life stressors, that influences behaviors penetrating into adulthood.
..."
Full article: http://brainrules.blogspot.com/2010/04/epigenetics-of-stress.html
Here is what came to my mind..If powerful environment stressors can effect gene expression via epigenetics and epigenetics can be (at least partially) inherited..then could the seeds produced by seriously stressed parents have inherited bad/unwanted information to the offspring?
If it is possible should we take care to not use parent plants that have been seriously stressed like in the case of most companies that stress plants (usually with chemicals) to make fem seeds?
food for thought..
Thats just my point Nevil, if they are all gone then what we ALL have left is a mixed pool of genes and lets not forget 40-60 years ago most not all cannabis was monoecious and look how far it has come in the period from 1960-1990 long before fems were around, thats when the landraces were lost not in the last 20 years. I think what were seeing here is the evolution and a fast evolution at that. What were you not suposed to start your seed sales back in the day Nevil? And looking back you spread hybrids all over the planet..right.??? Maybe some of your hybrids ruined a good landrace or two? Was this good or bad for the evolution? Was it good or bad for DJ to work 1000's of plants at a time to remove herms from the gene pool. You early pioneers set the controles for everything that is today...Some will produce fems and get a bad wrap, others will do it right and never have problems, and always some will hate. Hate is always a bad thing. understanding, compromise and most of all education. There are good fem seeds and there are fem seeds that should never be produced. Educating people on why and how are very important. I see seed companys even now bragging on how there seeds are mostly female because there produced by only "late nanners" these are the folks who need to be educated. There are always going to be "bad or good" practices in breeding, and we can all be more educated because the science is always changing..
There are many things which are upcomming and some maybe more wicked than just fems... What do you think its all going to stop there? No just take a look at this... what will this do when it is as easy as making a batch of fem seeds...
Take just a second and read this below... in five years or so this may be just a previlant as fems... its coming and its so easy.
Sciencedaily Reports.....
A reliable method for producing plants that carry genetic material from only one of their parents has been discovered by plant biologists at UC Davis. The technique, to be published March 25 in the journal Nature, could dramatically speed up the breeding of crop plants for desirable traits.
The discovery came out of a chance observation in the lab that could easily have been written off as an error.
"We were doing completely 'blue skies' research, and we discovered something that is immediately useful," said Simon Chan, assistant professor of plant biology at UC Davis and co-author on the paper.
Like most organisms that reproduce through sex, plants have paired chromosomes, with each parent contributing one chromosome to each pair. Plants and animals with paired chromosomes are called diploid. Their eggs and sperm are haploid, containing only one chromosome from each pair.
Plant breeders want to produce plants that are homozygous -- that carry the same trait on both chromosomes. When such plants are bred, they will pass the trait, such as pest resistance, fruit flavor or drought tolerance, to all of their offspring. But to achieve this, plants usually have to be inbred for several generations to make a plant that will "breed true."
The idea of making a haploid plant with chromosomes from only one parent has been around for decades, Chan said. Haploid plants are immediately homozygous, because they contain only one version of every gene. This produces true-breeding lines instantly, cutting out generations of inbreeding.
Existing techniques to make haploid plants are complicated, require expensive tissue culture and finicky growing conditions for different varieties, and only work with some crop species or varieties. The new method discovered by Chan and postdoctoral scholar Ravi Maruthachalam should work in any plant and does not require tissue culture.
Ravi and Chan were studying a protein called CENH3 in the laboratory plant Arabidopsis thaliana. CENH3 belongs to a group of proteins called histones, which package DNA into chromosomes. Among the histones, CENH3 is found only in the centromere, the part of the chromosome that controls how it is passed to the next generation.
When cells divide, microscopic fibers spread from each end of the cell and attach at the centromeres, then pull the chromosomes apart into new cells. That makes CENH3 essential for life.
Ravi had prepared a modified version of CENH3 tagged with a fluorescent protein, and was trying to breed the genetically modified plants with regular Arabidopsis. According to theory, the cross should have produced offspring containing one mutant gene (from the mother) and one normal gene (from the father). Instead, he got only plants with the normal gene.
"At first we threw them away," Chan said. Then it happened again.
Ravi, who has a master's degree in plant breeding, looked at the plants again and realized that the offspring had only five chromosomes instead of 10, and all from the same parent.
The plants appear to have gone through a process called genome elimination, Chan said. When plants from two different but related species are bred, chromosomes from one of the parents are sometimes eliminated.
Genome elimination is already used to make haploid plants in a few species such as maize and barley. But the new method should be much more widely applicable, Ravi said, because unlike the process for maize and barley, its molecular basis is firmly understood.
"We should be able to create haploid-inducing lines in any crop plant," Ravi said. Once the haploid-inducing lines are created, the technique is easy to use and requires no tissue culture -- breeders could start with seeds. The method would also be useful for scientists trying to study genes in plants, by making it faster to breed genetically pure lines.
After eliminating half the chromosomes, Chan and Ravi had to stimulate the plants to double their remaining chromosomes so that they would have the correct diploid number. Plants with the haploid number of chromosomes are sterile.
The research also casts some interesting light on how species form in plants. CENH3 plays the same crucial role in cell division in all plants and animals. Usually, such important genes are highly conserved -- their DNA is very similar from yeast to whales. But instead, CENH3 is among the fastest-evolving sequences in the genome.
"It may be that centromere differences create barriers to breeding between species," Chan said. Ravi and Chan plan to test this idea by crossing closely-related species.
The work was supported by a grant from the Hellman Family Foundation.
Source:http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0324142012.htm
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JessE
Guest
Getting back on track
Hopefully more people can get a good read of Shanti's article below, without having others bump it from que after reposting it 15 minutes later. Considering Shanti is among the leading experts in cannabis today, his words carry far more weight on a phenomena which has yet to be extensively studied then nearly anyone in the industry today bar an extremely small handful of individuals. None of which can be found at Icrag by the way.
Hopefully more people can get a good read of Shanti's article below, without having others bump it from que after reposting it 15 minutes later. Considering Shanti is among the leading experts in cannabis today, his words carry far more weight on a phenomena which has yet to be extensively studied then nearly anyone in the industry today bar an extremely small handful of individuals. None of which can be found at Icrag by the way.
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Resinfinger
Guest
I think most can figure out where they stopped reading. No need for double posts.
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Scorpion
Guest
Thanks for posting the article Jesse, first time I've had a chance to read it.
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